I have witnessed subtle "attacks" on this board (and also in conversations with other hockey parents) about CODP. I really do not understand this. Hux mentioned some facts about CODP, is that all it takes to launch attacks?
My daughter has been part of CODP for 4 years. It has been an outstanding program for her. She has been blessed with some excellent coaches on various teams over the years, but I firmly believe that CODP has been the best hockey investment we have made. It is undoubtedly the program (for my daughter) that has had the most positive impact on developing her confidence and hockey skills. At some point my daughter will no longer be in CODP, but what she has learned there (not just about hockey, but also life long lessons like “hard work feels good and generally pays off”) is invaluable. She works really hard there, but has fun too (a pretty good combination!)
Is CODP the ONLY program a player can be involved in? Obviously not. Is Jack Blatherwick at CODP sessions today? No he's not, but he was there the first year my daughter was involved, and the same basic principles he espoused then are still in place. Do the people involved in CODP make money? I'm sure, but please point out to me exactly which clinics, spring leagues, tournaments, etc. are being run for free? I've had two kids in hockey. Over the years we have paid a lot of money to people for various activities. CODP is no cheaper, but not more expensive either. It makes no difference to me whether I’m paying my money to an individual, a “for profit” organization or a “non-profit”. Does it really make a difference to anyone out there how CODP is organized? If so, I’d love to hear exactly how it makes a difference
Also the message that CODP is “disorganized” is misleading, if not just flat out wrong. Summer CODP has always (in our experience over the past 4 years) been well organized. Spring CODP has likewise been extremely well organized. It is true that CODP launched a fall program last year that (I heard) had a few issues with booking games. Does that mean those same issues will be there this year? Does it mean that all of CODP is disorganized? I don’t think so.
The whole “too many injuries” thing is similarly a questionable charge. I have a few questions I would love the HS coach Thunderbird mentioned to answer, including: How many kids were in his/her “sample”? Since he/she supposedly used to recommend the program, did kids never have injuries before, and now injuries are popping up right and left? Do only CODP kids get injuries? What percentage of CODP kids have injuries? What type of injuries? Do kids in other programs ever have injuries? What exactly is it that CODP is doing wrong? Is it having kids skate hard on the ice? Maybe it’s having them do some dryland after practice? (Of course if that’s the issue, we probably should get that new Herb Brooks training center at the NSC shut down!) Saying that a coach no longer recommends CODP based on “too many injuries” sounds to me more like someone has a personal problem with the people running the program, and is trying to manufacture “issues” in order to undermine it.
So why all the CODP attacks? The people that run CODP are not perfect (but I don’t think any of the rest of us are either!). Is there ANY clinic or program that is run perfectly? I’m sure anyone running a program realizes some things work, and some things don’t, and adjustments are made. I am also sure that there is NO PROGRAM that will make EVERY player and parent happy.
Have MOST of the best graduating players for the Twin Cities been involved in CODP over the past decade? Are there still good players working hard and getting better in CODP today? Will there be strong players developing skills in CODP in the future? Will good players who work hard in CODP “get noticed”? The answer to all these questions is "yes".
On the other hand, if you feel OS, or some other similar program, is the best program, then great! Just like CODP has been wonderful for my daughter, maybe OS will be perfect for yours. It’s wonderful that there are other fine programs - go, enjoy and develop those skills! Do whatever works for you. Why do people like Thunderbird feel it is necessary to cast a negative light on CODP? If some other clinic / program is great, then book it for your kid, and even share the message of it’s virtues. But I question why it's really necessary to rip down CODP to do that. In fact the more attacks there are on CODP the more it looks to me like personal vendettas, and the less it looks like a recommendation for something better.
Keeping Focus
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
A couple givens about all these programs. First, they are all over-rated. Second, they are all over-priced. Third, they all try to proclaim that they are the best. Anyone who has been around hockey knows this. None of these program will transform a B player into an A player. And the A players will be A players irregardless of any camps / programs they attend.
The various programs essentially keep players in shape and playing during the offseason. That's really about it. I think the best offseason program would be just to have the players play pick-up hockey once or twice a week; and leave it at that. That would be the cheapest and I think most beneficial. The driven players will do the off-ice stuff on their own.
The various programs essentially keep players in shape and playing during the offseason. That's really about it. I think the best offseason program would be just to have the players play pick-up hockey once or twice a week; and leave it at that. That would be the cheapest and I think most beneficial. The driven players will do the off-ice stuff on their own.
xwildfan wrote:A couple givens about all these programs. First, they are all over-rated. Second, they are all over-priced. Third, they all try to proclaim that they are the best. Anyone who has been around hockey knows this. None of these program will transform a B player into an A player. And the A players will be A players irregardless of any camps / programs they attend.
The various programs essentially keep players in shape and playing during the offseason. That's really about it. I think the best offseason program would be just to have the players play pick-up hockey once or twice a week; and leave it at that. That would be the cheapest and I think most beneficial. The driven players will do the off-ice stuff on their own.
Well said xwildfan! All these programs do in the end is keep the kids active and in shape. Which you could probably also get (off-ice) at your local YMCA if you hooked up with a trainer there.
The problem as I see it with CODP is that as Thunderbird said it was the only elite program a few years back and with so much competition now is trying to retain its former glory when in actuality it has no connection with the olympic team process anymore. There still is that nagging worry among some parents that if they don't send little Emily to CODP she will be blackballed when other opportunities arise. Yes, so silly, but I have had parents of younger girls just getting to the CODP age ask me just that. So don't knock Thunderbird for stating facts. CODP can't escape some criticism, it was the first and the one the others patterned their programs after. When you are on top you take the most heat.
The only question is whether CODP is still on top.
It's called 'hockey parent paranoia'. C'mon you all know a few parents who have succumbed to this. It starts innocently enough with the invitation to play on just one more spring team because she's playing up this time, gee that will get her noticed. It expands eventually for some to accepting every invitation to the Elite Classic, Super Series, Minnesota Selects, and so on just so her name will be out there in the program, surely that will get her seen?
That is the dreaded downward spiral to avoid oh ye parents of younger hockey standouts hat look like gee they could be Ms Hockey someday couldn't they, and on and on it goes.
That is the dreaded downward spiral to avoid oh ye parents of younger hockey standouts hat look like gee they could be Ms Hockey someday couldn't they, and on and on it goes.
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finance_gal
- Posts: 185
- Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:58 pm
codp, os, ndp they are all just another hockey camp, the quality of instruction and training available here in minnesota is so awesome that a player can get the same type of instruction in pretty much any of these programs, it's all a matter of preference. personally I like OS because it seems the most orginized to me, some people may like other programs for other reasons. But as womens hockey keeps growing you'll find that there is no one elite program that fits all people and the pipeline to olympic glory is not simply going through a couple camps. as the pool of very good players grows they will start placing importance on a players heart more than there skills because there will be so many of the same players skillwise, and thats something a camp just can't teach
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hshockeyfan91
- Posts: 84
- Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 12:25 pm
I disagree!
I agree (as I said before!) that CODP is not the "be all and end all" of clinics. It is ONE good clinic. There are others that are good too. There could be others that are even better. But, I have seen CODP and know that it is indeed a good option – a solid choice - the people that run CODP do a good job developing skills.
However, I disagree with the cavalier attitude in the previous few posts. "Just play a little unstructured hockey", "workout on your own", "play soccer", etc. In moderation all of these comments make a limited amount of sense. But I 100% guarantee that if a girl in today's world does NOT do something like CODP - and instead spends her summer with no hockey, only pickup hockey, only individual dryland training, or even AAA teams - they will be a step behind what they could have been. (I do agree that all the one weekend tournaments - Selects, Elite Classic, etc. are totally overrated. They are fun, and if you look at them in that light, appropriate. If you're looking at doing them "in order to be seen" then you're fooling yourself.)
Any program that says they are the ONLY way to success is not telling the full story. However, pretending that you don't need programs - trainers / coaches - to push kids is also wrong. Should a kid do so much hockey that there is no time to do anything else? Obviously not. If your daughter is burning out and not having fun at hockey any more, should you continue to make her go? Probably not.
CODP meets 3 times a week for 5-6 weeks in the spring and then 3 times a week for 6 weeks in the summer. I assume that OS is somewhat similar to that. Is that really so stressful and intense? It easily blends in with summer soccer, softball, or even family vacations. I would much prefer a 6 week program to the one week camps with 12 hour days.
I know that some high school coaches run great clinics for their players. So should you do that vs CODP or OS? Maybe. I do agree that we have many great choices in the Twin Cities. Find whatever works for your daughter. But if you don’t do some clinic (not just AAA), it’s a mistake in the vast majority of cases.
In fact, I’m just making a guess here – but I would guess that there is not a single player currently playing with the Gophers, Badgers, Dartmouth, etc. who has not done CODP or a CODP like clinic virtually every summer during high school. I would also venture to guess that even the vast, vast majority of D3 players have also done something similar.
The point I started all this with still remains; there are some people who definitely have a passion to cut down CODP. Again, why that is I’m not sure. The response to CODP goes beyond logic – there is indeed some kind of “anti-CODP” passion in some people.
However, I disagree with the cavalier attitude in the previous few posts. "Just play a little unstructured hockey", "workout on your own", "play soccer", etc. In moderation all of these comments make a limited amount of sense. But I 100% guarantee that if a girl in today's world does NOT do something like CODP - and instead spends her summer with no hockey, only pickup hockey, only individual dryland training, or even AAA teams - they will be a step behind what they could have been. (I do agree that all the one weekend tournaments - Selects, Elite Classic, etc. are totally overrated. They are fun, and if you look at them in that light, appropriate. If you're looking at doing them "in order to be seen" then you're fooling yourself.)
Any program that says they are the ONLY way to success is not telling the full story. However, pretending that you don't need programs - trainers / coaches - to push kids is also wrong. Should a kid do so much hockey that there is no time to do anything else? Obviously not. If your daughter is burning out and not having fun at hockey any more, should you continue to make her go? Probably not.
CODP meets 3 times a week for 5-6 weeks in the spring and then 3 times a week for 6 weeks in the summer. I assume that OS is somewhat similar to that. Is that really so stressful and intense? It easily blends in with summer soccer, softball, or even family vacations. I would much prefer a 6 week program to the one week camps with 12 hour days.
I know that some high school coaches run great clinics for their players. So should you do that vs CODP or OS? Maybe. I do agree that we have many great choices in the Twin Cities. Find whatever works for your daughter. But if you don’t do some clinic (not just AAA), it’s a mistake in the vast majority of cases.
In fact, I’m just making a guess here – but I would guess that there is not a single player currently playing with the Gophers, Badgers, Dartmouth, etc. who has not done CODP or a CODP like clinic virtually every summer during high school. I would also venture to guess that even the vast, vast majority of D3 players have also done something similar.
The point I started all this with still remains; there are some people who definitely have a passion to cut down CODP. Again, why that is I’m not sure. The response to CODP goes beyond logic – there is indeed some kind of “anti-CODP” passion in some people.
Ah, as the wheel turns. Despite what you might think, CODP has a lot to do with the Olympic process.trilogy wrote:xwildfan wrote:A couple givens about all these programs. First, they are all over-rated. Second, they are all over-priced. Third, they all try to proclaim that they are the best. Anyone who has been around hockey knows this. None of these program will transform a B player into an A player. And the A players will be A players irregardless of any camps / programs they attend.
The various programs essentially keep players in shape and playing during the offseason. That's really about it. I think the best offseason program would be just to have the players play pick-up hockey once or twice a week; and leave it at that. That would be the cheapest and I think most beneficial. The driven players will do the off-ice stuff on their own.
Well said xwildfan! All these programs do in the end is keep the kids active and in shape. Which you could probably also get (off-ice) at your local YMCA if you hooked up with a trainer there.
The problem as I see it with CODP is that as Thunderbird said it was the only elite program a few years back and with so much competition now is trying to retain its former glory when in actuality it has no connection with the olympic team process anymore. There still is that nagging worry among some parents that if they don't send little Emily to CODP she will be blackballed when other opportunities arise. Yes, so silly, but I have had parents of younger girls just getting to the CODP age ask me just that. So don't knock Thunderbird for stating facts. CODP can't escape some criticism, it was the first and the one the others patterned their programs after. When you are on top you take the most heat.
The only question is whether CODP is still on top.
Does it place players directly on the Olympic team? No. Does it impact whether a player gets picked for NDCs? No. Does USA Hockey monitor who goes through the program? Yes.
Michele Amidon is very much a proponent of CODP, as is Ben Smith. They are paying very close attention to who is going through the program and is following the training regimine. What CODP does for training, the National team is now doing under the direction of Teena Murray.
The USOC monitors what goes on at CODP, and who comes out of the program enroute to National and Olympic teams.(Not that it makes much difference to them as they offer no direct funding, and have no input on National or Olympic team picks, as that is the responsibility of the NGBs) Monthly reports are made on more stuff than you could ever imagine. Finances are closely monitored, because other institutions that have adminstered the CODP programs in various locales have not had the financial oversight they should have.
The CODP contract with the local operator is a year to year deal. If it weren't being run properly, and with the desired results, the contract would not be renewed. Simple as that.
How do I know all this? Because I am part of a group trying to get a CODP designation for New England. I have spent hours on the phone with the USOC, the folks at USA Hockey, and in conversation with Dr. Blatherwick himself. And for the record, the local operatorin Minnesota is Community Athlete Development Program, which is Blatherwick's non-profit, and he is still very much involved.
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unbelievable
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:53 pm
Thanks Hux, good insight.
My daughter had the privilege of attending CODP that past two years in addition to one year at OS as well. She thoroughly enjoyed both and I cannot imagine where she would be developmentally if she had not experienced both of those training programs. Both had some minor scheduling snafus, but with organizations that big things like that are bound to happen. I would wholeheartedly recommend both any girl who is looking to take their hockey game to the next level... but make sure they are ready to work hard!
My daughter had the privilege of attending CODP that past two years in addition to one year at OS as well. She thoroughly enjoyed both and I cannot imagine where she would be developmentally if she had not experienced both of those training programs. Both had some minor scheduling snafus, but with organizations that big things like that are bound to happen. I would wholeheartedly recommend both any girl who is looking to take their hockey game to the next level... but make sure they are ready to work hard!
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Thunderbird77
- Posts: 134
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:01 pm
It is curious that Ben Smith is such a proponent of CODP in Minnesota. In 2006, there were 3 Olympians from Minnesota and 11 from New England. In 2002, there were the same 3 Olympians from Minnesota and 12 from New England. In 1998, there were 2 Olympians from Minnesota and 13 from New England.
FWIW, this is the selection process USA Hockey listed on their web-site for the 2006 games:
In April/May of 2005, USA Hockey will conduct open tryouts at four (4) geographical locations in the USA.
In addition to the open tryouts, the National Team Coaching Staff (“Coaching Staff”) will be aware of and scout a variety of adult amateur, college, prep and high school games looking for qualified talent able to perform at the National and Olympic level.
In August of 2005, the Coaching Staff will select up to 46 female athletes, from the above listed pools, to participate in a Women’s Festival, scheduled for August 18-27, 2005 in Lake Placid, NY. Immediately following this Festival, the Player Evaluation Committee, in collaboration with the Coaching Staff, will select up to 22 athletes to train as the U.S. Women’s National Team preparing for the 2006 Olympic Winter Games.
FWIW, this is the selection process USA Hockey listed on their web-site for the 2006 games:
In April/May of 2005, USA Hockey will conduct open tryouts at four (4) geographical locations in the USA.
In addition to the open tryouts, the National Team Coaching Staff (“Coaching Staff”) will be aware of and scout a variety of adult amateur, college, prep and high school games looking for qualified talent able to perform at the National and Olympic level.
In August of 2005, the Coaching Staff will select up to 46 female athletes, from the above listed pools, to participate in a Women’s Festival, scheduled for August 18-27, 2005 in Lake Placid, NY. Immediately following this Festival, the Player Evaluation Committee, in collaboration with the Coaching Staff, will select up to 22 athletes to train as the U.S. Women’s National Team preparing for the 2006 Olympic Winter Games.
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MNHockeyFan
- Posts: 7260
- Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:28 pm
She, Stack, and Thatcher sustained injuries.MNHockeyFan wrote:I was surprised that Allie Thunstrom, who had a great year at Boston College and one of the best high school players to ever come out of Minnesota, did not make the final National team this year. Anyone have any insight to what happened in the selection process?
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mn44hockey
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:14 pm
i thought i should bring this topic to the top after today's bridge incident in minneapolis. i am very thankful that everyone in my family is okay and i'm saying a prayer for everyone involved. i've been saying "i love you" a lot more to the ones i love tonight because it's amazing how these things come at us unexpectedly. i can get pretty crazy about hockey, but this really makes me re-shift my focus and realise that there are much more important things to life than high school sports.Keep your focus. Treasure your daughters. Can you post one thing you like about your daughter that is not hockey related? Do you have a girl with a great giggle? Someone who loves Milk Duds and rides horses? Take this challenge...share with us one positive thing about the girl you treasure.