District 10 14UA Playoffs

hockeylover15 · Post by **hockeylover15** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:19 pm

Just wondering if anyone has heard anything about the Andover's goalie situation during playoffs?

We heard through the grapevine that their goalie was in Mexico on vacation so they used Chisago Lakes goalie in yesterday's game against Champlin Park and plan on using their Bantam A goalie (who is a girl) in Thursday's game? Isn't one of their current skaters their goalie from last year? Didn't know you could use players rostered on two different teams.

HockeyDad2016 · Post by **HockeyDad2016** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:04 pm

I know a girl can be rostered on both a boys/youth team and a girls team for the same season. Someone should find out if thats the case.

The better question is, who in D10 approved a gaolie from Chisago Lake's who is in the same district playoffs to play for Andover?

iceglo · Post by **iceglo** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:47 pm

HockeyDad2016 wrote:I know a girl can be rostered on both a boys/youth team and a girls team for the same season. Someone should find out if thats the case.

The better question is, who in D10 approved a gaolie from Chisago Lake's who is in the same district playoffs to play for Andover?

I guess it's up to D10 to determine the eligibility of a substitute goalie since they have jurisdiction over their own district tournament. For the regional/state tournament, the Minnesota Hockey rules are pretty clear:

If a team carries only one goalie on its roster and that goalie is not available for regional or state tournament play, a REPLACEMENT goalie may be chosen from a team in its league or association. Such a "replacement" goalie may be chosen from the same or a lower but not higher playing classification.

1. If a "replacement" goalie is not available from within a team’s league or association, a "spare" goalie may then be chosen from among the teams in its district; or failing the above, from its regional.

2. The “replacement” goalie shall wear the jersey of the in-season team on which they are rostered.

3. The "replacement" goalie retains eligibility with their parent team organization at their original classification for the balance of the playing season whether or not they actually play in the tournament in question.

4. The "replacement" goalie must be properly registered on a MH team for the season in question to be eligible to participate in a regional or state tournament. Proof of registration, such as a copy of their parent team's registration roster will be required during tournament check-in. NOTE: the objective of the rule is to allow a team to obtain a back-up goalkeeper during regional and state MH play. The rule is not intended to permit teams to improve their goaltending through drafting of an additional player.

5. Must be approved by the releasing/receiving District Director(s) using the MH Substitute Goalie Form.

GREEN MONSTER · Post by **GREEN MONSTER** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:26 pm

Taken from the Minnesota Hockey Handbook

Registration.

B. No Player shall be registered with two or more MH/USA Hockey teams at the same time regardless of
league division or classification, except:
1. Players on city house teams may play with both their team and a city traveling team.
2. This provision shall not apply to female youth age players who may register on both a youth C or House
team and also register with a girl's A or B team for the purpose of practice, exhibition games, league games and tournament competition including the USA Hockey National Women's Tournament. This exception should not dissuade an association from starting a girls program at any age level

Under Team Composition

C. It is recommended that each team in the state and regional tournaments dress two goalies. If the team does not have two goalies, a SPARE goalie may be chosen from a team in its league or association, and
such a "spare goalie" may be chosen from the same or a lower but not higher playing classification.
1. If a "spare" goalie is not available from within a team’s league or association, a "spare" goalie may
then be chosen from among the teams in its district; or failing the above, from its regional.
2. Such a "spare" goalie may play ONLY in the case of injury to the regular goalie.
3. The “spare” goalie shall wear the light or dark jersey of the in-season team on which they are rostered.
4. The"spare"goalieretainstheireligibilitywiththeirparentteamororganizationattheiroriginalclassifica-
tion for the balance of the playing season whether or not they actually play in the tournament in question.
5. The "spare" goalie must be properly registered on a MH team for the season in question to be eligible to participate in a regional or state tournament. Proof of registration, such as a copy of their parent team's registration roster will be required during tournament check-in. NOTE: the objective of the rule is to allow a team to obtain a back-up goalkeeper during regional and state MH play. The rule is not
intended to permit teams to improve their goaltending through drafting of an additional player.
6. Must be approved by the releasing/receiving District Director(s) using the MH Substitute Goalie Form.

Looks to me like they are in clear violation of the rules! Also, there is nothing in the D10 handbook so one would tend to follow the guidelines set down by the governing body of Minnesota Hockey. Who ever allowed this is going to have some explaining to do. It would seem like any player even playing in the same tournament are eligible, I know of a couple of teams that would like to grab some players from the high school now that the season is over who are still age eligible. If you think that point of view is over the top, I would say give me any form of logic that would justify this blatant disregard for the rules. And it sounds as though this goalie is on vacation, not injured, not sick. Completely wrong! Looking at the schedule I would recommend Elk River file a grievance as soon as possible to put an end to this. They are setting a very dangerous presidence here if this is allowed to happen. One game they have Chisago's 14U goalie playing her second D10 tournament game of the day, and now they are having the Andover Bantam A goalie playing on Thursday against Elk River? Doesn't seem right to me.

spin-o-rama · Post by **spin-o-rama** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:07 am

GREEN MONSTER wrote:Taken from the Minnesota Hockey Handbook

Registration.

B. No Player shall be registered with two or more MH/USA Hockey teams at the same time regardless of
league division or classification, except:
1. Players on city house teams may play with both their team and a city traveling team.
2. This provision shall not apply to female youth age players who may register on both a youth C or House
team and also register with a girl's A or B team for the purpose of practice, exhibition games, league games and tournament competition including the USA Hockey National Women's Tournament. This exception should not dissuade an association from starting a girls program at any age level

Under Team Composition

C. It is recommended that each team in the state and regional tournaments dress two goalies. If the team does not have two goalies, a SPARE goalie may be chosen from a team in its league or association, and
such a "spare goalie" may be chosen from the same or a lower but not higher playing classification.
1. If a "spare" goalie is not available from within a team’s league or association, a "spare" goalie may
then be chosen from among the teams in its district; or failing the above, from its regional.
2. Such a "spare" goalie may play ONLY in the case of injury to the regular goalie.
3. The “spare” goalie shall wear the light or dark jersey of the in-season team on which they are rostered.
4. The"spare"goalieretainstheireligibilitywiththeirparentteamororganizationattheiroriginalclassifica-
tion for the balance of the playing season whether or not they actually play in the tournament in question.
5. The "spare" goalie must be properly registered on a MH team for the season in question to be eligible to participate in a regional or state tournament. Proof of registration, such as a copy of their parent team's registration roster will be required during tournament check-in. NOTE: the objective of the rule is to allow a team to obtain a back-up goalkeeper during regional and state MH play. The rule is not
intended to permit teams to improve their goaltending through drafting of an additional player.
6. Must be approved by the releasing/receiving District Director(s) using the MH Substitute Goalie Form.

Looks to me like they are in clear violation of the rules! Also, there is nothing in the D10 handbook so one would tend to follow the guidelines set down by the governing body of Minnesota Hockey. Who ever allowed this is going to have some explaining to do. It would seem like any player even playing in the same tournament are eligible, I know of a couple of teams that would like to grab some players from the high school now that the season is over who are still age eligible. If you think that point of view is over the top, I would say give me any form of logic that would justify this blatant disregard for the rules. And it sounds as though this goalie is on vacation, not injured, not sick. Completely wrong! Looking at the schedule I would recommend Elk River file a grievance as soon as possible to put an end to this. They are setting a very dangerous presidence here if this is allowed to happen. One game they have Chisago's 14U goalie playing her second D10 tournament game of the day, and now they are having the Andover Bantam A goalie playing on Thursday against Elk River? Doesn't seem right to me.

You need to read paragraph D.
Also, 14U and Bantams are equal by MH definition. And that's a good thing.

GREEN MONSTER · Post by **GREEN MONSTER** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:50 am

Bantam or not has no bearing here. The fact that they are allowing Andover to switch goalies around and carry girls that are rostered on 2 different teams, both of which are playing in a tournament is where the issue lies. As I understand it Andover Bantam A's are playing in the championship game next Sunday so where is this heading? And again, there goalie is NOT injured.

SuperStuds · Post by **SuperStuds** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:32 am

Green Monster! You may want to consider doing a little more homework on this subject before making any judgements!

1.) A "SPARE" goalie may only be used if the regular goalie is INJURED!

2.) A "REPLACEMENT" goalie may be used when the regular goalie in "UNAVAILABLE"

spin-o-rama · Post by **spin-o-rama** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:09 pm

GM, a Q for you.
What would you do if the goalie for your kid's team was unavailable for districts?
Can you understand the value of the rule from that perspective?

Tigers33 · Post by **Tigers33** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:32 pm

Seriously green monster...All you do is complain about things. It's U14 hockey for crying out loud. We are not talking about the olympics here.

Geez...take up more hobbies so complaining isnt the only thing you do.

royals dad · Post by **royals dad** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:56 pm

spin-o-rama wrote:GM, a Q for you.
What would you do if the goalie for your kid's team was unavailable for districts?
Can you understand the value of the rule from that perspective?

In truth I think the team should forfeit, yes everybody looses but if your the only goalie on a team and you bail for vacation I'm sorry but you cost your team the game. The other team looses a game they could have played as well. Anyone in travel hockey gives up vacations, weekends at the cabin, family dinners,, .... If someone signs up for hockey they sign up for that, if they choose to bail then they screw their team. Its not like an injury or a death in the family. Sorry girls its been a fun season but I need some sun.

If the DD does allow it though you play the game and win or loose it is what it is.

spin-o-rama · Post by **spin-o-rama** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:53 pm

Wow, you would rather 2 teams not play a game because 1 kid won't be there? I'm glad the DD is able to step in and help out.

GREEN MONSTER · Post by **GREEN MONSTER** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:08 pm

Spin, not trying to incite an argument, but isn't there some sort of responsibility to be held by Andover here? And in all honesty, it seems to be a little unfair to any team playing them. As a coach I would dress a player and put her in nets for as many games as needed. If any recall, last year Moundsview didn't have a goalie all season and they made do. I just find the fact that they are bouncing from goalie to goalie the problem, I believe a waiver should be given, but only to one, not multiple. I dont feel this is unreasonable. as I said in my previous post, where is this heading? Again I will say that I believe Andover should be held accountable in some way.

SS I have read the rule book, have you?

Tiger, don't get angry, has no bearing on me one way or another. Just was contributing to the discussion.

SuperStuds · Post by **SuperStuds** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:07 pm

Green- Since you know the rule you would know that one waiver would not be enough considering the rest rule and district 10 teams all start on the same weekend. The rule is a MH rule adopted by D10 and to stay within the rule it seems they have no other choice but to use multiple goalies! Responsibility? Don't you think that should be on the parents who planned a vacation that falls over districts? Why the team? Again, why should Andover be held accountable when they are following the rules? Hold Minnesota Hockey accountable for having the rule!!!

OnTheBench · Post by **OnTheBench** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:20 am

It does appear that D-10 has had a policy to not allow substitute goalies during the regular season based on the minutes from multiple recent district board meetings. This if from the Feb 6 meeting:
"D-10 does not allow substitute goalies, except for District, Regional and State Tournament play as stated under MNH Youth Rules, Section VI, Paragraph C. Any exceptions to this rule would have to be approved by the D-10 Director"

This is baffling to me, especially for the girls where most teams only have one goalie. What if she is sick, has a school conflict, etc. Previous meeting minutes do indicate that goalie substitution has been a topic of discussion and the quote above does say that the D-10 director does have the discretion to make exceptions to this policy. I know that other districts do have written policies for this situation and a quick search reveals that the following policy is in use by at least D3, D6, and D8:

Policy
In the event a rostered goalie(s) is not able to participate in a scrimmage, league, invitational tournament or District Tournament game, a substitute goalie may play in place of the rostered goalie provided;
• The substitute goalie is not from a higher level team (division or level)
• The substitute goalie is acquired first from within the local association and second from teams within the District or league.
• The substitute goalie must wear the jersey from his/her home team
• The substitute goalie must abide by the player rest rules as stated in Youth Rules, Section VIII, Para J.
• Substituting does not interfere with activities of his/her home team
• Substitute goalie may play ONLY if rostered goalies are not able to play.
• Must have the approval of the District Director (Both Directors if more than one District is involved) on the Substitute Goalie form.
Note: Regional and State Tournament play are covered under Youth Rules, Section VI, Para. C

The form on the D6 website is on Minnesota Hockey letterhead so it looks like it was at least involved in writing the policy. I'm guessing each district has the discretion to follow it or not. If the Andover situation had occured in one of the districts that have adopted this policy, then it looks like what is happening follows these rules explicitly. I'm guessing that the D10 director has elected to follow this policy in this situation.

Finally, I'd just like to point out that if the person on vacation were a skater then nobody outside the team involved would care or even know, but when you are THE goalie there is a pressure to not miss any games for any reason. Why should the goalie's family have to bear a responsibility that no other families have to? None of us know the situation of the family that is "on vacation" but that is what happens when a thread begins "We heard through the grapevine that..." I know I can come up with multiple situations where the right decision for the family is to go on the trip.

iceglo · Post by **iceglo** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:58 am

OnTheBench wrote:Finally, I'd just like to point out that if the person on vacation were a skater then nobody outside the team involved would care or even know, but when you are THE goalie there is a pressure to not miss any games for any reason. Why should the goalie's family have to bear a responsibility that no other families have to? None of us know the situation of the family that is "on vacation" but that is what happens when a thread begins "We heard through the grapevine that..." I know I can come up with multiple situations where the right decision for the family is to go on the trip.

Hear, hear! As a goalie parent, I appreciate this sentiment. It's very tough schedule-wise to be the only goalie on a team. You can't miss ANYTHING especially games. Even missing a practice is hard for the team.

And let's not get started on fear of injury from other activities the goalie loves (like snowboarding)... (We do let our daughter do those things because she has to have a life outside hockey, too.)

allhoc11 · Post by **allhoc11** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:39 pm

iceglo wrote: And let's not get started on fear of injury from other activities the goalie loves (like snowboarding)... (We do let our daughter do those things because she has to have a life outside hockey, too.)

You let your daughter have a life outside of hockey, what kind of monster are you?

HockeyDad2016 · Post by **HockeyDad2016** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:01 pm

I heard it through the grapevine that this Bantam A girl goalie is very good. Is it an automatic win tonite for Andover?

iceglo · Post by **iceglo** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:47 pm

allhoc11 wrote:
iceglo wrote: And let's not get started on fear of injury from other activities the goalie loves (like snowboarding)... (We do let our daughter do those things because she has to have a life outside hockey, too.)
You let your daughter have a life outside of hockey, what kind of monster are you?

Yes, it's horrible. Isn't it?

Maybe I'll be banned from these boards for such a cavalier attitude!

BlackTape · Post by **BlackTape** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:22 pm

HockeyDad2016 wrote:I heard it through the grapevine that this Bantam A girl goalie is very good. Is it an automatic win tonite for Andover?

Elks win 3-2 in ot

minnesotatier2 · Post by **minnesotatier2** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:12 am

BlackTape wrote:
HockeyDad2016 wrote:I heard it through the grapevine that this Bantam A girl goalie is very good. Is it an automatic win tonite for Andover?
Elks win 3-2 in ot

i wouldnt say thats its automatic i was at the u14 game the girl goalie was in and she lost the game for the girls. When she gets to high school she will have to be ready or JV backup is her spot.

luckyEPDad · Post by **luckyEPDad** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:10 am

minnesotatier2 wrote:
BlackTape wrote:
HockeyDad2016 wrote:I heard it through the grapevine that this Bantam A girl goalie is very good. Is it an automatic win tonite for Andover?
Elks win 3-2 in ot
i wouldnt say thats its automatic i was at the u14 game the girl goalie was in and she lost the game for the girls. When she gets to high school she will have to be ready or JV backup is her spot.

Being unfamiliar with her defense it doesn't surprise me that she was weaker than their normal goalie. I saw Andover play a few times this season and their D and goalie were very good, their offense not so much. They aren't the type of team that beats you. They're the type of team that is really easy to lose against. Mistakes are costly against Andover.

OnTheBench · Post by **OnTheBench** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:09 am

minnesotatier2 wrote:
BlackTape wrote:
HockeyDad2016 wrote:I heard it through the grapevine that this Bantam A girl goalie is very good. Is it an automatic win tonite for Andover?
Elks win 3-2 in ot
i wouldnt say thats its automatic i was at the u14 game the girl goalie was in and she lost the game for the girls. When she gets to high school she will have to be ready or JV backup is her spot.

Just curious Tier2, what exactly did this goalie do to lose the game for Andover? Obviously the Elks scored in overtime for the win so she is credited with the loss, but it seems a bit harsh to blame the loss on her after only giving up two goals in regulation on a team that allowed 3 goals or more in a third of their games this year and gave up 5 the last time they played the Elks. For her to have been the one to lose the game for the team, I'm assuming there were zero instances the whole game where an Andover skater had a legitimate scoring opportunity but missed the net or shot the puck directly into the other goalie's chest since those "mistakes" can be just as important in a loss as a soft goal allowed by the goalie. Maybe the skaters played great defense and all 3 goals were soft so she was the reason for the loss. Since you were there you'll have to let us know.

Tigers33 · Post by **Tigers33** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:01 pm

Tier2 has no clue

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:32 pm

I'd say T2 is just a kid. Cut her a little slack.

Tornadoes 2003StateChamps · Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:55 pm

Great game!

BlackTape wrote:
HockeyDad2016 wrote:I heard it through the grapevine that this Bantam A girl goalie is very good. Is it an automatic win tonite for Andover?
Elks win 3-2 in ot