Private School Trash talk thread

[dangle_snipe]

I love how people are comparing the 4 or 5 teams north of 210 with all the metro teams. Of course the metro area is going to have more success in the tourney, they have probably a 6 times as many teams.

BRB... Only two sections up north and one of them has metro teams in it...

Lulzzzz

[BodyShots]

Did they forget geography when assigning them to the same conference......................................................................................?

Schools don't get assigned to conferences

Tell that to CDH.

[Tenoverpar]

New conferences solution #428

Elk River/Maple Grove/Providence Academy to the Lake
Roseville/F Lake to the NW Sub
Hill to the SEC
Johnson/Como to the Classic
New conference: Tot Grace/CDH/STA/Blake/Breck/SPA/BSM/Minnehaha

[gardetto]

Actually both STA & HM did get assigned to the CSC by the MSHSL. The old St. Paul Suburban was disbanded for the purpose of forcing out Hastings, Woodbury and Park. They were though to be too big and powerful for the remaining 5 schools (NSP, Tartan, Simley, Sibley & SSP). Those 5 wanted to add Richfield, Mahtomedi & Fridley to make 8. They got Richfield & Mahtomedi but the MSHSL placed STA back with them & later added HM. HM had been in the TC Suburban East with WBL, etc. The TCSE was reformed into the SE with the additions of Hastings, Woodbury and Park. The rumor at the time was that SSP was behind the scheme to get rid of those schools to return to hockey glory. It all backfired when they ended up with HM & STA. STA was no power at the time but it was clear they would be when they hired the Vannelli's and built the arena.

PS - I would love to see STA placed in 4AA with HM. It's already become a great rivalry. It would be even better if they met in Sections.

Yep

Not true CSC accepted them before being placed however they applied to 3 other conferences that turned them down had CSC not taken them then they would have been placed.

[Carl Racki]

What about doing a 16 team Tourney? Logistics I know could be an issue. What about true open enrolment? You are free to go where you want. No more transfer rules or anything...Just a crazy thought.

[pioneers]

[quote="Tenoverpar"]New conferences solution #428

Hill to the SEC

/quote]

Maybe for hockey, but for all other sports, the csc works well. Maybe they should just go independent for hockey.

[HShockeywatcher]

What about doing a 16 team Tourney? Logistics I know could be an issue. What about true open enrolment? You are free to go where you want. No more transfer rules or anything...Just a crazy thought.

One thing I have suggested for a long time, which would appease almost everyone and the only issues it would leave would maybe be the top 10 or so schools in football, is for schools to have to make the post season. Instead of sections being what they are they now, they would be 16 or 32 groups from around the state that each have 1 or two meetings with each other, then the top 2 or 4 teams from each section make it to state and are placed in a bracket.

You could do reseeding, different ways of seeding, etc, but it makes it so a section like 6AA can have multiple teams that are good and make it far in the playoffs...

Actually both STA & HM did get assigned to the CSC by the MSHSL. The old St. Paul Suburban was disbanded for the purpose of forcing out Hastings, Woodbury and Park. They were though to be too big and powerful for the remaining 5 schools (NSP, Tartan, Simley, Sibley & SSP). Those 5 wanted to add Richfield, Mahtomedi & Fridley to make 8. They got Richfield & Mahtomedi but the MSHSL placed STA back with them & later added HM. HM had been in the TC Suburban East with WBL, etc. The TCSE was reformed into the SE with the additions of Hastings, Woodbury and Park. The rumor at the time was that SSP was behind the scheme to get rid of those schools to return to hockey glory. It all backfired when they ended up with HM & STA. STA was no power at the time but it was clear they would be when they hired the Vannelli's and built the arena.

PS - I would love to see STA placed in 4AA with HM. It's already become a great rivalry. It would be even better if they met in Sections.

Yep

Not true CSC accepted them before being placed however they applied to 3 other conferences that turned them down had CSC not taken them then they would have been placed.

Knowledge is power

Schools are only placed in a conference as a last resort to not being able to find one.
My original comment still stands about sections; I could see a way for the two to end up in the same section, but it's not likely with how the sections are divided now.

[MrBoDangles]

What about doing a 16 team Tourney? Logistics I know could be an issue. What about true open enrolment? You are free to go where you want. No more transfer rules or anything...Just a crazy thought.

One thing I have suggested for a long time, which would appease almost everyone and the only issues it would leave would maybe be the top 10 or so schools in football, is for schools to have to make the post season. Instead of sections being what they are they now, they would be 16 or 32 groups from around the state that each have 1 or two meetings with each other, then the top 2 or 4 teams from each section make it to state and are placed in a bracket.

You could do reseeding, different ways of seeding, etc, but it makes it so a section like 6AA can have multiple teams that are good and make it far in the playoffs...

Yep

Not true CSC accepted them before being placed however they applied to 3 other conferences that turned them down had CSC not taken them then they would have been placed.

Knowledge is power

Schools are only placed in a conference as a last resort to not being able to find one.
My original comment still stands about sections; I could see a way for the two to end up in the same section, but it's not likely with how the sections are divided now.

Makes ya pretty wimpy then.....

[Nostalgic Nerd]

A thought: there is a distinction to be made between the assembly of a team and what is decided on the ice. I'm amazed at how many anti-privates cannot acknowledge their team's loss, even though in the case of say Hermantown, they blew two 3-goal leads before losing to STA in the 2011 final. Or the way the '06 STA team won the title. It looks to me like those teams just wanted it more. With such emotion-driven hatred, that tends to get lost IMO.

[rainier]

A thought: there is a distinction to be made between the assembly of a team and what is decided on the ice. I'm amazed at how many anti-privates cannot acknowledge their team's loss, even though in the case of say Hermantown, they blew two 3-goal leads before losing to STA in the 2011 final. Or the way the '06 STA team won the title. It looks to me like those teams just wanted it more. With such emotion-driven hatred, that tends to get lost IMO.

Or it could be that STA can accumulate so many top players from the surrounding communities that 70% of their roster is good enough to play in the Elite League while Hermantown will have 2 or 3 Elite players, all from one legitimately A-sized community.

STA wanted it more than Hermantown? Please. Who's likely to be more fired up, the small school looking to take down the private bully or the multi-title winning private who gets more criticism than praise after winning? STA had superior depth and just took over as the games went on, simple as that.

It's not hatred, it's contempt. Keep defending metro private schools being in Class A, it's an easy way for other posters to know who the morons are.

[PuckU126]

Or it could be that STA can accumulate so many top players from the surrounding communities that 70% of their roster is good enough to play in the Elite League while Hermantown will have 2 or 3 Elite players, all from one legitimately A-sized community.

I recall seeing STA's current roster has little to no players that were in the Elite League?

I could be mistaken...

[HShockeywatcher]

A thought: there is a distinction to be made between the assembly of a team and what is decided on the ice. I'm amazed at how many anti-privates cannot acknowledge their team's loss, even though in the case of say Hermantown, they blew two 3-goal leads before losing to STA in the 2011 final. Or the way the '06 STA team won the title. It looks to me like those teams just wanted it more. With such emotion-driven hatred, that tends to get lost IMO.

Or it could be that STA can accumulate so many top players from the surrounding communities that 70% of their roster is good enough to play in the Elite League while Hermantown will have 2 or 3 Elite players, all from one legitimately A-sized community.

STA wanted it more than Hermantown? Please. Who's likely to be more fired up, the small school looking to take down the private bully or the multi-title winning private who gets more criticism than praise after winning? STA had superior depth and just took over as the games went on, simple as that.

It's not hatred, it's contempt. Keep defending metro private schools being in Class A, it's an easy way for other posters to know who the morons are.

For the most part, the only "bully" out there are those who have such a dislike for private schools. There are few who attend private schools and have attended them who have the hatred for public schools and their attendees that is shown to them.

It is so interesting that those opinions seem to change after the games.
All season two years ago everyone was going on and on about how Hermantown was going to dominate at state. They had a three goal lead, blew it, then instead of admitting they simply lost a game, excuses pour out.
Then it started over last year. All season Hermantown was "the best team in the state" and they were going to dominate at state. In the final they had an off game (that result wouldn't happen three times in ten games) and got taken apart, then the excuses ring again.

So, which is it? Are they the disenfranchised team who can't compete, or are they really able to compete? My opinion is that the excuses really take a lot away from a quality program.

Whether you want to admit it or not, Hermantown probably does some of the best recruiting in the state. They have amazing education, very high quality athletics, and the area is a great place to live. They attract many great families to move into their area to raise their families and their kids.

Knowing the other teams in Class A and the success of Hermantown the last few years, why wouldn't they opt up? They lost to EP by 1 two years in a row, regularly compete with Cloquet, beat Grand Rapids 4 years in a row.
What's the plan now? Convince all the good private schools to opt up so they can beat up on smaller teams and "trophy chase" as private schools are accused of. I'm not accusing of anything, or implying anything negative by it, but considering the recent success of the program and the fact that with recent results they would be the 2 or 3 seed in section 7AA most years, and that is without playing East, why wouldn't they opt up?

I don't think being in AA vs A has as much to do with recruiting as people claim, but if even a sliver of it is true, then it couldn't hurt a program that is so competitive. It is also curious to me that being a small school is a reason to stay, despite the fact that a small program half their size like Roseau can play up and have sustained success.

Just throwing some fuel for the discussion out there. I don't know what the answer is. I don't think the current system we have is ideal for any program that is actually good to stay in A. Despite what is said about me, I have the utmost respect for the Hermantown program, just throwing some thoughts out there. The same could be said for many current Class A teams. Ultimately, I don't think there are any teams I have ranked this week that would be "out of their element" in AA...

[OGEE OGELTHORPE]

A thought: there is a distinction to be made between the assembly of a team and what is decided on the ice. I'm amazed at how many anti-privates cannot acknowledge their team's loss, even though in the case of say Hermantown, they blew two 3-goal leads before losing to STA in the 2011 final. Or the way the '06 STA team won the title. It looks to me like those teams just wanted it more. With such emotion-driven hatred, that tends to get lost IMO.

Same trainer as Lance Armstrong.

[Nostalgic Nerd]

A thought: there is a distinction to be made between the assembly of a team and what is decided on the ice. I'm amazed at how many anti-privates cannot acknowledge their team's loss, even though in the case of say Hermantown, they blew two 3-goal leads before losing to STA in the 2011 final. Or the way the '06 STA team won the title. It looks to me like those teams just wanted it more. With such emotion-driven hatred, that tends to get lost IMO.

Or it could be that STA can accumulate so many top players from the surrounding communities that 70% of their roster is good enough to play in the Elite League while Hermantown will have 2 or 3 Elite players, all from one legitimately A-sized community.

STA wanted it more than Hermantown? Please. Who's likely to be more fired up, the small school looking to take down the private bully or the multi-title winning private who gets more criticism than praise after winning? STA had superior depth and just took over as the games went on, simple as that.

It's not hatred, it's contempt. Keep defending metro private schools being in Class A, it's an easy way for other posters to know who the morons are.

Sure it's hatred. You're already drawing conclusions that I support STA sticking in A. Never said I did. I said in all things being equal on the ice, as in a one-goal in which the victor came back from three goals down, twice, I appreciate the way they came back and won, irregardless of public or private connection. It's hatred because you draw these analogies about one team being the underdog who had the spark to race ahead but couldn't maintain the lead because, then, it is an unfair advantage. But never ever under any circumstances should a private be commended for winning. Or that Hermantown can only blame themselves for losing. Yeah, that hatred.

[nahc]

Private schools should have their own playoffs......say what you want, being able to recruit from all over the state (in theory) is a HUGE advantage no matter what school system you belong to and that includes EP and Wyazata.........just not fair......not private school bashing. These are outstanding academic schools on the whole. Athletics though, is a whole nother story in my opinion.

[rainier]

A thought: there is a distinction to be made between the assembly of a team and what is decided on the ice. I'm amazed at how many anti-privates cannot acknowledge their team's loss, even though in the case of say Hermantown, they blew two 3-goal leads before losing to STA in the 2011 final. Or the way the '06 STA team won the title. It looks to me like those teams just wanted it more. With such emotion-driven hatred, that tends to get lost IMO.

Or it could be that STA can accumulate so many top players from the surrounding communities that 70% of their roster is good enough to play in the Elite League while Hermantown will have 2 or 3 Elite players, all from one legitimately A-sized community.

STA wanted it more than Hermantown? Please. Who's likely to be more fired up, the small school looking to take down the private bully or the multi-title winning private who gets more criticism than praise after winning? STA had superior depth and just took over as the games went on, simple as that.

It's not hatred, it's contempt. Keep defending metro private schools being in Class A, it's an easy way for other posters to know who the morons are.

Sure it's hatred. You're already drawing conclusions that I support STA sticking in A. Never said I did. I said in all things being equal on the ice, as in a one-goal in which the victor came back from three goals down, twice, I appreciate the way they came back and won, irregardless of public or private connection. It's hatred because you draw these analogies about one team being the underdog who had the spark to race ahead but couldn't maintain the lead because, then, it is an unfair advantage. But never ever under any circumstances should a private be commended for winning. Or that Hermantown can only blame themselves for losing. Yeah, that hatred.

Fair enough, you don't support private schools. But I find your "STA wanted it more" theory ludicrous.

I'll also allow the hatred characterization. A private school located in a metro area of 2.5 million people celebrating like mad after repeatedly beating a public school from a town of 9,000? What's not to hate about that? You think Hermantown isn't the underdog in these matchups? You think STA doesn't have an obvious advantage over 95% of Class A schools?

I do believe a metro private school should be commended for winning Class A...once. Then it is time to opt up.

A lot of the hatred is well earned.

[nota612er]

I always enjoy reading the banter between Ranier and HSHW....IMO you are both correct in much of what you espouse on this forum.

I have a somewhat unique perspective from most in the Public/Private debate as one of my children lost heartbreaker hockey games to metro privates while playing for the Hawks, but I send my other children to a certain Duluth college prep private school (they don’t play hockey).

Setting – a recent JV Girls basketball game between a Duluth area public and private school at the public school’s gym. Mom from the public school makes a comment after every call or basket the private school makes that “they bought that one”. After she finally yells to her daughter to “take it to the rich kids”, I made my way over to explain how misinformed and offensive her comments were. The public school was winning by double digits and the private school had won 3 games all year. What would she have said if the private school was actually a good team? Sigh.

Most people admire the way the STA’s of the world are coached, play the game and strive academically. They have built programs that are producing “Best in the State” results and are impressive to watch. What irritates many is the uneven playing field in team assembly and perceived sense of entitlement /obliviousness displayed to the world outside their community. While Hermantown has advantages in “recruiting” (based on HSHW definition) over a Hibbing or TRF based on its proximity to Duluth, to infer small, outstate public schools are on an equal footing to the metro privates in team assembly and ability to compete night in/night out with AA teams is just plain incorrect.

No analogy is perfect, but here’s one that hit me while browsing the Boat Show at the DECC last weekend…and quite honestly bothers me far more than the private/public hockey discussion:
You can find maps of all the lakes in Minnesota. If you know what you are looking for, you can quickly find where the walleyes might be hanging out when a nice wind is blowing. You will often find several fishing boats in a line, drifting with the wind over the hot spot. Once a boat finishes a pass, it motors to the upwind side and starts over again with everyone taking their turn. Some people catch nothing, some catch a few and others limit out quickly. Skill, technique, perseverance and a little luck all play into the outcome. Several times a year while this dance is occurring, a shiny, 21’ Ranger with a 250 HP Verado swoops in at full speed and drops anchor right over the hot spot. Mr. Fiberglass found it on the map, his resources got him to the spot and now it was his. When others flip him the bird or anchor within one foot of him to explain the error of his ways, the response revolves around a sense of entitlement and obliviousness to others.
The response is usually, “’I work hard and I deserve this’ or ‘You’re jealous because I have a nicer boat than you’ or best yet ‘It’s a free country, make me move’”. Sigh.

What will be interesting to watch now that STA has made the move is not if they will win an AA championship, but rather if they will still be a school of choice for the discerning hockey parent if they do not.

[joey]

Personally, I've never [it's the money, stupid] understood why the MSHSL hasn't [it's the money, stupid] treated all of these private schools' athletics
programs just as [it's the money, stupid] they treat the Shattuck school's athletic [are you not understanding? it's the money, stupid] programs.

For hockey, the Shattuck team is considered a Midget team, and they play other Midget teams. Why doesn't the MSHSL simply categorize ALL private school athletic [I give up. This guy is just beyond maximum density] squads as Midget-types of teams, wherein they never play against any public school teams, only against other private institution's teams.

I've never understood it. But then again, I'm not exactly the brightest bulb in the fridge.

[rainier]

I always enjoy reading the banter between Ranier and HSHW....IMO you are both correct in much of what you espouse on this forum.

I have a somewhat unique perspective from most in the Public/Private debate as one of my children lost heartbreaker hockey games to metro privates while playing for the Hawks, but I send my other children to a certain Duluth college prep private school (they don’t play hockey).

Setting – a recent JV Girls basketball game between a Duluth area public and private school at the public school’s gym. Mom from the public school makes a comment after every call or basket the private school makes that “they bought that one”. After she finally yells to her daughter to “take it to the rich kids”, I made my way over to explain how misinformed and offensive her comments were. The public school was winning by double digits and the private school had won 3 games all year. What would she have said if the private school was actually a good team? Sigh.

Most people admire the way the STA’s of the world are coached, play the game and strive academically. They have built programs that are producing “Best in the State” results and are impressive to watch. What irritates many is the uneven playing field in team assembly and perceived sense of entitlement /obliviousness displayed to the world outside their community. While Hermantown has advantages in “recruiting” (based on HSHW definition) over a Hibbing or TRF based on its proximity to Duluth, to infer small, outstate public schools are on an equal footing to the metro privates in team assembly and ability to compete night in/night out with AA teams is just plain incorrect.

No analogy is perfect, but here’s one that hit me while browsing the Boat Show at the DECC last weekend…and quite honestly bothers me far more than the private/public hockey discussion:
You can find maps of all the lakes in Minnesota. If you know what you are looking for, you can quickly find where the walleyes might be hanging out when a nice wind is blowing. You will often find several fishing boats in a line, drifting with the wind over the hot spot. Once a boat finishes a pass, it motors to the upwind side and starts over again with everyone taking their turn. Some people catch nothing, some catch a few and others limit out quickly. Skill, technique, perseverance and a little luck all play into the outcome. Several times a year while this dance is occurring, a shiny, 21’ Ranger with a 250 HP Verado swoops in at full speed and drops anchor right over the hot spot. Mr. Fiberglass found it on the map, his resources got him to the spot and now it was his. When others flip him the bird or anchor within one foot of him to explain the error of his ways, the response revolves around a sense of entitlement and obliviousness to others.
The response is usually, “’I work hard and I deserve this’ or ‘You’re jealous because I have a nicer boat than you’ or best yet ‘It’s a free country, make me move’”. Sigh.

What will be interesting to watch now that STA has made the move is not if they will win an AA championship, but rather if they will still be a school of choice for the discerning hockey parent if they do not.

Agreed. The derision (or hatred) we may have toward a private school or any school for that matter should never be directed at the kids. It is the adult decision makers at these schools who are the guilty parties. I think booing or yelling at refs/players at any high school event is super lame. It's high school sports for god's sake! Cheer or shut up.

I'm sure the coaches and players at metro private schools are mostly all fine people and deserve respect, but the stubborn/greedy decision makers and their apologists (especially on this forum) deserve every ounce of contempt they have sown.

[stpaul]

Personally, I've never [it's the money, stupid] understood why the MSHSL hasn't [it's the money, stupid] treated all of these private schools' athletics
programs just as [it's the money, stupid] they treat the Shattuck school's athletic [are you not understanding? it's the money, stupid] programs.

For hockey, the Shattuck team is considered a Midget team, and they play other Midget teams. Why doesn't the MSHSL simply categorize ALL private school athletic [I give up. This guy is just beyond maximum density] squads as Midget-types of teams, wherein they never play against any public school teams, only against other private institution's teams.

I've never understood it. But then again, I'm not exactly the brightest bulb in the fridge.

I think you got it backwards there, Joey. SSM has decided not to have its hockey team participate in the MSHSL. So the MSHSL does not "treat" it as a AAA team. Private schools were allowed to join the MSHSL 39 years ago. Other than on message boards there is nothing afoot to change that.

[PuckU126]

Agreed. The derision (or hatred) we may have toward a private school or any school for that matter should never be directed at the kids. It is the adult decision makers at these schools who are the guilty parties. I think booing or yelling at refs/players at any high school event is super lame. It's high school sports for god's sake! Cheer or shut up.

I'm sure the coaches and players at metro private schools are mostly all fine people and deserve respect, but the stubborn/greedy decision makers and their apologists (especially on this forum) deserve every ounce of contempt they have sown.

Let's set aside private schools in Class A for a moment.

Here's the bottle line... Private schools don't make players go to their school nor play on its team. That decision is made by the player/parent(s).

I repeat, Its PARENTS and the PLAYERS who decided to play for STA, BSM, HM, Breck, etc. Since its not kosher to boo players, blame the parents because they're the one's writing the check to the school.

[rainier]

Agreed. The derision (or hatred) we may have toward a private school or any school for that matter should never be directed at the kids. It is the adult decision makers at these schools who are the guilty parties. I think booing or yelling at refs/players at any high school event is super lame. It's high school sports for god's sake! Cheer or shut up.

I'm sure the coaches and players at metro private schools are mostly all fine people and deserve respect, but the stubborn/greedy decision makers and their apologists (especially on this forum) deserve every ounce of contempt they have sown.

Let's set aside private schools in Class A for a moment.

Here's the bottle line... Private schools don't make players go to their school nor play on its team. That decision is made by the player/parent(s).

I repeat, Its PARENTS and the PLAYERS who decided to play for STA, BSM, HM, Breck, etc. Since its not kosher to boo players, blame the parents because they're the one's writing the check to the school.

Yes, but the parents don't decide if they play in A or AA, which is the real issue.

[Ogie]

A post to "chunk up", as they say in the NLP (Google it) world...

This just shows ta go ya that when you live in the world of markets you shop around and buy what you want...And if you live by what gubbamint has to offer, you take what you get.

Back in the 60s and 70s, the academic excellence migrated away from places like Central, Edison and Johnson, out to places like Bloomington, Burnsville and Mounds View....And the athletics pretty much followed.

Now that the academic mediocrity, fostered by the nature of paternalistic political bureaucracy, has largely turned the suburban schools into drug infested centers of indoctrination and political correctness, the parents who can muster even the most marginal of economic circumstances are sending their kids to fee-for-service (private, if you will) schools...And the athletics have followed.

Even though this is not a political message forum, the politics of having one set of schools run by politicians and another set of schools being governed by free market economics is the 500 lb gorilla in the room.

/rant

[PuckU126]

A post to "chunk up", as they say in the NLP (Google it) world...

This just shows ta go ya that when you live in the world of markets you shop around and buy what you want...And if you live by what gubbamint has to offer, you take what you get.

Back in the 60s and 70s, the academic excellence migrated away from places like Central, Edison and Johnson, out to places like Bloomington, Burnsville and Mounds View....And the athletics pretty much followed.

Now that the academic mediocrity, fostered by the nature of paternalistic political bureaucracy, has largely turned the suburban schools into drug infested centers of indoctrination and political correctness, the parents who can muster even the most marginal of economic circumstances are sending their kids to fee-for-service (private, if you will) schools...And the athletics have followed.

Even though this is not a political message forum, the politics of having one set of schools run by politicians and another set of schools being governed by free market economics is the 500 lb gorilla in the room.

/rant

[rainier]

A post to "chunk up", as they say in the NLP (Google it) world...

This just shows ta go ya that when you live in the world of markets you shop around and buy what you want...And if you live by what gubbamint has to offer, you take what you get.

Back in the 60s and 70s, the academic excellence migrated away from places like Central, Edison and Johnson, out to places like Bloomington, Burnsville and Mounds View....And the athletics pretty much followed.

Now that the academic mediocrity, fostered by the nature of paternalistic political bureaucracy, has largely turned the suburban schools into drug infested centers of indoctrination and political correctness, the parents who can muster even the most marginal of economic circumstances are sending their kids to fee-for-service (private, if you will) schools...And the athletics have followed.

Even though this is not a political message forum, the politics of having one set of schools run by politicians and another set of schools being governed by free market economics is the 500 lb gorilla in the room.

/rant

Have enrollments at private schools increased? Or have they just put more money and emphasis on their athletic programs?

And urban sprawl is/was driven by people wanting to escape a "paternalistic political bureaucracy"? Not buying it.

I didn't know Minnetonka, Eden Prairie, and Edina have turned into "drug infested centers of indoctrination and political correctness." I thought they were actually good schools. Don't you think a private school based on religion and the military might be the most indoctrinating school one could imagine?

If you were aiming to win the most idiotic post in history award, that one has to be considered one of the favorites.