STA

[blueblood]

If opting up to AA goes against the principles of the school as you say, why does STA invest in excellent coaches, have a tier 1 hockey facility, and fill the roster with top end hockey talent?

[deacon]

If opting up to AA goes against the principles of the school as you say, why does STA invest in excellent coaches, have a tier 1 hockey facility, and fill the roster with top end hockey talent?

I don't really have a good answer for this because I don't know how much the coaches get paid but I assume it's not very much, none of the coaches get paid very much there. I'm just about 100% positive the Vanelli's have day jobs. I believe the arena was funded primarily by one large donation ( not going to say who) and then completed with the help from UST. Keep in mind that both the UST men's and women's hockey programs share the facility. The Vanelli's walked into a perfect situation where they probably felt they had the perfect resources to rebuild an awful hockey program.

[blueblood]

Totally agree with your comment about walking into a great situation. Thanks for the non-confrontational and non-emotional response

[HShockeywatcher]

Not all of their talent comes from AA feeder programs but a lot of it definitely does. Honestly, I'm not sure how I feel about the argument that because the majority of the players come AA schools they should therefore play AA hockey. Most of the time the argument goes a little something like this: STA is private school, they recruit, they win, it's a crime they're in A.

Out of curiosity, I went through my old Kaydet's looking for some old records (I'm young, so it's pretty recent). Their record was so bad that they didn't even list it but I think they won maybe 5 games. When I was there, the swimming and diving team was in the middle of winning 8 out of 9 sate titles in class A while producing several All-Americans every year. They never opted up and I doubt they ever considered it. If that is a sign for anything, this argument of whether the hockey team should move up could last quite a while.

As an alumnus of the Academy, I would like to see the hockey team play AA hockey but I'm not going to bothered if they don't. What a lot of people fail to understand is that while coaches and players would like to play AA, the administration doesn't (although that may change in the future, who knows). A shift from class A to class AA would signify a shift in the priorities of the school, that being athletics over academics, which can never happen at a school like STA. I don't think, however, that STA is trophy chasing like many here seem to think. Sure, everyone wants to produce a winner but at STA winning takes a backseat to the founding 4 principles of the school.

There are two issues in contrasting swimming and hockey:
1. Swimming is an individual sport and a TIMED sport. In many of those years their times alone, while swimming against worse competition, would have won them the AA title. Unlike in hockey, in swimming (and cross country and track) you can get a certain time and compare it against other sports.

2. Hockey has this "phenomenon", that only exists in MN High School Hockey, where respect is only given to the teams in the top class.
The best basketball team in the nation last year was a 4A team from Texas (5 classes in all sports) and the Baseball Capital of Texas is a 4A community. In Texas your class is determined by and means ONE thing and one thing only; your enrollment.

Earlier he said:

The academics there are at best on par with the big metro publics

Then he said:

of course STA will have higher average test scores

Then he got mad and said:

Another internet einstein here.

Stop using numbers and fact. They confuse and upset him.

You obviously don't understand what I'm saying. Of course the STA averages will be higher when you have 100% affluent, driven kids. The education there is no better than Eden Prairie, you could learn just as much for free in essentially all SW metro publics.

Why is there this high price tag? A number of factors, but you hit on many of them. Lower class sizes, smaller school, more highly educated teachers, lower paid teachers, fewer distractions, more driven classmates, etc, etc. Which is exactly what you get. Is Eden Prairie (or any other specific school) bad? No. Period. No one would ever say it was or that you cannot get a good education there, or anywhere for that matter.

The constant bickering about our school is smarter and we are better, is rediculous. Those who are calling for STA to move up to AA only have to argue the Point about Hockey. Most of us "public school dummies", dont care if you want to leave the public school community and pay for your childs education! Horray for you! Now to the point. this forum is about High School Hockey and competition. The only point to be made here is that A majority of STA's players come from traditionally stong youth programs around the Metro area that are feeders for succesful AA high schools. On this point alone, STA should move up and compete at the AA. This is not all inlcusive to just STA. Any Metro area Private school who draws there players from large AA feeder programs should step up. This has nothing to do with jealousy. Get off your High horse and stop making excuses. I suppose you are going to tell me that i'm jealous, poor and not as affluent as you are now. My son graduates from a public school this year ad is extreamely happy that i didnt remove him from his friends and local school. By the way, since you are being ignorant about money and opportunities, I could have sent 5 kids to STA. Just because we disagree with you, doesn't mean we are all poor, morons that couldn't fit in with your high society. Enough said. Those of you here to defend STA to the hilt arent on here in the better interest of MN HS Hockey. you have your own agenda and will never agree or give up your useless point.

A few responses:

1. This is honestly the first time I have heard the point about where the players are coming from. It is a good point. While it is a good point, you will also not find anyone on this entire thread that, in the current system, does not want St Thomas up, so it is sort of a mute point.

2. Look up the definition of the word ignorant.

3. You really think that all the good programs in the state opting up is in the better interest of MN High School Hockey? That is called a tier system, it failed already.

4. Look back on this entire thread, or any on this message board for that matter; the only posts made by those from a private school supporting it are in defense after an attack was made. No one comes on here boasting about the program or school. If slanderous and uninformed statements were not made about an institution of high regard in the eyes of many on here, comments supporting it would not be made on here. Many continue to make uninformed and disrespectful statements and you are saying negative things about those who are responding and not to those people?

You think that it is not un-classy to defend and give knowledge about something someone has a lot of pride and honor in being a part of?

[HShockeywatcher]

If opting up to AA goes against the principles of the school as you say, why does STA invest in excellent coaches, have a tier 1 hockey facility, and fill the roster with top end hockey talent?

I don't really have a good answer for this because I don't know how much the coaches get paid but I assume it's not very much, none of the coaches get paid very much there. I'm just about 100% positive the Vanelli's have day jobs. I believe the arena was funded primarily by one large donation ( not going to say who) and then completed with the help from UST. Keep in mind that both the UST men's and women's hockey programs share the facility. The Vanelli's walked into a perfect situation where they probably felt they had the perfect resources to rebuild an awful hockey program.

The other thing I would add, agreeing with all that has been said, is that having an ice arena and a good hockey program is a recruiting tool. When you drive down 66th St in Richfield, what do you see next to Holy Angels? A nice big bubble. Looks pretty cool.

The common idea here, for some reason, is that academics and athletics are mutually exclusive, which is not true.

[deacon]

There are two issues in contrasting swimming and hockey:
1. Swimming is an individual sport and a TIMED sport. In many of those years their times alone, while swimming against worse competition, would have won them the AA title. Unlike in hockey, in swimming (and cross country and track) you can get a certain time and compare it against other sports.

Well, yeah, my only point was that dominating a certain class isn't cause enough to jump up a class. Your point is definitely valid.

[MNmade]

If opting up to AA goes against the principles of the school as you say, why does STA invest in excellent coaches, have a tier 1 hockey facility, and fill the roster with top end hockey talent?

Progress, i.e. new facilities, new books, new teachers, better coaches, etc. is not against the principles of the school. In the eyes of the administration, which does not solely have eyes for hockey trophies, progress guided by the school's principles is what is important. Many parents/players, before there were talented coaches hired or the team was any where near good, complained about the hockey team having practice 20 minutes away from the school in W. St. Paul, having practice at 2nd rate times (many teams shared the ice), not to mention the facility itself was 2nd rate at best.

Progress to those of us hockey nuts on this forum includes talented teams, winning, going to state, winning state, and then (if in A) moving up to AA. These are all after-thoughts in the eyes of the administration. Progress to them is quality students, quality teachers, quality education, quality facilities, quality coaches (that instill more than just WIN, WIN, WIN) in the student athletes. Any of you on here - fathers, sons, players, non-players all know this to be true regardless of the school or program, so don't dispute it.

"Top end talent" is a by-product of progress. Good talent does not become "top end" without coaching, without teamwork, without hard work. STA could recruit the all the very best, and it still does not mean that they guarantee wins. Needless to say, you make it sound like the school pumps out hockey winners as if Wayne Gretzky and Jenny Potter are giving birth to 15 year-olds on skates at the STA ice arena. I don't think it was STA's coaches who claimed the school "reloads" every year. There is no denying that STA has had some phenomenal players in the past years. I will not dispute this plays a huge role in the team's success. But many teams have won with just plain, hardworking kids, and plenty of all-star laden teams have come up short, so I find it hard to believe that the coaches and the school just goes digging for hockey gold to replace varsity kids without bothering to advance their jv up-and-comers.

Reading some of these posts makes me feel sorry for the kids who try their hardest to be a great player in other A programs. It's as if everyone on here is questioning their ability to ever even come close to breathing the same air as a AA or private school kid. Yeah they go to a small school in rural MN, but some of you make it seem like they don't have a frozen pond's chance in h.ell to beat a private school or a big school, and because of this they are "not as good"??

[MrBoDangles]

The STA folks on here are blinded into thinking- that if there IS a little doubt that they will win the A championship- that they must be at the right level.

I don't think there is one person on either side of this discussion that feels they should not move up to AA. Why do you think that is? So if everyone thinks the same thing, do you think it is at all possible that this is why the Hockey community is losing all respect for the program/school?

I remember being excited for STA the first year they started doing good. Only recently, with their scheduling and total domination of the small school class, have I become fed up with them, along with most others.

The only reason the faculty wants to stay at A is because they figure why possibly ruin what we have now. Them saying that they don't want to excell (be known) at a higher level is a lie. I hope we all know that.

The sad truth to all this is that STA will take a large hit from this decision. People now know their angle....... They are hoping to stay a household name by collecting the small program trophy.

Look for this program to take a downward spiral..... Because of the faculty cowards.

[HShockeywatcher]

There are two issues in contrasting swimming and hockey:
1. Swimming is an individual sport and a TIMED sport. In many of those years their times alone, while swimming against worse competition, would have won them the AA title. Unlike in hockey, in swimming (and cross country and track) you can get a certain time and compare it against other sports.

Well, yeah, my only point was that dominating a certain class isn't cause enough to jump up a class. Your point is definitely valid.

Yeah, it's funny no one has a response to this phenomenon in high school hockey

I remember being excited for STA the first year they started doing good. Only recently, with their scheduling and total domination of the small school class, have I become fed up with them, along with most others.

Look for this program to take a downward spiral..... Because of the faculty cowards.

Breck has made it to state 3 of the last 3 years, won the title 2 of those years.
St Thomas hasn't been to state in 3 years, made it to the final this year and had to overcome a 0-3 deficit to win basically a 1 goal game against a public school.

You consider that "total domination"?

[High Flyer]

If opting up to AA goes against the principles of the school as you say, why does STA invest in excellent coaches, have a tier 1 hockey facility, and fill the roster with top end hockey talent?

Progress, i.e. new facilities, new books, new teachers, better coaches, etc. is not against the principles of the school. In the eyes of the administration, which does not solely have eyes for hockey trophies, progress guided by the school's principles is what is important. Many parents/players, before there were talented coaches hired or the team was any where near good, complained about the hockey team having practice 20 minutes away from the school in W. St. Paul, having practice at 2nd rate times (many teams shared the ice), not to mention the facility itself was 2nd rate at best.

Progress to those of us hockey nuts on this forum includes talented teams, winning, going to state, winning state, and then (if in A) moving up to AA. These are all after-thoughts in the eyes of the administration. Progress to them is quality students, quality teachers, quality education, quality facilities, quality coaches (that instill more than just WIN, WIN, WIN) in the student athletes. Any of you on here - fathers, sons, players, non-players all know this to be true regardless of the school or program, so don't dispute it.

"Top end talent" is a by-product of progress. Good talent does not become "top end" without coaching, without teamwork, without hard work. STA could recruit the all the very best, and it still does not mean that they guarantee wins. Needless to say, you make it sound like the school pumps out hockey winners as if Wayne Gretzky and Jenny Potter are giving birth to 15 year-olds on skates at the STA ice arena. I don't think it was STA's coaches who claimed the school "reloads" every year. There is no denying that STA has had some phenomenal players in the past years. I will not dispute this plays a huge role in the team's success. But many teams have won with just plain, hardworking kids, and plenty of all-star laden teams have come up short, so I find it hard to believe that the coaches and the school just goes digging for hockey gold to replace varsity kids without bothering to advance their jv up-and-comers.

Reading some of these posts makes me feel sorry for the kids who try their hardest to be a great player in other A programs. It's as if everyone on here is questioning their ability to ever even come close to breathing the same air as a AA or private school kid. Yeah they go to a small school in rural MN, but some of you make it seem like they don't have a frozen pond's chance in h.ell to beat a private school or a big school, and because of this they are "not as good"?? [-X

One of the best posts ever re. STA, class A/AA & privates

[MrBoDangles]

There are two issues in contrasting swimming and hockey:
1. Swimming is an individual sport and a TIMED sport. In many of those years their times alone, while swimming against worse competition, would have won them the AA title. Unlike in hockey, in swimming (and cross country and track) you can get a certain time and compare it against other sports.

Well, yeah, my only point was that dominating a certain class isn't cause enough to jump up a class. Your point is definitely valid.

Yeah, it's funny no one has a response to this phenomenon in high school hockey

I remember being excited for STA the first year they started doing good. Only recently, with their scheduling and total domination of the small school class, have I become fed up with them, along with most others.

Look for this program to take a downward spiral..... Because of the faculty cowards.

Breck has made it to state 3 of the last 3 years, won the title 2 of those years.
St Thomas hasn't been to state in 3 years, made it to the final this year and had to overcome a 0-3 deficit to win basically a 1 goal game against a public school.

You consider that "total domination"?

Yes, look up dominate in the dictionary.

STA has been the overwhelming favorite the last four years. Breck won the two years after Mahtomedi had the two huge upsets over STA.

STA and Breck are the main two that should of moved up..... They have dominated!

Do you think they should of moved to AA? You say yes..... And then you say no. What is it?

[muckandgrind]

If opting up to AA goes against the principles of the school as you say, why does STA invest in excellent coaches, have a tier 1 hockey facility, and fill the roster with top end hockey talent?

Progress, i.e. new facilities, new books, new teachers, better coaches, etc. is not against the principles of the school. In the eyes of the administration, which does not solely have eyes for hockey trophies, progress guided by the school's principles is what is important. Many parents/players, before there were talented coaches hired or the team was any where near good, complained about the hockey team having practice 20 minutes away from the school in W. St. Paul, having practice at 2nd rate times (many teams shared the ice), not to mention the facility itself was 2nd rate at best.

Progress to those of us hockey nuts on this forum includes talented teams, winning, going to state, winning state, and then (if in A) moving up to AA. These are all after-thoughts in the eyes of the administration. Progress to them is quality students, quality teachers, quality education, quality facilities, quality coaches (that instill more than just WIN, WIN, WIN) in the student athletes. Any of you on here - fathers, sons, players, non-players all know this to be true regardless of the school or program, so don't dispute it.

"Top end talent" is a by-product of progress. Good talent does not become "top end" without coaching, without teamwork, without hard work. STA could recruit the all the very best, and it still does not mean that they guarantee wins. Needless to say, you make it sound like the school pumps out hockey winners as if Wayne Gretzky and Jenny Potter are giving birth to 15 year-olds on skates at the STA ice arena. I don't think it was STA's coaches who claimed the school "reloads" every year. There is no denying that STA has had some phenomenal players in the past years. I will not dispute this plays a huge role in the team's success. But many teams have won with just plain, hardworking kids, and plenty of all-star laden teams have come up short, so I find it hard to believe that the coaches and the school just goes digging for hockey gold to replace varsity kids without bothering to advance their jv up-and-comers.

Reading some of these posts makes me feel sorry for the kids who try their hardest to be a great player in other A programs. It's as if everyone on here is questioning their ability to ever even come close to breathing the same air as a AA or private school kid. Yeah they go to a small school in rural MN, but some of you make it seem like they don't have a frozen pond's chance in h.ell to beat a private school or a big school, and because of this they are "not as good"??

Oh, please. There are lots of great players that come from small schools and no one hold it against them. The topic of this thread is asking whether or not STA should be playing at the higher level. IMO, that is a compliment to STA and their players that most people would prefer to see them take the next step.....because they ARE good enough to compete at the highest level.

Personally, I wish they would just do away COMPLETELY with the AA and A classes. Top 16 teams in the State are seeded into a tournament and go from there to crown THE State Champs. Then we would get a chance to see STA vs. Edina, or Hermantown vs. Hill Murray in the tournament. How much fun would that be?

[MrBoDangles]

If opting up to AA goes against the principles of the school as you say, why does STA invest in excellent coaches, have a tier 1 hockey facility, and fill the roster with top end hockey talent?

Progress, i.e. new facilities, new books, new teachers, better coaches, etc. is not against the principles of the school. In the eyes of the administration, which does not solely have eyes for hockey trophies, progress guided by the school's principles is what is important. Many parents/players, before there were talented coaches hired or the team was any where near good, complained about the hockey team having practice 20 minutes away from the school in W. St. Paul, having practice at 2nd rate times (many teams shared the ice), not to mention the facility itself was 2nd rate at best.

Progress to those of us hockey nuts on this forum includes talented teams, winning, going to state, winning state, and then (if in A) moving up to AA. These are all after-thoughts in the eyes of the administration. Progress to them is quality students, quality teachers, quality education, quality facilities, quality coaches (that instill more than just WIN, WIN, WIN) in the student athletes. Any of you on here - fathers, sons, players, non-players all know this to be true regardless of the school or program, so don't dispute it.

"Top end talent" is a by-product of progress. Good talent does not become "top end" without coaching, without teamwork, without hard work. STA could recruit the all the very best, and it still does not mean that they guarantee wins. Needless to say, you make it sound like the school pumps out hockey winners as if Wayne Gretzky and Jenny Potter are giving birth to 15 year-olds on skates at the STA ice arena. I don't think it was STA's coaches who claimed the school "reloads" every year. There is no denying that STA has had some phenomenal players in the past years. I will not dispute this plays a huge role in the team's success. But many teams have won with just plain, hardworking kids, and plenty of all-star laden teams have come up short, so I find it hard to believe that the coaches and the school just goes digging for hockey gold to replace varsity kids without bothering to advance their jv up-and-comers.

Reading some of these posts makes me feel sorry for the kids who try their hardest to be a great player in other A programs. It's as if everyone on here is questioning their ability to ever even come close to breathing the same air as a AA or private school kid. Yeah they go to a small school in rural MN, but some of you make it seem like they don't have a frozen pond's chance in h.ell to beat a private school or a big school, and because of this they are "not as good"??

One of the best posts ever re. STA, class A/AA & privates

Their goal was to become a Hockey powerhouse. They built the arena and Hockey facilities as a business plan. I know this because I know someone that was involved. They saw the success other private schools were having BECAUSE of their Hockey programs and then put their own plan in to action.

SSM, HM- (teachers losing jobs ~ Lech ) Holy Angels, BSM..... they all know that a Hockey program will make a name. The name will then bring in kids even if they know nothing about Hockey.

STA is sandbagging to bring in kids. This means your post is bunk

[High Flyer]

Progress, i.e. new facilities, new books, new teachers, better coaches, etc. is not against the principles of the school. In the eyes of the administration, which does not solely have eyes for hockey trophies, progress guided by the school's principles is what is important. Many parents/players, before there were talented coaches hired or the team was any where near good, complained about the hockey team having practice 20 minutes away from the school in W. St. Paul, having practice at 2nd rate times (many teams shared the ice), not to mention the facility itself was 2nd rate at best.

Progress to those of us hockey nuts on this forum includes talented teams, winning, going to state, winning state, and then (if in A) moving up to AA. These are all after-thoughts in the eyes of the administration. Progress to them is quality students, quality teachers, quality education, quality facilities, quality coaches (that instill more than just WIN, WIN, WIN) in the student athletes. Any of you on here - fathers, sons, players, non-players all know this to be true regardless of the school or program, so don't dispute it.

"Top end talent" is a by-product of progress. Good talent does not become "top end" without coaching, without teamwork, without hard work. STA could recruit the all the very best, and it still does not mean that they guarantee wins. Needless to say, you make it sound like the school pumps out hockey winners as if Wayne Gretzky and Jenny Potter are giving birth to 15 year-olds on skates at the STA ice arena. I don't think it was STA's coaches who claimed the school "reloads" every year. There is no denying that STA has had some phenomenal players in the past years. I will not dispute this plays a huge role in the team's success. But many teams have won with just plain, hardworking kids, and plenty of all-star laden teams have come up short, so I find it hard to believe that the coaches and the school just goes digging for hockey gold to replace varsity kids without bothering to advance their jv up-and-comers.

Reading some of these posts makes me feel sorry for the kids who try their hardest to be a great player in other A programs. It's as if everyone on here is questioning their ability to ever even come close to breathing the same air as a AA or private school kid. Yeah they go to a small school in rural MN, but some of you make it seem like they don't have a frozen pond's chance in h.ell to beat a private school or a big school, and because of this they are "not as good"?? [-X

One of the best posts ever re. STA, class A/AA & privates

Their goal was to become a Hockey powerhouse. They built the arena and Hockey facilities as a business plan. I know this because I know someone that was involved. They saw the success other private schools were having BECAUSE of their Hockey programs and then put their own plan in to action.

SSM, HM- (teachers losing jobs ~ Lech :idea: :roll: ) Holy Angels, BSM..... they all know that a Hockey program will make a name. The name will then bring in kids even if they know nothing about Hockey.

STA is sandbagging to bring in kids. This means your post is bunk :idea:

You mean to tell me they (STA & UST) actually submited a business plan before building the arena? What a crazy out of the box idea....a business plan.

[MrBoDangles]

One of the best posts ever re. STA, class A/AA & privates

Their goal was to become a Hockey powerhouse. They built the arena and Hockey facilities as a business plan. I know this because I know someone that was involved. They saw the success other private schools were having BECAUSE of their Hockey programs and then put their own plan in to action.

SSM, HM- (teachers losing jobs ~ Lech ) Holy Angels, BSM..... they all know that a Hockey program will make a name. The name will then bring in kids even if they know nothing about Hockey.

STA is sandbagging to bring in kids. This means your post is bunk

You mean to tell me they (STA & UST) actually submited a business plan before building the arena? What a crazy out of the box idea....a business plan.

They saw the success that Hockey was bringing to other PRIVATE schools in the state. Yes, the arena and facilities were built to be able to recruit kids and build a strong program. This, they knew, would make a bigger name for the school and would in turn.... help them be more attractive.

No planning?

[High Flyer]

Their goal was to become a Hockey powerhouse. They built the arena and Hockey facilities as a business plan. I know this because I know someone that was involved. They saw the success other private schools were having BECAUSE of their Hockey programs and then put their own plan in to action.

SSM, HM- (teachers losing jobs ~ Lech :idea: :roll: ) Holy Angels, BSM..... they all know that a Hockey program will make a name. The name will then bring in kids even if they know nothing about Hockey.

STA is sandbagging to bring in kids. This means your post is bunk :idea:

You mean to tell me they (STA & UST) actually submited a business plan before building the arena? What a crazy out of the box idea....a business plan.

This, they knew, would make a bigger name for the school and would in turn.... help them be more attractive.

](*,)

You sure it wasn't this?:

http://www.cadets.com/news?module=news&showitem=640

[MrBoDangles]

You mean to tell me they (STA & UST) actually submited a business plan before building the arena? What a crazy out of the box idea....a business plan.

This, they knew, would make a bigger name for the school and would in turn.... help them be more attractive.

You sure it wasn't this?:

http://www.cadets.com/news?module=news&showitem=640

I'm positive! Read the history of Shattuck St. Mary on Wiki . STA and SSM have BEEN fine educational schools. It was a business plan.

I know that STA followed this same plan.......... STA is afraid to move up.

[HShockeywatcher]

Do you think they should of moved to AA? You say yes..... And then you say no. What is it?

Nope, my opinion hasn't changed:
Under the current optional-tier system we have now, I would like to see them up to help the program continue to strive and improve. However, the phenomenon that exists only in hockey doesn't make sense and I would prefer that the MSHSL were to stop schools from opting up, even if they were to require X private schools to be in the top class.

[MrBoDangles]

Do you think they should of moved to AA? You say yes..... And then you say no. What is it?

Nope, my opinion hasn't changed:
Under the current optional-tier system we have now, I would like to see them up to help the program continue to strive and improve. However, the phenomenon that exists only in hockey doesn't make sense and I would prefer that the MSHSL were to stop schools from opting up, even if they were to require X private schools to be in the top class.

You would like the MSHSL to stop letting schools opt up so STA won't look bad by staying?
You say "it doesn't make sense"??????- TEAMS SHOULD PLAY WITH LIKE COMPETITION TO EARN A STATE TITLE!

You would like them to opt up under the current system? "To continue to strive and improve"........ but on the other hand you want to hold them back?

I give you credit for trying to defend your school, but it's an impossible task.

[HShockeywatcher]

Do you think they should of moved to AA? You say yes..... And then you say no. What is it?

Nope, my opinion hasn't changed:
Under the current optional-tier system we have now, I would like to see them up to help the program continue to strive and improve. However, the phenomenon that exists only in hockey doesn't make sense and I would prefer that the MSHSL were to stop schools from opting up, even if they were to require X private schools to be in the top class.

You would like the MSHSL to stop letting schools opt up so STA won't look bad by staying?
You say "it doesn't make sense"??????- TEAMS SHOULD PLAY WITH LIKE COMPETITION TO EARN A STATE TITLE!

You would like them to opt up under the current system? "To continue to strive and improve"........ but on the other hand you want to hold them back?

I give you credit for trying to defend your school, but it's an impossible task.

Funny how this train of thought only exists in high school hockey. In a class system based on enrollment, you are in a class based on your school's enrollment, nothing else. Allowing schools to opt up, and not down, gives the message that enrollment implies talent, which we all know it doesn't.

As I've said in other threads, I believe the top 64 teams based on enrollment should be in the top class and, until there is enough to create a 3rd class, the lower class will have the rest of the teams.
Since that is not being done, being in the higher class as apposed to the lower, seems to be a recruiting tool.

I took 5 minutes to go through enrollments. Of schools with hockey programs that do not need a co-op to exist (for example, I didn't count MPLS schools) St Thomas is 70th based on enrollment in the state. If the top half of the state were placed in AA, instead of top 64, without opt ups, they would be.

[MrBoDangles]

Nope, my opinion hasn't changed:
Under the current optional-tier system we have now, I would like to see them up to help the program continue to strive and improve. However, the phenomenon that exists only in hockey doesn't make sense and I would prefer that the MSHSL were to stop schools from opting up, even if they were to require X private schools to be in the top class.

You would like the MSHSL to stop letting schools opt up so STA won't look bad by staying?
You say "it doesn't make sense"??????- TEAMS SHOULD PLAY WITH LIKE COMPETITION TO EARN A STATE TITLE!

You would like them to opt up under the current system? "To continue to strive and improve"........ but on the other hand you want to hold them back?

I give you credit for trying to defend your school, but it's an impossible task.

Funny how this train of thought only exists in high school hockey. In a class system based on enrollment, you are in a class based on your school's enrollment, nothing else. Allowing schools to opt up, and not down, gives the message that enrollment implies talent, which we all know it doesn't.

As I've said in other threads, I believe the top 64 teams based on enrollment should be in the top class and, until there is enough to create a 3rd class, the lower class will have the rest of the teams.
Since that is not being done, being in the higher class as apposed to the lower, seems to be a recruiting tool.

I took 5 minutes to go through enrollments. Of schools with hockey programs that do not need a co-op to exist (for example, I didn't count MPLS schools) St Thomas is 70th based on enrollment in the state. If the top half of the state were placed in AA, instead of top 64, without opt ups, they would be.

Totino opted up in football and there are others that have opted up. If this was more of a football state, they would of been put through the grinder for taking so long.....

Where was Roseau in the enrollments?

STA is losing a lot of respect at a rapid rate and that's a shame for all of you guys.

[silentbutdeadly3139]

Funny how this train of thought only exists in high school hockey. In a class system based on enrollment, you are in a class based on your school's enrollment, nothing else. Allowing schools to opt up, and not down, gives the message that enrollment implies talent, which we all know it doesn't.

As I've said in other threads, I believe the top 64 teams based on enrollment should be in the top class and, until there is enough to create a 3rd class, the lower class will have the rest of the teams.
Since that is not being done, being in the higher class as apposed to the lower, seems to be a recruiting tool.

I took 5 minutes to go through enrollments. Of schools with hockey programs that do not need a co-op to exist (for example, I didn't count MPLS schools) St Thomas is 70th based on enrollment in the state. If the top half of the state were placed in AA, instead of top 64, without opt ups, they would be.

But enrollment in a school such as the public schools is typically geographically related NOT chosen for a specific purpose such as hockey. That tilts the scales so enrollment in this case DOES imply talent.

[DmanDad1980]

From followthepuck.com... a very good overview of STA and other private schools... IMO...

Attention St. Thomas Academy: Isn't your move up overdue?

With Holy Family Catholic making the move up to Class AA after only three years of having their own independent hockey program, what is stopping St. Thomas Academy, the 2011 Class A State Champions? St. Thomas Academy hockey is a proven successful program and the Cadets play over 50 percent of their regular season schedule against Class AA teams and prep schools. The Cadets would most likely be welcomed with open arms and better respected by the boys high school hockey fan base if they decided to FINALLY move up. Section 3AA looks like a nice fit for them.

Holy Family Catholic 2011-2012 enrollment: 595 (boys & girls)
Hill-Murray 2011-2012 enrollment: 705 (boys & girls)
Academy of Holy Angels 2011-2012 enrollment: 741 (boys & girls)
St. Thomas Academy 2011-2012 enrollment: 1066 (all boys Academy)*

Additional Information:

*Since I made the post above, I received two emails that the St. Academy enrollment for grades 9 through 12 is actually 534. The Cadets school information can be found here: http://www.cadets.com/page/365

They, the MSHSL (Minnesota State High School League), doubled the number (1066) because it is an all boys school. Not sure why that was necessary but that is what they did. I think all they needed to do was list it as '534 (boys only)'.

One of the emails also suggested, since I was singling out St. Thomas Academy, that I should also call out Breck School, Hermantown, and Blake School to move up as well. They too have had successful hockey programs in recent years. The pro-St. Thomas Academy supporter that emailed me had a good point if we were strictly talking about similar enrollments and successful programs at the Class A level. However, we are talking about an ALL BOYS SCHOOL. They have 534 BOYS. The other three schools, cut in half to represent the number of potential boys, would be Breck (200), Blake (260), Hermantown (313).

My point is that St. Thomas Academy has a much larger pool of boys eligible to play hockey and that they schedule a majority of their games against Class AA teams or prep schools. They play like a Class AA team during the regular season but they go into the Class A tournaments looking like Goliath's big brother.

2010-2011 regular season games vs. Class AA and elite non-MSHSL prep schools:
St. Thomas Academy: 15 out of 25 | 60%
Blake School: 9 out of 25 | 36%
Breck School: 8 out of 25 | 32%
Hermantown: 6 out of 25 | 24%

New Class AA team Holy Family Catholic: 4 out of 24 | 16.7%

If St. Thomas Academy does not want to move up due to their enrollment size, that is absolutely their prerogative. However, if the Cadets argument is that they want to play better competition during the regular season, why does that not stay consistent with deciding to opt up to the Class AA level and play in that tournament where the better teams are?

St. Thomas Academy's record versus Class A schools in the last six years:

91-8-4 (.919 win percentage)

2010-2011: 16-0-0 | CLASS A CHAMPIONS
2009-2010: 13-2-0 (lost to Mahtomedi twice including the Section 4A title game)
2008-2009: 11-2-2 (lost to Duluth Marshall and Mahtomedi, Mahtomedi in the 4A title game)
2007-2008: 16-2-0 (lost to Breck and Duluth Marshall) | CLASS A CHAMPIONS
2006-2007: 17-1-1 (lost to Duluth Marshall at state and tied them regular season) | CLASS A THIRD PLACE
2005-2006: 18-1-1 (lost to Breck, tied Red Wing) | CLASS A CHAMPIONS

If it were not for Mahtomedi, St. Thomas Academy could be, should be looking at four straight Class A titles. But, somehow, Mahtomedi was able to upset St. Thomas Academy not once but twice in the Section 4A playoffs in back-to-back years thanks to some outstanding and timely goaltending by Brad Wohlers of the Zephyrs in both years. Mahtomedi was badly outshot in both games. In the 2010 playoffs, St. Thomas Academy outshot the Zephyrs 45-25. In 2009, 49-23 Cadets.

Some more information for the debate...

[RangeHockeyFan1817]

From followthepuck.com... a very good overview of STA and other private schools... IMO...

Attention St. Thomas Academy: Isn't your move up overdue?

With Holy Family Catholic making the move up to Class AA after only three years of having their own independent hockey program, what is stopping St. Thomas Academy, the 2011 Class A State Champions? St. Thomas Academy hockey is a proven successful program and the Cadets play over 50 percent of their regular season schedule against Class AA teams and prep schools. The Cadets would most likely be welcomed with open arms and better respected by the boys high school hockey fan base if they decided to FINALLY move up. Section 3AA looks like a nice fit for them.

Holy Family Catholic 2011-2012 enrollment: 595 (boys & girls)
Hill-Murray 2011-2012 enrollment: 705 (boys & girls)
Academy of Holy Angels 2011-2012 enrollment: 741 (boys & girls)
St. Thomas Academy 2011-2012 enrollment: 1066 (all boys Academy)*

Additional Information:

*Since I made the post above, I received two emails that the St. Academy enrollment for grades 9 through 12 is actually 534. The Cadets school information can be found here: http://www.cadets.com/page/365

They, the MSHSL (Minnesota State High School League), doubled the number (1066) because it is an all boys school. Not sure why that was necessary but that is what they did. I think all they needed to do was list it as '534 (boys only)'.

One of the emails also suggested, since I was singling out St. Thomas Academy, that I should also call out Breck School, Hermantown, and Blake School to move up as well. They too have had successful hockey programs in recent years. The pro-St. Thomas Academy supporter that emailed me had a good point if we were strictly talking about similar enrollments and successful programs at the Class A level. However, we are talking about an ALL BOYS SCHOOL. They have 534 BOYS. The other three schools, cut in half to represent the number of potential boys, would be Breck (200), Blake (260), Hermantown (313).

My point is that St. Thomas Academy has a much larger pool of boys eligible to play hockey and that they schedule a majority of their games against Class AA teams or prep schools. They play like a Class AA team during the regular season but they go into the Class A tournaments looking like Goliath's big brother.

2010-2011 regular season games vs. Class AA and elite non-MSHSL prep schools:
St. Thomas Academy: 15 out of 25 | 60%
Blake School: 9 out of 25 | 36%
Breck School: 8 out of 25 | 32%
Hermantown: 6 out of 25 | 24%

New Class AA team Holy Family Catholic: 4 out of 24 | 16.7%

If St. Thomas Academy does not want to move up due to their enrollment size, that is absolutely their prerogative. However, if the Cadets argument is that they want to play better competition during the regular season, why does that not stay consistent with deciding to opt up to the Class AA level and play in that tournament where the better teams are?

St. Thomas Academy's record versus Class A schools in the last six years:

91-8-4 (.919 win percentage)

2010-2011: 16-0-0 | CLASS A CHAMPIONS
2009-2010: 13-2-0 (lost to Mahtomedi twice including the Section 4A title game)
2008-2009: 11-2-2 (lost to Duluth Marshall and Mahtomedi, Mahtomedi in the 4A title game)
2007-2008: 16-2-0 (lost to Breck and Duluth Marshall) | CLASS A CHAMPIONS
2006-2007: 17-1-1 (lost to Duluth Marshall at state and tied them regular season) | CLASS A THIRD PLACE
2005-2006: 18-1-1 (lost to Breck, tied Red Wing) | CLASS A CHAMPIONS

If it were not for Mahtomedi, St. Thomas Academy could be, should be looking at four straight Class A titles. But, somehow, Mahtomedi was able to upset St. Thomas Academy not once but twice in the Section 4A playoffs in back-to-back years thanks to some outstanding and timely goaltending by Brad Wohlers of the Zephyrs in both years. Mahtomedi was badly outshot in both games. In the 2010 playoffs, St. Thomas Academy outshot the Zephyrs 45-25. In 2009, 49-23 Cadets.

Some more information for the debate...

Great post using FACTS instead of emotion. The bottom line is clear and that is that they want to keep winning trophies to try to attract more players which equals more students. If they don't want to be known as a "hockey school" they shouldn't use hockey to fill seats at their school. Otherwise they should just man up and admit that hockey has helped their school gain recognition just like they planned and they have outgrown single A. and in the long run, that will help them way more than staying in A.

My only other thoughts on the subject are to the people who try to use the argument about Hermantown and Warroad dominating at times also and to that I would like to say, GOOD. those are the teams that SHOULD be dominating class A, small town schools that play darn good hockey. that is what class A is all about, I would not mind if they never moved up because they are where they should be.

[HawkeyPower]

From followthepuck.com... a very good overview of STA and other private schools... IMO...

Attention St. Thomas Academy: Isn't your move up overdue?

With Holy Family Catholic making the move up to Class AA after only three years of having their own independent hockey program, what is stopping St. Thomas Academy, the 2011 Class A State Champions? St. Thomas Academy hockey is a proven successful program and the Cadets play over 50 percent of their regular season schedule against Class AA teams and prep schools. The Cadets would most likely be welcomed with open arms and better respected by the boys high school hockey fan base if they decided to FINALLY move up. Section 3AA looks like a nice fit for them.

Holy Family Catholic 2011-2012 enrollment: 595 (boys & girls)
Hill-Murray 2011-2012 enrollment: 705 (boys & girls)
Academy of Holy Angels 2011-2012 enrollment: 741 (boys & girls)
St. Thomas Academy 2011-2012 enrollment: 1066 (all boys Academy)*

Additional Information:

*Since I made the post above, I received two emails that the St. Academy enrollment for grades 9 through 12 is actually 534. The Cadets school information can be found here: http://www.cadets.com/page/365

They, the MSHSL (Minnesota State High School League), doubled the number (1066) because it is an all boys school. Not sure why that was necessary but that is what they did. I think all they needed to do was list it as '534 (boys only)'.

One of the emails also suggested, since I was singling out St. Thomas Academy, that I should also call out Breck School, Hermantown, and Blake School to move up as well. They too have had successful hockey programs in recent years. The pro-St. Thomas Academy supporter that emailed me had a good point if we were strictly talking about similar enrollments and successful programs at the Class A level. However, we are talking about an ALL BOYS SCHOOL. They have 534 BOYS. The other three schools, cut in half to represent the number of potential boys, would be Breck (200), Blake (260), Hermantown (313).

My point is that St. Thomas Academy has a much larger pool of boys eligible to play hockey and that they schedule a majority of their games against Class AA teams or prep schools. They play like a Class AA team during the regular season but they go into the Class A tournaments looking like Goliath's big brother.

2010-2011 regular season games vs. Class AA and elite non-MSHSL prep schools:
St. Thomas Academy: 15 out of 25 | 60%
Blake School: 9 out of 25 | 36%
Breck School: 8 out of 25 | 32%
Hermantown: 6 out of 25 | 24%

New Class AA team Holy Family Catholic: 4 out of 24 | 16.7%

If St. Thomas Academy does not want to move up due to their enrollment size, that is absolutely their prerogative. However, if the Cadets argument is that they want to play better competition during the regular season, why does that not stay consistent with deciding to opt up to the Class AA level and play in that tournament where the better teams are?

St. Thomas Academy's record versus Class A schools in the last six years:

91-8-4 (.919 win percentage)

2010-2011: 16-0-0 | CLASS A CHAMPIONS
2009-2010: 13-2-0 (lost to Mahtomedi twice including the Section 4A title game)
2008-2009: 11-2-2 (lost to Duluth Marshall and Mahtomedi, Mahtomedi in the 4A title game)
2007-2008: 16-2-0 (lost to Breck and Duluth Marshall) | CLASS A CHAMPIONS
2006-2007: 17-1-1 (lost to Duluth Marshall at state and tied them regular season) | CLASS A THIRD PLACE
2005-2006: 18-1-1 (lost to Breck, tied Red Wing) | CLASS A CHAMPIONS

If it were not for Mahtomedi, St. Thomas Academy could be, should be looking at four straight Class A titles. But, somehow, Mahtomedi was able to upset St. Thomas Academy not once but twice in the Section 4A playoffs in back-to-back years thanks to some outstanding and timely goaltending by Brad Wohlers of the Zephyrs in both years. Mahtomedi was badly outshot in both games. In the 2010 playoffs, St. Thomas Academy outshot the Zephyrs 45-25. In 2009, 49-23 Cadets.

Some more information for the debate...

Great post using FACTS instead of emotion. The bottom line is clear and that is that they want to keep winning trophies to try to attract more players which equals more students. If they don't want to be known as a "hockey school" they shouldn't use hockey to fill seats at their school. Otherwise they should just man up and admit that hockey has helped their school gain recognition just like they planned and they have outgrown single A. and in the long run, that will help them way more than staying in A.

My only other thoughts on the subject are to the people who try to use the argument about Hermantown and Warroad dominating at times also and to that I would like to say, GOOD. those are the teams that SHOULD be dominating class A, small town schools that play darn good hockey. that is what class A is all about, I would not mind if they never moved up because they are where they should be.