HockeyTalk2020 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 12:45 pm
MN Hockey (as one of the 12 USA Hockey Districts) won't grant them the proper status...they do allow SSM the proper status.
That was the point I was trying to make earlier.. but maybe if enough schools/programs wanted their own tournament it could happen since that is different than being eligible for Tier 1 nationals. However, I would still suspect MN hockey would do everything in their power to fight them and not register them if this plan ever developed.
Maybe they would not be able to if these were all associated with schools such as Breakaway... I just don't know enough about the subject.
Does it make it right? Is it a good development for high school hockey in Minnesota for a public high school to become the destination for AAA all star teams to transfer to, immediately taking away opportunities for good players who grew up playing for the youth program and supporting the high school program? Is that what you want high school hockey in Minnesota to become?
And if your kid was one of the players who gets dumped when the all stars move in, you’d be totally cool with that, right?
About 5,000 of the 11,000 students in attending Minnetonka public schools are there via Open Enrollment. Majority of families in the school district do not have school age children.
Fine. But open enrollment shouldn’t be a loophole for using the high school to create hockey all star teams via transfers. The Minnetonka youth hockey association—which is based on the Minnetonka high school boundaries—is one of the largest youth hockey associations in Minnesota. The kids playing in the youth program shouldn’t get kicked to the curb in high school because the parents of a bunch of kids who play AAA together coordinate a mass transfer to Minnetonka High School to add a state championship to their precious all stars’ resumes as the Minnetonka coaches wink and nod and pretend they had no idea that all these amazing hockey players from beyond Minnetonka were gonna enroll at the high school until they showed up on the first day of school. Quit insulting our intelligence.
I'll make the point about Tonka I've made earlier - gotta offset the incoming HS move ins with the outgoing association star kids that have gone elsewhere - Beckett Hendrickson , Drew Stewart , and Kam Hendrickson to name a few recent ones
Brinks another outgoing one - left Tonka after soph year .
How are you going to stop kids from moving around ?
WestMetro wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 10:34 pm
I'll make the point about Tonka I've made earlier - gotta offset the incoming HS move ins with the outgoing association star kids that have gone elsewhere - Beckett Hendrickson , Drew Stewart , and Kam Hendrickson to name a few recent ones
Brinks another outgoing one - left Tonka after soph year .
How are you going to stop kids from moving around ?
All programs lose high end players. I live in Maple Grove. I can name countless players who’ve left high school early here. Did you watch Gophers game tonight against Notre Dame? Three players on ice for Notre Dame left Maple Grove early after just playing one year of high school—both Janickes and Danny Nelson. Brock Faber left Maple Grove after bantams, playing no high school hockey. Maple Grove didn’t replace them with recruits from elsewhere. You stop players from jumping to chase trophies by having a no excuses transfer rule—you only can play JV in year you transfer. Period. No exceptions. That’ll stop the garbage that’s happening at Tonka.
The best way to ensure that kids won't leave is to build a culture where kids love playing hockey for their hometown. They still hang out with the kids in their squirt team photo because those same kids are now in the High School photo.
Listen I get it, parents are nuts and want to rush rush rush. When things go wrong, it's never their fault let alone their kids fault. The top parents want control so they build their entourage of other parents and kids to support their own kid.
Back to the topic. The open portal that is now HS hockey has to be addressed if we want the community based model to survive. And the only way to do this is to create "pain" if you want to move...No parent will move their kid 10 miles across town if their kid can't compete for the state medal that upcoming year....Take a tonka kid...Lets say that kid moves into tonka for his junior year...This kid would be allowed to play the regular season his junior year but then sit out all playoff games that year. Come his senior year (assuming the crazy parents don't move again ) he would be allowed to play a full season including the playoffs and state tournament....Rule applies once your complete your first year of varsity competition... if you move after your final bantam year, you'd be eligible to play post season your first year of varsity. The reason you say "competing your first year of varsity competition" is it then applies to girls hockey where kids may make the varsity team as 8th graders.
Private schools face the same rules/restrictions..(otherwise all the crazy parents would just move their kids to a private school for their senior year)
It's a simple rule that can't be challenge and is very easy to enforce...And it's also fair (if a kid moves, he can still play hockey that year..granted just for the regular season...) The rich can't lawyer up and beat the system by renting an apartment but more importantly you won't see kids leaving their hometown after their 10th or 11th grade for green pastures.
Say a kid moves in from Silicon Valley with different skills , you gonna keep him on jv chess club or keep him out of the state robotics trny for a year?
Or just applies to a cross town Minny hockey kids ?
Just saying , hard to administer
Don't know why more transfers don't move into MG system , but could happen any year and then coach has to take what's in front of him since it's a public school system , right ?
What are you going to do about privates? AHA has a player driving in from Redwing every day
Back to Tonka - their transfer in kids are a combination of open enrollment and also parents moving in .
I don't think I coul have been any more clear...If you participate in a varsity sport in Minnesota and the following year you move somewhere else, that next year you are ineligible for any post season play...Very easy to enforce and the kid is not truly punished.. he can still participate in the regular season.
Examples
Kid plays varsity for Chaska as a 10th grader, then open enrolls at Minnetonka as a 11th grader...He can play the whole season for Minnetonka his junior year yet sits out for playoffs his junior year...Come his senior year at Tonka, he can play the compete schedule
Same rule applies to that kid in Red Wing...If he moves to a private school after Bantam's he's fine to play the whole schedule at the private school...But if he played Varsity one year at Red Wing, then he's limited to regular season play that first year with the private school.
Can we agree today's system does not work...The rich simply sign a 6 month lease on an apartment, probably never step foot in the apartment and they beat the system..The not as rich, run to the AD and claims little billy was yelled at by a coach or one of the other players spit in his water bottle and boom the bully card gets the family their transfer.
The only other answer is to put our head in the sand and watch the Tonka's and privates dominate AA hockey for the next 50 years... If you're okay with that, that's your right. All I am trying to do is think outside the box and try to cut down on parents who have the means and madness to form these "all star teams" with little care about our community based model...
Dad or Mom gets transferred from LaCrescent to Twin Cities for work , when kid is a sophomore , you going to punish the kid by keeping him out of post season play?
Not punishing him..He can play the whole season....And the next season he can play in both the regular season and the playoffs...
And lets be honest...that situation is very rare...98% what we are talking about deals with the Tonka situation or families bailing on their high school team as a sophomore or Junior cuz little billy wasn't on the PP and enrolling the kid at a private school.....That is what this rule would prevent.
Oh...it also prevents little billy's dad in small town 218 country taking a high paying job in a hockey town just because little billy got good a hockey at age 16
WM....Are you okay parents renting a temporary apartment (never living there) just so they can't beat the system?
Are you okay with a parent, walking into an AD office claiming his kid was bullied just because a coach yelled at him?
Are you okay with parents meeting at hockey schools, then getting together as a group and planning their agenda to get all those kids at the same high school?
Are you okay with private school coaches initiating conversations with families about hockey and playing time and nothing being done about it?
I can keep going?
What is your stance and or ideas on this one? Should we try to eliminate these issues or just turn our head and look elsewhere ?
WestMetro wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2023 10:04 am
Dad or Mom gets transferred from LaCrescent to Twin Cities for work , when kid is a sophomore , you going to punish the kid by keeping him out of post season play?
This isn’t the norm right now in any way, West Metro. 99% of the transfers are people gaming the loopholes in the system. And I’m HAPPY Maple Grove isn’t attracting more transfers. Why would the school getting transfers be a good thing? So it can be like Tonka? No thank you. We have a thriving youth program and the high school program lets all youth players in for free to games if they have a youth jersey on. The kids look up to the varsity players and dream of maybe being in their spot one day. This is how it’s supposed to be. Why ruin that culture with a bunch of transfers and their crazy parents who are living through their kids and loyal to nobody?
Westie, you are right. The rules at MSHSL have to work for a lot more than hockey. I was asked some questions above. Easy. I'm not an advocate for hockey-only MSHSL rules and I don't see where there are problems with the way things are now. So someone has a problem with Minnetonka, yet they just cut a Varsity transfer from another school. Some people will always complain. The standard isn't no complaints. It is do rules make sense.
And if your kid was one of the players who gets dumped when the all stars move in, you’d be totally cool with that, right?
About 5,000 of the 11,000 students in attending Minnetonka public schools are there via Open Enrollment. Majority of families in the school district do not have school age children.
Fine. But open enrollment shouldn’t be a loophole for using the high school to create hockey all star teams via transfers. The Minnetonka youth hockey association—which is based on the Minnetonka high school boundaries—is one of the largest youth hockey associations in Minnesota. The kids playing in the youth program shouldn’t get kicked to the curb in high school because the parents of a bunch of kids who play AAA together coordinate a mass transfer to Minnetonka High School to add a state championship to their precious all stars’ resumes as the Minnetonka coaches wink and nod and pretend they had no idea that all these amazing hockey players from beyond Minnetonka were gonna enroll at the high school until they showed up on the first day of school. Quit insulting our intelligence.
In the 1970's and prior you had companies on the Range offering dad's jobs to move into town so their son would play on the HS team. Then private schools were admitted to the MSHSL and next was open enrollment that leveled the playing field and now on top of that it's money and who can build the best program and facilities to draw the top students and players.
Minnetonka is one of the top rated school districts in the state and with the new 32,000 advanced professional studies program and the skilled trade facility that opens this year the demand will become even larger.
Better opportunities draw people and that's all there is too it.
WestMetro wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2023 10:04 am
Dad or Mom gets transferred from LaCrescent to Twin Cities for work , when kid is a sophomore , you going to punish the kid by keeping him out of post season play?
This isn’t the norm right now in any way, West Metro. 99% of the transfers are people gaming the loopholes in the system. And I’m HAPPY Maple Grove isn’t attracting more transfers. Why would the school getting transfers be a good thing? So it can be like Tonka? No thank you. We have a thriving youth program and the high school program lets all youth players in for free to games if they have a youth jersey on. The kids look up to the varsity players and dream of maybe being in their spot one day. This is how it’s supposed to be. Why ruin that culture with a bunch of transfers and their crazy parents who are living through their kids and loyal to nobody?
Maple Grove doesn't need to draw open enrollment kids as there are plenty of young families there. Minnetonka was on the verge of closing elementary schools in the late 90's early 2000's due to lack of kids in the district. Open enrollment and referendums that have passed every time for the past 20+ years is what saved and then allowed the district to grow and add facilities and programs. The athlete transfer situation came much later.
Spread out , just saying there is no perfect answer
As far as Section 2 goes , 3 diff teams went to the X in the last decade , and the dominant one is no longer dominant due in part to competitive forces .
During that period , 3 other Section 2 teams just barely missed a trip to the X . A 7th has big momentum right now . That a pretty good competitive section isn't it ? Probably the most competitive of any section in the last decade ? Most other sections in that period have been largely dominated by two teams , 3 for some
The boundaries of many of the Sect 2 association teams touch
one another , so natural to some degree for families to have movement between them . Whether by open enrollment or family moving . Esp in case of CCHA kids which touches Tonka , EP, Shak, HF, and SSM always grabs some
One could said that all that competition in 2AA is a good thing for Minn Hockey , couldn't they ? Prior Lake had the biggest turnout at the X of any AA squad in history I think . Possibly WBL came close
I'll just also say that ADS and coaches gotta be sure kids are eligible when rosters are finalized , otherwise they risk ineligibility for section play or the X , or have championships voided later . So they violate rules at their own risk .
I don't have all the answers , but I do like the 2AA competition
Will just add our group regularly follows all top section teams and associations every year , not just 2AA . Have many hockey family acquaintances in MG, Rogers , Cent and others . So very familiar with all their accomplishments . We are always at all the metro section semis and finals , and at the X to see them all there
Again , I don't have all the answers . Maybe your idea is worth a try . There would have to be exceptions , like with any new rule
WestMetro wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 10:34 pm
I'll make the point about Tonka I've made earlier - gotta offset the incoming HS move ins with the outgoing association star kids that have gone elsewhere - Beckett Hendrickson , Drew Stewart , and Kam Hendrickson to name a few recent ones
Brinks another outgoing one - left Tonka after soph year .
How are you going to stop kids from moving around ?
All programs lose high end players. I live in Maple Grove. I can name countless players who’ve left high school early here. Did you watch Gophers game tonight against Notre Dame? Three players on ice for Notre Dame left Maple Grove early after just playing one year of high school—both Janickes and Danny Nelson. Brock Faber left Maple Grove after bantams, playing no high school hockey. Maple Grove didn’t replace them with recruits from elsewhere. You stop players from jumping to chase trophies by having a no excuses transfer rule—you only can play JV in year you transfer. Period. No exceptions. That’ll stop the garbage that’s happening at Tonka.
Well said Spread. People for some reason want to point out the Tonka kids who leave for other programs or early as if no other teams have kids leave.
If Tonka wanted to stop it they could, but Goldy and staff won’t. They really don’t care about kids who invested entire time in the Program. Tonka is the 2nd largest youth program that funnels into 1 high school, and in an affluent area. The fact it takes kids from Orono, Mound, Chaska, Chanhassen, Colorado, and other states to win a state tourney speaks volumes.
WestMetro wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 10:34 pm
I'll make the point about Tonka I've made earlier - gotta offset the incoming HS move ins with the outgoing association star kids that have gone elsewhere - Beckett Hendrickson , Drew Stewart , and Kam Hendrickson to name a few recent ones
Brinks another outgoing one - left Tonka after soph year .
How are you going to stop kids from moving around ?
All programs lose high end players. I live in Maple Grove. I can name countless players who’ve left high school early here. Did you watch Gophers game tonight against Notre Dame? Three players on ice for Notre Dame left Maple Grove early after just playing one year of high school—both Janickes and Danny Nelson. Brock Faber left Maple Grove after bantams, playing no high school hockey. Maple Grove didn’t replace them with recruits from elsewhere. You stop players from jumping to chase trophies by having a no excuses transfer rule—you only can play JV in year you transfer. Period. No exceptions. That’ll stop the garbage that’s happening at Tonka.
Well said Spread. People for some reason want to point out the Tonka kids who leave for other programs or early as if no other teams have kids leave.
If Tonka wanted to stop it they could, but Goldy and staff won’t. They really don’t care about kids who invested entire time in the Program. Tonka is the 2nd largest youth program that funnels into 1 high school, and in an affluent area. The fact it takes kids from Orono, Mound, Chaska, Chanhassen, Colorado, and other states to win a state tourney speaks volumes.
Yep. I got a peewee in OMGHA. Tonka has the exact same number of teams (10) and levels at Peewee that OMGHA does this year. The idea that Tonka “needs” to recruit at high school to compete is nonsense. It’s that the Tonk coach “wants” to recruit, because apparently building his trophy case and legacy is all that matters. Gross.
The primary purpose of school is education. Yeah, yeah, I know, sports can be a big part of that, whatever. If a family changes a student's school, whether by open enrollment or enrolling in one of the privates, if the true intent is for education, then being relegated to JV (or sitting out section and tournament play) is of little consequence. Hundreds of kids somehow survive the tragedy of being cut completely from the varsity and JV; they don't need years of therapy, and they grow up, get jobs, have kids, etc. So missing out on some varsity action is no big deal.
Driving from Red Wing to Richfield? To play for AHA? Can someone help me out on this one? AHA hasn't hung a banner in a generation, in fact they haven't come close to hanging a banner in that time. Considering the cost of transportation, tuition, etc, I think the parents would do well to enroll that kid in Red Wing, or a much closer middling program, and put that $$$ into a 529 for the kid's education. It's not really hurting any other kid, it's just....not a well thought out plan.
Last, can I score some cheap housing by sub-letting a vacant apartment in the west Metro? Is this contributing to the housing shortage? If I hang out at some AAA games next summer, can I tap into one of these parent cabals?
Gov78 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2023 4:15 pm
Maple Grove doesn't need to draw open enrollment kids as there are plenty of young families there. Minnetonka was on the verge of closing elementary schools in the late 90's early 2000's due to lack of kids in the district. Open enrollment and referendums that have passed every time for the past 20+ years is what saved and then allowed the district to grow and add facilities and programs. The athlete transfer situation came much later.
Minnetonka has played the hockey transfer game since the 90s: Jeff Callinan (Mound), Joe Dusbabek (Fairbault) & Evan Stensrud (Wayzata) were all 3 hockey transfers in the early to mid 90s. There are countless others.
I side with WestMetro: I have a hard time seeing the MSHSL doing a rule purely hockey specific. And I also don't know what the answer is either. But I'd pump the brakes on poor little Minnetonka needed then & needs open enrollment & referendums now to survive, both school & athletics wise
I don't see any reason why a no transfer rule would need to be hockey only. The same thing could be true in all sports/activities: If you have played varsity in any sport at one school and transfer to a different school after ninth grade, you sit out a year of varsity competition. No exceptions.