USA National Select teams 14,16,18

[MNhockeyfan09]

How many MN girls advance on from phase two?

Usually about 25 after the At large bids are complete.

[boblee]

Thanks! I figured it was around 20-25.

[22puck22]

could someone post the list on here? thanks.

[ghshockeyfan]

http://www.minnesotahockey.org/assorted/16-17s.pdf

http://www.minnesotahockey.org/assorted/16s.pdf

http://www.minnesotahockey.org/assorted/15s.pdf

[nothernewguy]

Here is the flaw, it is because Phase 2 is geographic. It is not the top 60 skaters 8 goalies. It's the top 15/2 out of one geographic region and the top 15/2 out of another, and so on. It's too much like the MSHSL state tourney - equal representation for regions - not a true best of the best.

For example, Jessica Havel didn't make it for whatever reason but theoretically she could still be the 3rd best goalie among all Phase 2 goalies, think about that? You could probably find the 16th best skater on another of the teams and she would rank easily in the top 15 of another region.

Hence the at-large takes care of that I suppose. But I think Phase 2 should be 4 teams of the top 60 and the top 8, any other way of doing is inherently flawed.

[ghshockeyfan]

Here is the flaw, it is because Phase 2 is geographic. It is not the top 60 skaters 8 goalies. It's the top 15/2 out of one geographic region and the top 15/2 out of another, and so on. It's too much like the MSHSL state tourney - equal representation for regions - not a true best of the best.

For example, Jessica Havel didn't make it for whatever reason but theoretically she could still be the 3rd best goalie among all Phase 2 goalies, think about that? You could probably find the 16th best skater on another of the teams and she would rank easily in the top 15 of another region.

Hence the at-large takes care of that I suppose. But I think Phase 2 should be 4 teams of the top 60 and the top 8, any other way of doing is inherently flawed.

Yes & No. I think we see some kids moved from region to region to account for situations when a region/birth year is low/high talent wise at certain positions. I agree about the general statement though, but I think there are adjustments made. Also though, to go back the other way on this, there are a group of kids as seniors that don't participate as #1 they are too old (88 birth dates - for example, Ms. Goalie this year) or #2 they have their college plans wrapped up and choose not to, #3 or they have spring sport/other conflicts, etc. So, while some movement appears to be done to compensate for regional/birth year issues, so too is this offset by the lack of participation by some of the Sr's (and some underclassmen).

I should also add that I don't believe we're seeing kids not advancing to P2 that absolutely should advance to P3 due to region/birth year. No region that I know of has a team full of kids at any position that should all advance to P3, thus knocking off a P3 kid due to region/birth year affiliation. For this reason, the system is not flawed. If this happened, then the system would be flawed. This is my opinion.

I should also add that there have been times when the bar has been set so high that when birth year groups get paired together sometimes kids that went in past year don't go every year. This isn't a flaw either, although I first saw it as such. Instead, this shows the strength of certain classes of kids. What is good or bad, depending on how you look at it, is when there are two consecutive awesome years, then maybe a couple weaker years above & below this pair of solid years. Under the old system (pre-single birth years for 15 & 16), what this did was pair up the two solid years every-other year which knocked out some kids that likely advanced to P3/NY when these years were NOT paired together (when paired with the weaker years above/below). Now, this is a theoretical situation. I'm not saying that any certain birth years are weaker or stronger, etc. - just an observation again about how this may work. And, also, the other impact is how many seniors, others decline or are too old, etc. with those older two birth years (17/18's) paired together.

I should add, this is my observation. I have no connection to the NDP decision making process. Others with factual and first-hand knowledge probably can clarify if they feel the need.

[OntheEdge]

I think NDP is a worthy program. I also think that in theory they try to do their best to identify the best players. Unfortunately some girls are missed (for many different reasons) and a few advance to at least the P2 level based on their resume, pedigree and other factors. Is it perfect? The answer is no however I think its a great program. Parents should not put too much emphasis on the results of the program. Frankly, outside of a few of us hockey nuts, no one cares and I would guess that NDP has no corelation to success in life.

[boblee]

Heather Horgen has been added to the North phase II. Someone must have dropped or gotten injured.

[hocsocstud]

many girls have had to drop out due to spring sports, tests etc. From what i've heard, you HAVE to go to all sessions.. no exceptions

[xwildfan]

There are exceptions every year.

[ghshockeyfan]

There are exceptions every year.

If you have to take the ACT that Sat I believe they will let you miss the Sat AM session with no penalty.

My guess is that some HS coaches are saying kids can't miss their HS sport in season (spring sport) to go to NDP hockey tryouts. I would say this is rare, as I know that I would never keep a kid from missing a national opportunity in another sport if the tryout conflicted with hockey.

[SportsMa]

Our daughter's softball coach was very unhappy and actually somewhat threatening about the hockey try-outs and told there will be consequences for her choice but would not tell her what the consequences will be.

Given that menacing reaction from her coach she decided to go to the try-outs and let the chips fall where they may in regard to softball. It will be interesting to see how it all goes but another life lesson about people and life.

It is refreshing to read for me that it is rare coaches deny their players this opportunity.

[ghshockeyfan]

I can't say that I'm the norm. I just can't believe that coaches would take away the chance of a lifetime for a kid in another sport unless it was playoffs or something like that.

Some coaches will tell kids they'll be off the team if they play another sport or miss anything for that other sport (even national level items).

I know coaches that have told players that if they miss for the ACT (even a scrimmage) they won't be able to return to Varsity.

But, I also know there are some admin. out there that criticize coaches that make exceptions for academic, other extra-curricular activities (fine arts, etc.), or even religion. I'm not kidding.

In my book, kids are "student-athletes" for a reason. Student first... I'm all about dedication to the sport in-season, etc., but I think we need to be reasonable. These are kids...

[xwildfan]

My guess is that some HS coaches are saying kids can't miss their HS sport in season (spring sport) to go to NDP hockey tryouts. I would say this is rare, as I know that I would never keep a kid from missing a national opportunity in another sport if the tryout conflicted with hockey.[/quote]

Even if the sport was your second favorite sport, soccer? Try-outs or playing out of season sports puts everyone in a tough situation. One of the key players on my daugter's team sprained an ankle playing ODP soccer during hockey season several years ago. She missed four games and was never at 100% for the rest of the season. The hockey coach was not too happy. Don't really know what the best answer is.

[hockeywild7]

I doubt many hockey coaches would approve of a player missing their practices or games during their season due to another sport. I wouldnt allow it as a coach and as a parent I understand a coach not allowing it. I doubt you would see many boys football or hockey team coaches allowing this during their seasons. Maybe NDP should arrange their schedules so as not to conflict with other high school sports seasons. These kids are better off playing other sports anyway. They can learn just as much by getting involved in other sports as they would doing all the ODP, NDP stuff and I think it should be encouraged and praised by coaches. Truthfully it doesnt matter anyway, the best players could take off the whole offseason and play other sports and still come back and be the best players on their hockey teams. Its called genetics.

[xwildfan]

Well-said, Wild7

[ghshockeyfan]

I may have been entirely misunderstood. Or maybe I'll just have to agree to disagree...

I would hope that any coach would consider making it possible for a player to participate in an event that is the identification process for national/Team USA participation in another sport (within reason).

Playing ODP soccer is not something we can stop a kid from doing. If it conflicts with practice/games that is an issue and I would NOT allow that. If a kid gets hurt doing it and it doesn't conflict, I don't think that I have the right to tell them to stop or else get kicked off the team - unless it conflicts (even if I may want them to quit or think they should).

What is the difference between the prior two paragraphs? 1 is a two weekend tryout that may land the kid at Lake Placid come Summer with the top kids in the nation. The other is an ongoing soccer league (not sure if you have to play the entire soccer league to go to the national level camp come summer?) Big difference I think.

I can't believe that we should be stopping kids from participating in the identification process for Nat'l team competition. Note - I don't believe an ongoing league is the equivalent of a two-weekend tryout process.

Also - it is common for players to miss the start of one HS season to finish up another. Should I tell my boys hockey player that he can't play hockey because the football team made it to state? Or should swimmers not be able to play hockey for the same reason?

That aside, I don't believe that a coach should tell the kids to miss a choir or band concert or to forget about being in the play or other performances that happen very rarely. Similarly, I don't think any coach should tell kids to put hockey before religion or academics (if needing help, having to make up a test or having to take an ACT, etc.) As a parent or a coach I would hope that this would be common vs. an exception.

[Hux]

That aside, I don't believe that a coach should tell the kids to miss a choir or band concert or to forget about being in the play or other performances that happen very rarely. Similarly, I don't think any coach should tell kids to put hockey before religion or academics (if needing help, having to make up a test or having to take an ACT, etc.) As a parent or a coach I would hope that this would be common vs. an exception.

One of the problems lies in parents signing kids up for too much. As a youth coach, I fully realize that kids have lives, and that birthday parties, trips out of town, school plays etc happen and will conflict with practices or games. Unfortunately parents think that kids, girls especially, should be doing a dozen activities, and that when a conflict arises, JR gets to pick that which is most fun. Parents need to keep things in perspective, and not have their kid running from one activity to the next, often at the expense of one or more.

However, at the upper level that goes out the window. If you are going to play a sport, you have to realize you are making a commitment to a team, and should be expected to honor that commitment.

Obviously academic issues come first. The rest of it is a load of crap. If you play a sport, don't expect to sing in the choir, or be in the school play, or go to church if there is a game, or to a dance if there is a Friday night curfew. Simple as that. If one activity is going to conflict with another, a student/athlete needs to decide which is more important and do just the one. Otherwise you are wasting your time, your teammates' time, and the coach's time. (That being said, if a kid has a hell of a set of pipes and gets invited to sing the National Anthem before a Wild game, I'd say go, and bring me back SWAG from the Pro Shop)

In Massachusetts we have very specific rules regarding the deliniation of seasons. A winter sport cannot begin before the end of a fall season, and a varsity athlete may not participate in more than one sport during a specific season (fall, winter, spring), nor for more than one team. If you try to play for a club team at an event like Polar Bear, you get bounced from your varsity team.

Recently a girl was doing swimming and hockey at the same time. When the state sanctioning body was informed the player was suspended for one year, the coaches were suspended, and both sports teams forfeited all events she participated in. In both cases the teams went from being qualified for the States, to wanna be status.

The rules are in place to protect the student/athlete from injury due to fatigue, and to ensure "proper" attention to academic matters.

[SportsMa]

In our daughter's specific case she wanted to have a conversation about it with her spring coach before making a decision. The coach did not want to have a conversation about it with her and rather made her feel threatened that if she chose to miss a one hour Friday practice (please note I wrote one practice not a game) that there would be consequences which she would not identify. I could understand the concern if she was going to miss multiple practices or games but she is not. I simply do not understand the philosophy I guess in this case and just a bit of background our team has had two players in previous years do the same thing altho they actually missed games and no consequence was imposed by this same coach. My daughter and the coach have always been on good terms, she is a good student and has not missed any practices to date. Phase I they did not have practice that Friday or on the weekend.

As I read others' responses my philosophy is more along the lines of GHS' so will be fine to agree to disagree. Differences make the world more interesting. They are high school student-athletes not college or pro athletes.

In regard to potential injury, you can get hurt walking down a set of stairs and had that actually happen to a player last year and she was out for half the season or the wide receiver on my son's football team who broke his arm in multiple places while wakeboarding the summer right before their senior season and due to complications of his breaks he never did make it back that year. It happens.

I guess I just view this as another life lesson for my daughter, no matter what happens this will not seriously harm her personal development. She will continue to be the smart and strong person she is in mind, spirit and body.

[ghshockeyfan]

That aside, I don't believe that a coach should tell the kids to miss a choir or band concert or to forget about being in the play or other performances that happen very rarely. Similarly, I don't think any coach should tell kids to put hockey before religion or academics (if needing help, having to make up a test or having to take an ACT, etc.) As a parent or a coach I would hope that this would be common vs. an exception.

One of the problems lies in parents signing kids up for too much. As a youth coach, I fully realize that kids have lives, and that birthday parties, trips out of town, school plays etc happen and will conflict with practices or games. Unfortunately parents think that kids, girls especially, should be doing a dozen activities, and that when a conflict arises, JR gets to pick that which is most fun. Parents need to keep things in perspective, and not have their kid running from one activity to the next, often at the expense of one or more.

I agree with this 100%. But, I also think some fear that if their kid doesn't do everything under the sun that they will somehow be overlooked or not be considered in the future, etc. (which likely isn't true).

However, at the upper level that goes out the window. If you are going to play a sport, you have to realize you are making a commitment to a team, and should be expected to honor that commitment.

Obviously academic issues come first. The rest of it is a load of crap. If you play a sport, don't expect to sing in the choir, or be in the school play, or go to church if there is a game, or to a dance if there is a Friday night curfew. Simple as that. If one activity is going to conflict with another, a student/athlete needs to decide which is more important and do just the one. Otherwise you are wasting your time, your teammates' time, and the coach's time. (That being said, if a kid has a hell of a set of pipes and gets invited to sing the National Anthem before a Wild game, I'd say go, and bring me back SWAG from the Pro Shop)

Again, I agree to disagree here...

If you coach at a Class A (small) school you don't have the luxury to monopolize a kid's life like this. One of the first discussions I had with my AD was about this "commitment to team" and how other activities impact the sport in season in a small school setting. By activities, I mean choir, band, theater, etc. Also, some kids take these as classes in school and a major component of their class grade rides on being at the "performance" (i.e. concert, etc.).

To tell a teenage girl that she can't go to Prom, Homecoming, or Formal dance is absurd. Commitment to hockey? Please. I think they deserve to be kids too! Adjust your curfew to accommodate the dance. It's pretty simple.

To tell a kid that they can't go to a religious function? Should we tell them they can't go to a funeral or that if a family member is dying that they can't be with their family? Where does it end??? Commitment to team is great, but to make it all or nothing is a little too much I think.

In Massachusetts we have very specific rules regarding the deliniation of seasons. A winter sport cannot begin before the end of a fall season, and a varsity athlete may not participate in more than one sport during a specific season (fall, winter, spring), nor for more than one team. If you try to play for a club team at an event like Polar Bear, you get bounced from your varsity team.

Recently a girl was doing swimming and hockey at the same time. When the state sanctioning body was informed the player was suspended for one year, the coaches were suspended, and both sports teams forfeited all events she participated in. In both cases the teams went from being qualified for the States, to wanna be status.

The rules are in place to protect the student/athlete from injury due to fatigue, and to ensure "proper" attention to academic matters.

I think that the MN HS League has tried to regulate as MASS has. There are slight overlaps sometimes though. They don't stop the kid from participating though. This is usually a week or two tops of conflict, and unfortunately happens only for those that advance to State Tourneys usually. You can't play on a club & HS school team in MN either. I agree that these rules are in place for a number of reasons, but I think there are liability concerns as well as the well-being of the kids.

[hockeywild7]

I think Hux might be taking it a bit too far. Faith, Family and academics need to be a priority for kids. Sports cant be the priority and any coach with common sense approaches it this way. Asking an athlete to not participate in AAU volleyball during softball or track season is not asking too much. Telling them they cant attend church or a sponsored school activity like a band concert is another thing. Most schools try to avoid these conflicts anyway. Thats why high school athletes can not practice on Sundays. I wish I could say the same for all these other activities.

[Hux]

I think Hux might be taking it a bit too far. Faith, Family and academics need to be a priority for kids. Sports cant be the priority and any coach with common sense approaches it this way. Asking an athlete to not participate in AAU volleyball during softball or track season is not asking too much. Telling them they cant attend church or a sponsored school activity like a band concert is another thing. Most schools try to avoid these conflicts anyway. Thats why high school athletes can not practice on Sundays. I wish I could say the same for all these other activities.

I agree with everyone here, in the sense that there are priorities in life. I wasn't implying that it is the team, or death, and that a funeral or major family event doesn't come first. Obviously a prom is going to take precedence over hockey, and good luck to the coach who thinks he/she is going to have a practice on prom night, though as noted I doubt one would be scheduled.

As for faith. That travels with you. If church conflicts with practice, or a game, go some other time, they are always open. (Our girls high school team has 90 minute practices at 4:00 PM on Sunday nights BTW)

My point is that too often there are conflicts that arise because someone didn't think through their involvement in an activity. You don't go out for a play, knowing that rehersals are from 5-7 PM twice a week when you have practice during those times, or that the weekend run of the play is going to be during two crucial games. It isn't just that you impact your team, you will likely also impact the play, by taking time off for hockey, hoops etc. Is that fair to those in the play? No.

"Juliet, where art thou?"

"Ah, she has practice tonight Romeo, but she will drop in later in the week. In the meantime, meet her good friend Hamlet."

Again, we are talking sports, but there are many life lessons that we learn from participation in sports, or community activities, or volunteering. One of the most important, particularly in team sports, is responsibility for one's actions. Whether on the ice, or field, what we do or don't do directly impacts the performance of the team as a whole.

Kids make a commitment to the team when they play a sport like hockey, or join the band, or go out for a school play. Having the attitude that it is ok to break that commitment in the name of this, that, or the other thing because they are kids, and are in school etc. sets a bad precedent. Those same kids then go get a job during the summer, but suddenly something comes up, and they blow off work. And that perpetuates itself into the workplace as adults.

While we all want to see our kids become well rounded adults, we have to set limits on activities when we can see multiple or major conflicts arising.

[SEhockeyDAD]

I've never understood it. Why does a coach think that his sport is more important than any other activity, be it sports, school, church or family? Because if a coach didn't think his sport was the highest priority, there would be no threat or application of consequences.

There's a fairness issue here, also. Will a coach bench their best softball pitcher because she missed practice while attending an NDP tryout? If that player suffers no consequences, then the coach has to make the same allowance for the rest of the team. If the coach does bench the star pitcher, then IMO, he's telling that girl and the whole team that her priorities and feeling are wrong, and softball is most important.

On the flipside, some coaches will tell the players that its unfair of them to miss time because the rest of the team is committed, practicing, playing and trying their best. Once again, this sends the message that no one on the team should miss any time during the season, that their sport is more important than anything else that comes up. And IMO, its alright if some players don't want to miss any time for any reason. Thats their choice, but it doesn't mean that it has to be the rule for every other student athlete. Its quite likely important that these students learn this lesson, too, that others are allowed to have different priorities. If the coach can't teach this lesson, that probably means that he hasn't learned this himself.

Now, if a player tries to split time between two activities and misses significant time in both, (i.e. the sport and play scenario Hux lays out,) then the student has obviously tried to fit too much activity into the same time period. No, it wouldn't work to miss some practice or rehearsal every day. Thats a lesson that should have been taught before the situation arose. However, if practices didn't overlap and a student and her family planned as best they could, and she misses one game for a play thats performed only 4 times ever, she shouldn't be made to feel bad by her coach. (Or guilt, profound sadness, even panic.) On the contrary, I hope she's congratulated by her coach for her thespian accomplishments.

There should be understanding on the coach's part that a player has other opportunities, interests and even obligations during a 3 or 4 month long season. Telling a teenager that this isn't allowed is wrong, IMO. That forces priorities upon a young person who should be allowed to explore different avenues, including sports. You can expect some level of commitment for any activity, but you shouldn't demand a student's exclusivity.

[hockeyrube7]

Funny how these things turn to new subjects, but here is a different scenario on the subject at hand:

My daughter in 10th grade decided to play a spring sport, fast pitch. Made the 10th grade squad, as a runner only, and did not get much play time. She was OK with that, as she was fairly new to the sport. She made every practice and every game, until the end of the season, where she had the opportunity to play a high level hockey game vs a practice. She let the coach know at least 3 days a head of time, and the coach told her she would not be able to play her in the next set of games. My daughter chose the hockey game, as she never played much either way for the fastpitch team. Coach stayed true to her word, she did not receive any play time at all in the next three games, yet attended all. No big loss for the short term, as it did not hurt her progression in that sport, but in the long run, she never played fast pitch again.

No real point, just an observation more or less.

[MNhockeyfan09]

I guess I just view this as another life lesson for my daughter, no matter what happens this will not seriously harm her personal development. She will continue to be the smart and strong person she is in mind, spirit and body.

I wish more parents would be as level headed and in tune with reality as you. After HS all those sooo very important games don't mean as much and life starts taking shape for these young adults. The life lessons will carry on throughout their lives, not the wins and losses.
keep up the good postings!