AA teams that opt up

Zamman · Post by **Zamman** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:32 pm

I believe that out east all the "power house" teams are private schools. In MN the powers are mostly public. I of course could be wrong.

PuckU126 · Post by **PuckU126** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:34 pm

Zamman wrote:I believe that out east all the "power house" teams are private schools. In MN the powers are mostly public. I of course could be wrong.

Public out number the private; overall there is a pretty good mix.

Post by **karl(east)** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:52 pm

Cujo wrote:At what point enrollment wise do you have to move up?

The number is somewhere in the 1300s.

The 64 largest schools or co-ops are automatically in AA. Teams can opt up after that, which is why there are 70-some AA programs. They re-assess every two years, and will do so again after this season, though schools can move up or down in the off years if there are school closures or changes in a co-op.

However, that does not use actual enrollment, as they make an adjustment for free/reduced lunch students, as they are less likely to be able to afford or participate in sports.

The MSHSL has a nice page somewhere with this info and all the enrollment numbers they use.

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:36 am

Get rid of the two class system and go back to a one class, Sweet 16 tournament. Eight sections, the top 2 teams from each section make the tournament regardless of size. Or, you keep the A and AA sections and the winner of each section makes the single pool of 16 teams all playing for the one and ONLY state title. That way the "smaller" schools still have an opportunity to get to St. Paul and, as fans, we can hope to see a David knock off a Goliath every now and again.

Now THAT would be fun.

AHA fan · Post by **AHA fan** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:32 am

[quote="TTpuckster"][quote="MNHockeyFan"][quote="Master Recruiter"]every private school should HAVE TO opt up. end of story[/quote]

Teams that HAVE TO opt up are not OPTING! :wink:

I agree with HShockeywatcher - if you're going to have a class system do not allow ANY team to opt up. This would result in two great tournaments. Allowing teams to opt up just dilutes the talent level in Class A.[/quote]

I respectively disagree.

I still like seeing the matchups at the state tournament such as Roseau vrs Edina, or, as will happen this year Bemidji vrs Hill Murray, etc.

So I believe we need to have the option as long as we have a 2 class system.

The best option is to just go back to a 1 Class tournament, period!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:[/quote]

Public, private, opt in opt out...lets just play hockey. Everyone is looking for that angle, well, that is in the players that play the sport. Reality is not always what we think it is. Let the chips fall, kick back and support our players...for one day...then let us all kick ass!!

AHA fan · Post by **AHA fan** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:36 am

[quote="Zamman"]I believe that out east all the "power house" teams are private schools. In MN the powers are mostly public. I of course could be wrong.[/quote]

You are right

DKS1962 · Post by **DKS1962** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:03 am

We need to have 2 classes.
1. Not every town is a hockey town(Roseau) All the
athletes play hockey.
2.Size matters. More kids more athletes
3.Open enrollment. mostly taking place in the metro.

A small out state school with their best hockey class in decades can't
compete with the big schools.
They compete with other sports for the athletes.
They don't have the numbers to begin with so a lot of underclassman are
playing at the varsity level.
Nobody open enrolls to play hockey in a small out state school.

Hockey is a numbers sport. You can win with 6 athletes playing basketball.
Hockey you need depth and that is what the smaller schools lack to compete with the bigs.

AHA fan · Post by **AHA fan** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:19 am

[quote="DKS1962"]We need to have 2 classes.
1. Not every town is a hockey town(Roseau) All the
athletes play hockey.
2.Size matters. More kids more athletes
3.Open enrollment. mostly taking place in the metro.

A small out state school with their best hockey class in decades can't
compete with the big schools.
They compete with other sports for the athletes.
They don't have the numbers to begin with so a lot of underclassman are
playing at the varsity level.
Nobody open enrolls to play hockey in a small out state school.

Hockey is a numbers sport. You can win with 6 athletes playing basketball.
Hockey you need depth and that is what the smaller schools lack to compete with the bigs.[/quote]

Blah, blah blah... the best win because they deserve it, let the games begin...

The X · Post by **The X** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:55 am

AHA fan, no the best do not always win because they deserve it. The best win because they build AAA teams at the high school level and get away with doing it. See Labate, Hurley, and every guy on Holy Angels, are they from Richfield? Having the ability to hand pick your team from the metro and surrounding area is a distinct advantage that no rational person can deny. Personally, I give credit to AHA for playing AA at least and competing with the hockeys powers in the state come section time. The problem lies at the A level, 6 out of 10 ranked teams in A are private schools which is not a surprise to anybody. If you want to build your own program and bring kids in to play fine, just have the nuts to play AA with the big schools. No excuses not to do this, kudos to AHA for realizing this.

HShockeywatcher · Post by **HShockeywatcher** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:22 pm

Howie wrote:AHA fan, no the best do not always win because they deserve it. The best win because they build AAA teams at the high school level and get away with doing it. See Labate, Hurley, and every guy on Holy Angels, are they from Richfield? Having the ability to hand pick your team from the metro and surrounding area is a distinct advantage that no rational person can deny. Personally, I give credit to AHA for playing AA at least and competing with the hockeys powers in the state come section time. The problem lies at the A level, 6 out of 10 ranked teams in A are private schools which is not a surprise to anybody. If you want to build your own program and bring kids in to play fine, just have the nuts to play AA with the big schools. No excuses not to do this, kudos to AHA for realizing this.

If you do not allow opt ups, this is not the case.

The X · Post by **The X** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:11 pm

I agree with your principal idea here HSHW, but the goal in any classification system is to level the playing field. IMO, allowing small schools to opt up is not affecting the level playing field in high school hockey, in fact it should be encouraged if said small public school has the balls to do so. Where the playing field is not level is when private schools are allowed to play in the lower class with all of the obvious advantages. Small public schools with the exception of 1 or 2 on the Canadien border, cannot compete with the big schools or the privates for obvious reasons. This topic is old and really not worth discussing, kudos to the privates that play AA.

MHGr8ness · Post by **MHGr8ness** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:46 pm

If we're going to have two classes (which we should), then nobody should opt up or down. All privates should have their own tourny or else be forced into AA (I prefer). If they care more about academics, then they won't mind the increased competition in AA.

HShockeywatcher · Post by **HShockeywatcher** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:00 pm

MHGr8ness wrote:If we're going to have two classes (which we should), then nobody should opt up or down. All privates should have their own tourny or else be forced into AA (I prefer). If they care more about academics, then they won't mind the increased competition in AA.

Where does it stop? Meadow Creek plays AA in hockey, marhsall plays AAAAA in football, Lakeview Christian Academy runs AA track, Blake/Breck play AAAAA footbal, etc, etc? The list goes on. It really makes no sense.

St Thomas would be fine in AA swimming and Totino would be fine in AAAAA football, but it stops after that. "hockey's different" gets really old after a while.

A private school league works in bigger states, but not in one with a minimal number of teams. It would also decrease the quality of hockey in the MSHSL. The current best team in AA is a private school who will likely not win the tourney.

MHGr8ness · Post by **MHGr8ness** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:16 pm

HShockeywatcher wrote:
MHGr8ness wrote:If we're going to have two classes (which we should), then nobody should opt up or down. All privates should have their own tourny or else be forced into AA (I prefer). If they care more about academics, then they won't mind the increased competition in AA.

Where does it stop? Meadow Creek plays AA in hockey, marhsall plays AAAAA in football, Lakeview Christian Academy runs AA track, Blake/Breck play AAAAA footbal, etc, etc? The list goes on. It really makes no sense.

St Thomas would be fine in AA swimming and Totino would be fine in AAAAA football, but it stops after that. "hockey's different" gets really old after a while.

A private school league works in bigger states, but not in one with a minimal number of teams. It would also decrease the quality of hockey in the MSHSL. The current best team in AA is a private school who will likely not win the tourney.

I'm concerned with private school dominance in class A. Like I said, if they really only care about academics then playing up won't matter too much to them. This could only be in hockey, too, not every sport.

East Side Pioneer Guy · Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:05 am

Two class tournament backers told us that the same teams dominated the one class field and that a two class system would allow less established programs to grow and eventually move up to AA. The Class A tournament is now dominated by a few powers, and I can't think of any team other than BSM that had success in Class A then moved up. Red Wing, Warroad, STA, Marshall all stayed in A. AHA moved up never having made the A field. Based on my cogent analysis

the Class A tournament is a failure.

Allowing teams that move up to play in Section 1AA for the first two seasons may encourage the process. (Geez, what was that a slight to Section 1 hockey?)

defense · Post by **defense** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:19 am

Leave it as is or go back to one class. Having "powers" move to AA only wrecks the integrity of a two class system. I have a theory that the way things are happening right now, eventually AA is going to turn into AAAA basketball: ALL METRO. Now that would be an awesome tournement....

The X · Post by **The X** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:10 am

When the "powers" all have the advantage of obtaining top players from the youth associations across the state it becomes a problem. Clearly when 6 of top 10 in A have that advantage the proof is right in front of people that make these decisions. Anybody can spin it whichever way for their benefit but it is what it is.

HShockeywatcher · Post by **HShockeywatcher** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:17 pm

1. A couple years ago I posted in the minnesota-scores discussion boards about a one class system in all classes. Whether you truly believe that "hockey's different" or not, the reality is that not only is the MSHSL going to do things uniformly for all classes, but what happens in football will happen in all sports.

Playing devil's advocate (arguing against my overall opinion) I suggested that having one class in all sports would be best for every sport. While a state title is amazing and shows that you accomplished a lot, in sports that aren't measured quantitatively with times, the winners of the lower classes could often feel like there was more they could do. Why not compete against all in the state and see how well you can do?

Instead of winning the AA title in football over and over, maybe you make it past a couple teams with enrollments 10x yours and to farther rounds each year. The examples could go on and on, so I won't give specifics, but the best example I would give is from track. The Class A 400m champ generally is quite a ways ahead of the 2nd place finisher. I've never been in those shoes, but were it me, if there were 5 faster times in AA, I'd want to actually race those 5 guys.

2. The one realistic solution I have never heard suggested that would accomplish what many are after is a system where not every team makes the playoffs. Not sure what the percentages are, but many states have systems where only the top teams in a division make the playoffs (sounds like Iowa does from a previous post). In Texas, there are 12 football titles given out and only the top 2 teams from each district of 6-10 teams make the playoffs.

We'd have to pick the size of our tournament, probably 16 or 32 teams, 4 or 5 rounds. With 32 teams (5 rounds), in hockey that'd mean divisions (whatever they become called) of 4 or 5 teams. The last 6 or 8 games of a team's season is played against those teams, the top team (or 2) makes the playoffs. You could either seed or have certain divisions matched up. Either way, you could play whoever you want, and the best teams would end up in the tournament.

In football, this would give us a two class system though, hmmm...

defense wrote:Leave it as is or go back to one class. Having "powers" move to AA only wrecks the integrity of a two class system. I have a theory that the way things are happening right now, eventually AA is going to turn into AAAA basketball: ALL METRO. Now that would be an awesome tournement....

I'm confused. Your first sentence, to me, suggests either a system with opt ups or one class, then your second sentence says opt ups ruin the system.

I doubt it will turn into all metro, as 7AA, 8AA, and 1AA will all be there, but the point is the same.

Howie wrote:When the "powers" all have the advantage of obtaining top players from the youth associations across the state it becomes a problem. Clearly when 6 of top 10 in A have that advantage the proof is right in front of people that make these decisions. Anybody can spin it whichever way for their benefit but it is what it is.

If I had an 11 year old son who was awesome at basketball and was moving to the cities, where do you think I would move? It's not near a private school. There are many public schools around the metro with everything private schools offer and more.

The only "advantage" they have is athletes being able to transfer during high school, which rarely (but sometimes) happens. Beyond that, they offer the same thing the good public school programs do; good teams, good coaches, good cities, good teachers, good schools, good communities, etc.

Also curious who the 6 you speak of are? From my rankings:
#1 St Thomas [1]
#2 Breck [2]
#3 Blake [3]
#5 Totino [4]
#7 Marshall [5]
#16 Lourdes [6]
#17 Cathedral [7]
I can't speak of where the top 4 are getting their players recently personally, but hard to imagine the families who weren't going to those schools anyway would pay the tuition when there are plenty of close public communities. #5, the top go to East, not Marshall. #5, there are 3 AA schools in the same city. #7 with Tech in AA, you and doing well this year, hard to claim that.

blainehockeymom · Post by **blainehockeymom** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:14 pm

How do teams move up? Is there a coaches meeting at the end of the season? Do teams just say they want to move up and move up instantly? and If teams such as St. Thomas, Breck, Totino, and Blake move up what sections would they be placed in?

HShockeywatcher · Post by **HShockeywatcher** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:18 pm

blainehockeymom wrote:How do teams move up? Is there a coaches meeting at the end of the season? Do teams just say they want to move up and move up instantly? and If teams such as St. Thomas, Breck, Totino, and Blake move up what sections would they be placed in?

Not sure the logistics of the first 3 questions.

As far as the sections, if they can move up between realignments, most likely the same section they're in now.
If they can't, it appears all of the teams in each class are divided geographically, so in theory they'd be part of that division.

MHGr8ness · Post by **MHGr8ness** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:35 pm

HShockeywatcher wrote:1. A couple years ago I posted in the minnesota-scores discussion boards about a one class system in all classes. Whether you truly believe that "hockey's different" or not, the reality is that not only is the MSHSL going to do things uniformly for all classes, but what happens in football will happen in all sports.

Playing devil's advocate (arguing against my overall opinion) I suggested that having one class in all sports would be best for every sport. While a state title is amazing and shows that you accomplished a lot, in sports that aren't measured quantitatively with times, the winners of the lower classes could often feel like there was more they could do. Why not compete against all in the state and see how well you can do?

Instead of winning the AA title in football over and over, maybe you make it past a couple teams with enrollments 10x yours and to farther rounds each year. The examples could go on and on, so I won't give specifics, but the best example I would give is from track. The Class A 400m champ generally is quite a ways ahead of the 2nd place finisher. I've never been in those shoes, but were it me, if there were 5 faster times in AA, I'd want to actually race those 5 guys.

2. The one realistic solution I have never heard suggested that would accomplish what many are after is a system where not every team makes the playoffs. Not sure what the percentages are, but many states have systems where only the top teams in a division make the playoffs (sounds like Iowa does from a previous post). In Texas, there are 12 football titles given out and only the top 2 teams from each district of 6-10 teams make the playoffs.

We'd have to pick the size of our tournament, probably 16 or 32 teams, 4 or 5 rounds. With 32 teams (5 rounds), in hockey that'd mean divisions (whatever they become called) of 4 or 5 teams. The last 6 or 8 games of a team's season is played against those teams, the top team (or 2) makes the playoffs. You could either seed or have certain divisions matched up. Either way, you could play whoever you want, and the best teams would end up in the tournament.

In football, this would give us a two class system though, hmmm...

defense wrote:Leave it as is or go back to one class. Having "powers" move to AA only wrecks the integrity of a two class system. I have a theory that the way things are happening right now, eventually AA is going to turn into AAAA basketball: ALL METRO. Now that would be an awesome tournement....
I'm confused. Your first sentence, to me, suggests either a system with opt ups or one class, then your second sentence says opt ups ruin the system.

I doubt it will turn into all metro, as 7AA, 8AA, and 1AA will all be there, but the point is the same.

Howie wrote:When the "powers" all have the advantage of obtaining top players from the youth associations across the state it becomes a problem. Clearly when 6 of top 10 in A have that advantage the proof is right in front of people that make these decisions. Anybody can spin it whichever way for their benefit but it is what it is.
If I had an 11 year old son who was awesome at basketball and was moving to the cities, where do you think I would move? It's not near a private school. There are many public schools around the metro with everything private schools offer and more.

The only "advantage" they have is athletes being able to transfer during high school, which rarely (but sometimes) happens. Beyond that, they offer the same thing the good public school programs do; good teams, good coaches, good cities, good teachers, good schools, good communities, etc.

Also curious who the 6 you speak of are? From my rankings:
#1 St Thomas [1]
#2 Breck [2]
#3 Blake [3]
#5 Totino [4]
#7 Marshall [5]
#16 Lourdes [6]
#17 Cathedral [7]
I can't speak of where the top 4 are getting their players recently personally, but hard to imagine the families who weren't going to those schools anyway would pay the tuition when there are plenty of close public communities. #5, the top go to East, not Marshall. #5, there are 3 AA schools in the same city. #7 with Tech in AA, you and doing well this year, hard to claim that.

The four you can't speak for are the top four though (the main ones people want up). Tech is pretty good this year, not usually very good and how about Apollo? Almost always bad in comparison to their always good class A private counterpart Cathedral. There are 3 AA in Rochester, but How many of them are ranked? Lourdes is

goldy313 · Post by **goldy313** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:00 am

Hockeywatcher......

What goes in 1 sport does not go in every sport. i.e. Baseball and wrestling each have 3 classes although each sport puts teams in class differently. Top 64 AAA for wrestling, top 96 are AAA for baseball. To make my point further Boys and girls tennis each to things differently. The bottom line is what the individual coaches association recommends is what the MSHSL does in most cases. Hockey is different but so is baseball, wrestling, football, tennis, etc.

Class A is, generally, less competitive than the classes up. If you're seeded #1 individually or as a team your chances of winning at the section level are higher than at higher levels. That ratio isn't close. Of cours AA or the highest level have their dominant teams as well; Apple Valley in wrestling, Hopkins BB, EP or Cretin in football. That closes the gap but still doesn't eliminate it.

I'm mixed on the private schools opt up....Should Sleepy Eye be AA because they co-op with with St. Mary's? Should Lourdes be allowed to stay in A because they co-op with Stewartville? Some of these schools need to co-op to field a team others co-op to allow other kids a chance to participate. Do those get punished because STA dominates?

I can say this, at least in football there is a push to force privates to play 1 class up. Only 2 private schoosl plays at the same level as their public counterpart; Sleepe Eye St. Mary's and Cretin (who opt up). At lower levels, especially 3A privates from big towns dominate

formerlybackofnet · Post by **formerlybackofnet** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:41 am

Cujo wrote:At what point enrollment wise do you have to move up?

It's not just based on enrollment. If I have it right, the number of kids on paid lunch programs, also has an effect. I think Johnson high school is big enough enrollment wise, but the demographics allow them to opt down.

defense · Post by **defense** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:27 am

HShockeywatcher wrote:1. A couple years ago I posted in the minnesota-scores discussion boards about a one class system in all classes. Whether you truly believe that "hockey's different" or not, the reality is that not only is the MSHSL going to do things uniformly for all classes, but what happens in football will happen in all sports.

Playing devil's advocate (arguing against my overall opinion) I suggested that having one class in all sports would be best for every sport. While a state title is amazing and shows that you accomplished a lot, in sports that aren't measured quantitatively with times, the winners of the lower classes could often feel like there was more they could do. Why not compete against all in the state and see how well you can do?

Instead of winning the AA title in football over and over, maybe you make it past a couple teams with enrollments 10x yours and to farther rounds each year. The examples could go on and on, so I won't give specifics, but the best example I would give is from track. The Class A 400m champ generally is quite a ways ahead of the 2nd place finisher. I've never been in those shoes, but were it me, if there were 5 faster times in AA, I'd want to actually race those 5 guys.

2. The one realistic solution I have never heard suggested that would accomplish what many are after is a system where not every team makes the playoffs. Not sure what the percentages are, but many states have systems where only the top teams in a division make the playoffs (sounds like Iowa does from a previous post). In Texas, there are 12 football titles given out and only the top 2 teams from each district of 6-10 teams make the playoffs.

We'd have to pick the size of our tournament, probably 16 or 32 teams, 4 or 5 rounds. With 32 teams (5 rounds), in hockey that'd mean divisions (whatever they become called) of 4 or 5 teams. The last 6 or 8 games of a team's season is played against those teams, the top team (or 2) makes the playoffs. You could either seed or have certain divisions matched up. Either way, you could play whoever you want, and the best teams would end up in the tournament.

In football, this would give us a two class system though, hmmm...

defense wrote:Leave it as is or go back to one class. Having "powers" move to AA only wrecks the integrity of a two class system. I have a theory that the way things are happening right now, eventually AA is going to turn into AAAA basketball: ALL METRO. Now that would be an awesome tournement....
I'm confused. Your first sentence, to me, suggests either a system with opt ups or one class, then your second sentence says opt ups ruin the system.

I doubt it will turn into all metro, as 7AA, 8AA, and 1AA will all be there, but the point is the same.

Howie wrote:When the "powers" all have the advantage of obtaining top players from the youth associations across the state it becomes a problem. Clearly when 6 of top 10 in A have that advantage the proof is right in front of people that make these decisions. Anybody can spin it whichever way for their benefit but it is what it is.
If I had an 11 year old son who was awesome at basketball and was moving to the cities, where do you think I would move? It's not near a private school. There are many public schools around the metro with everything private schools offer and more.

The only "advantage" they have is athletes being able to transfer during high school, which rarely (but sometimes) happens. Beyond that, they offer the same thing the good public school programs do; good teams, good coaches, good cities, good teachers, good schools, good communities, etc.

Also curious who the 6 you speak of are? From my rankings:
#1 St Thomas [1]
#2 Breck [2]
#3 Blake [3]
#5 Totino [4]
#7 Marshall [5]
#16 Lourdes [6]
#17 Cathedral [7]
I can't speak of where the top 4 are getting their players recently personally, but hard to imagine the families who weren't going to those schools anyway would pay the tuition when there are plenty of close public communities. #5, the top go to East, not Marshall. #5, there are 3 AA schools in the same city. #7 with Tech in AA, you and doing well this year, hard to claim that.

OK, i get it: Leave the teams that belong in class a based on enrollment in class a, Let the "monsters" stay in AA. This way class A's integrity is not lost.

TheClipper · Post by **TheClipper** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:32 pm

Let me make a deal with some of you:

For those of you wishing to put all private schools in a separate tourney. Or, for those of you who want all private schools classified as AA, you have my support. But only if the Class A Championship Trophy, or All Public School Trophy bears this inscription.....

........................"The Best Of What Was Left".

HighSchoolHockeyForums.com

AA teams that opt up

Should private school powerhouses be forced to opt up?

Class A Teams Opting Up