Winning Teams/Programs

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:26 am

Some high school coaches help out more than others, who help out more than those that dont help out at all doesnt provide support for the statement: "the youth programs depend on the high school." Most high school coaches from Nov 15 thru Feb 15, and some beyond, simply dont have the time to make any kind of substantial contribution. There arent enough hours in the day. The day to day work is done by the coaches who are out there at 7:00 on Saturday morning with the Mites and their "walkers" and 10:00 every night with the Bantams. The day to day work is done by the volunteers who handle the finances , scheduling, concessions, work the box and the clock etc. etc. I would doubt that you could find a high school coach nor any boby else associated with the school district who would claim that the youth program depends on him/her or them in any way. If they did, I would grab a barf bag and hang with puckingood. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... ckerboy</A> at: 12/14/05 9:45 am

NPGandyDancer · Post by **NPGandyDancer** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:14 am

knowlze. have to disagree with your posit that no coach could reverse a losing program into a championship/winning one. trebil could turn things around at sleepy eye and make them a contender. lets say trebil wanted to move to sleepy eye, booking out of the hectic metro lifestyle, and take on the challenges of building their dynasty. it may take a year or two...but players and coaches would follow this guy and his methodology of hockey like a magnet. i'm rooting for sleepy eye to win at least one game this year after last years winless run.

Neutron 14 · Post by **Neutron 14** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:26 am

Excellent posts, without getting into the "tastes great/less filling" public vs private. Sheesh, I even agree with Knowlze!<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin"> By far the #1 reason for having success is prior success, which draws the better athletes and numbers to the youth programs. The kids could care less who the high school coach is, let alone his vision. Once kids start winning in the youth programs, they tend to stick together through high school (Centennial). The community builds the trough that the high school feeds on. If the high school is successful, it draws even more kids to restock the trough (Edina). It does start with the "Elliott70's" and packerboys though. Because a good coach can draw talented kids away from other programs and "assemble" a great team, obviously causes resentment/jealousy/bitterness to the community that spawned them. It's human nature.

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:30 pm

I hear ya Neut. When we start agreeing with Knowlze, we are in big trouble..... I take back everyhing I said<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> But the crafty Knowlze said it right and Elliott(politician or not) summed it up pretty good..... for being a non Catholic.

Bart82 · Post by **Bart82** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:49 pm

What would we do without you, Packerboy? You clearly have all of the answers. You're right - the pioneers of high school hockey had nothing to do with the youth hockey culture. I stand corrected by another self appointed parental expert. You and your cheering section can't aknowledge the obvious.

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:21 pm

Well Bart, To answer the question posed in the first sentence of your post: You would have a forum that isnt as much fun. As to the second sentence of your post: So stipulated. As to the third sentence, da Pioneers might win it all this season if da Bears don't get their act together. As to the last sentence....dont be dissin my homies.

gunslinger · Post by **gunslinger** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:29 pm

As I have systematically read each entry to this ongoing debate it is obvious that the gap between how you view PRIVATE vs. PUBLIC seems to simply widen. Is it apples to apples? Maybe, maybe not? Is it fair, maybe, maybe not? The reality is this “ya got what ya got!” We have to accept the fact that in 2005 that our system is what it is! People debate “one class” systems, kids being plucked by juniors, the sectional tournament system, and countless other issues within the hockey rankings. When you look at the issues within the private vs. public debate it often seems that it creates often logical people to become very illogical when it comes to their views and opinions. We must be realistic and admit that most if not all private and even some public (Warroad) schools do recruit. We also must be real at the same time and admit that many public school coaches use their local bantam teams as a feeder to their programs. So, is it not recruiting when a coach from public school “A” watches the kids from Bantam Team “A” and instructs the coaches of Bantam team “A” to do certain things to improve that kids skills to fit his team or program? Or, is it that this is acceptable because it is a local team which feeds the high school program? And on the other side, wouldn’t it be considered recruiting when you extend your program to a particular bantam that was having a fantastic year by inviting him to visit your schools Campus? Isn’t it recruiting when you knowingly have kids playing in your program because one of your current players “befriends” a player on a fall league team or summer team? And these are just the things we see… Im sure that many public schools cross the line on other occasions using the “power” of head coach to get what he wants. Just like the private coach who crosses the line by landing kids to play who at one point had no intention of playing at a private school. I guess the bottom line is… lets just admit that it all evens out… each has some advantages and disadvantages… -The Slinger <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif ALT=":hat">

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:18 pm

Slinger, you basically have just restated the private school "defense" position. People dont agree with it. I do but I can assure you that a lot of fine posters dont.

Knowlze · Post by **Knowlze** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:01 pm

NP - I am not so sure we disagree. Reread post #223,"....immediately be successfull, unless...". I do understand your reluctance to publicly agree with the radical Knowlze. If the present AHA coach were to move, I think it would be more difficult, as he is further removed from a successfull youth program. However, he has built quite a name for himself, and would have that going for him. Neut/Packerboy - Has to be tramatic to be in agreement with the radical one. I am sincerely flattered,...and that you would admit it on this public forum. Bart - Keep your head up, many good pitches, you threw one bad pitch (hanging curveball). lotta game left. Slinger - I just read 5 paragraphs and not sure what you said (Packerboy is more adept at post interpretation). Are you and Elliott political runningmates? Have got to go, more snow to shovel.

Neutron 14 · Post by **Neutron 14** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:50 pm

Slinger, The playing field is hardly level, so things don't even out. I don't have any problem with the AA privates, but I do see community based high school hockey being seriously degraded with the proliferation of private programs and open enrollment. Is this just progress? Destined for the Honey Baked's? Maybe I'm just too nostalgic for the good old days... Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... 14>Neutron 14</A> at: 12/14/05 6:01 pm

CoachGriswold · Post by **CoachGriswold** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:27 pm

<div style="text-align:center">If you put your ear to the west, you can begin to hear a distant rumbling, whose tone is growing louder and louder......Edina will begin a run very soon, perhaps not this year, but from 2007-09 winning at least two state championships....The bleeding has stopped. Check your vents if you think it aint.... P.S.-Do you homework before you write something stupid by the way... Emerald City Engineer-CG<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/alien.gif ALT="0]"> P.S.S-The purists should appreciate a first ring suburb that is perfectly public. </div> Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... riswold</A> at: 12/14/05 8:30 pm

SB24 · Post by **SB24** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:11 pm

what homework will prove that Edina will be able to keep the kids in edina? Play another sport if ya dont got what it takes to DangleMcFangle.

Bart82 · Post by **Bart82** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:06 pm

Packerboy, Well said - it wouldn't be as much fun. For a man who seems to honor tradition, you seem to be "dissing" some of those people who are responsible for the great game of hockey at the youth and high school level. Youth Hockey Volunteers such as yourself and me stand shoulder to should with many - not all!- High School Coaches [I've worked with a few of these men. It's not a phantom thought.] It's called the hockey community. And no gang slang allowed at Catholic Schools. Please Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... >Bart82</A> at: 12/14/05 10:13 pm

gunslinger · Post by **gunslinger** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:34 am

Packerboy..... I thought maybe you could "read between the lines" and infer what I was trying to say! Again... it seems that many people cannot put asside their personal beliefs and just look at the hockey situation for what it is! As for open enrollment in the later post... I dont by it... I honestly dont think it happens all that much... and personally... again.. its just part of the system... is it broke? Im not sure... but its part of the system! -The Slinger<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif ALT=":hat">

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:15 am

I am as traditional as the next guy but we have to live in the modern world. I think good youth programs in todays world have to have coachng coordinators who are qualified men and women who can find, recruit and to the degree necessary train a coaching saff that will develop kids. Where I grew up, one guy would coach the high school team for 20 years ,retire and the next guy would do it until he died. We had the same Batam A coach for 20 years. Nowadays, what is the average tenure for a high school coach? Some of these guys are here today, gone tommorrow.We can teach kids their system but if the Squirt A is taught the system, odds are there will be a new coach by the time he is a Bantam A So, smart, well run programs will not depend on the high school coach for advice and direction. To the extent we can get some from time to time, fine but we dont and shouldnt depend on it. Also, as it relates to the younger kids especially, our programs coaches are more quailified than the high school coaches. They have been to the seminars and are certified to teach young kids how to skate. One more thing I have learned. Good coaches dont like to be told how to coach. We dont all have to coach the same way nor teach the same things. Let the kids get exposed to differrent styles and philosophies...its all good. Why do we all have to do the same breakout? Its uneccessary and in the opinion of some, stifiling. So,I disagree with the proposition that the "truly good " programs work hand in hand with the high school and are better for it.

Bart82 · Post by **Bart82** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:38 am

traditional modernism? Sounds like Clintonspeak to me.

Bart82 · Post by **Bart82** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 12:20 pm

1.It is not my assertion that the high school coach is the glue that holds youth hockey together. The job is too big and there is just too much to do. BUT - the high school can - and does - provide a lot of the things that you are talking about Packerboy. I personally know of high school coaches who assist in recruiting, interviewing, and working with potential coaches. 2. Your point of the average tenure of a high school coach is a point well taken. But I'm still waiting for you to challenge my much earlier point that some high school coaches have been removed because THEY DON'T work with the youth hockey folks. And if the high school coach is irrelevant to the youth program then please tell me why MANY high school athletic directors place youth hockey people on interview committees? 3. Any high school coach worth a damn could care less if the 12 year olds are doing his breakout. It's about skills at that level - but I understand what you're saying. Just because you are a good high school coach doesn't mean you know how to teach power skating. Any good coach would like to learn from another good coach. Do you suppose that the pee wee coach in Warroad three years ago told Cary Eades to go jump because Eades didn't have his advanced certifcation card? But just because you're certified doesn't mean you know how to coach. That sounds like a good government program to me. Ever have a lousy state certified teacher? With that said, it's difficult to say just who is most qualified. Go to a clinic. Get a patch. Now you know how to teach the game? Perhaps. Nothing replaces having former players who know the game and have come through a quality system. Edina has a terrific youth system and one only needs to look at all of the former players who now coach there. Mixed bag as always. But I started this marathon discussion by pointing to the top programs - and those programs generally attract the best coaching talents. No doubt that youth hockey coaches are great and there are many high schools that have looked to fill their coaching vacancies with these outstanding individuals. 4. I guess this brings us to the core issue. Just what should the role of the high school coach be with the youth hockey system? I still submit that some of the very best youth programs and high school programs find a way to work together - and there are numerous examples of those that do. It's history - "just read it."That point is as obvious as this post is long. Jefferson, Edina, Moorhead, Duluth East all have enjoyed this tradition; how true it still is for some of those programs I can't say for sure. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... >Bart82</A> at: 12/15/05 12:55 pm

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:31 pm

Well, I had forgotten your question. How in the heck do I know! Can anyone be confident that they know the "real reason" why a coach got fired. Do you know why Randolf got fired at DE? I know people who say they know but they each have a different answer. But the better question is "why do some AD's insist on their coaches being involved" I thnk the answer is that it helps the high school. Its good PR for the school. I am sure that is is clear from my posts that I don't have any criticism of coaches who dont get involved. The reason for that is I really dont think that they can have any material impact on the program. I think a lot of the coaches feel the same way. I think some high school coaches are relunctant to give a lot of direction as to how to run a youth program and for good reason...they dont know. Obviously certification is no guarantee that a guy will be a good coach. But these guys in charge of the younger kids now know alot more aout how things are done at the younger ages than the high school coaches. There were no Squirts and Mites when I was growing up. It stated at PeeWee. The younger coaches today did go thru it but how many of them were exposed to power skating. In a nutshell, youth hockey is very different than high school hockey. Because some one is qualified to be a high school coach doesnt mean they know jack about youth. Because of that and the other stuff Ive mentioned,including the time restraints on these guys, many of whom have their own families, maybe the better question is "How much impact can they have?" Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... ckerboy</A> at: 12/15/05 1:38 pm

Bart82 · Post by **Bart82** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:40 pm

Of course, you had forgotten the question - you haven't answered about a half a dozen of them. I've tried to answer yours head on - even when you've dropped kicked me once, o.k. - maybe twice. Always answering a question with a question! You are a cagey one ; must have had some Jesuit training. Perhaps ADs include Youth Hockey because they are responding a grass roots request, complaints, etc. But it does shoot some holes in your theory that the high school coach is irrleevant to the youth hockey effort. I'll throw it open to folks from Edina, Jefferson, Moorhead, Duluth East - how much impact has the high school progam had on coaches and youth program?

Knowlze · Post by **Knowlze** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 2:51 pm

Tradition is for holidays. Merry Christmas to all, by the way. I really don't think any of the successful teams win because the have introduced the HS system to the squirts, peewees and bantams. But, I think successful teams have skilled players. The goal of youth hockey should be to develop skilled players. Both publics and privates get players from the youth programs, public tends to be more localized and privates more regional, for obvious reasons. In either case the HS coach plays with what he gets, all developed from youth programs. The public HS does not have dibs on the skilled local players, nor should they. The publics do have an advantage in attracting the local talent, because they are local, precisely why the HS coach should be interested in the development of the local youth programs, the HS coach reaps the benefit (or not). All successful public teams have received a group of talented players from the local youth program. The Slinger is right, very few public players actually open enroll, and the few that do enroll, do so usually because there already is a core of talented players from the local youth program. Therefore, if people are concerned about losing local talent, the answer is to develop and maintain a successful youth program, not hinder the movement of individual players that may want to improve themselves by playing with another team. The degradation of any HS team is not the fault of open enrollment, but rather the lack of a quality youth program. Minnesota hockey will maintain its hockey tradition as long as quality youth programs are maintained, or better yet, improved.

Bart82 · Post by **Bart82** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:07 am

Ask any player from the great high school programs - private or public - if being a part of a great winning tradition and program doesn't matter to them. It motivates them and it motivates a lot of youth coaches, too. Knowlze, do you really want to tell me that an Elk River Elk or a Duluth East Greyhound , or a Hill Murray Pioneer who has since graduated does not feel a great sense of pride at having been a part of that great tradtion? It is that pride, enjoyment, yes - sense of tradition that causes them to put something back into the game. The vehicle is the youth program; it's the foundation - along with the thousands of volunteers- as packeboy, et. al have noted here. No one debates or questions that. I just don't see how anyone can maintain that the high school program don't play a vital role in this. It has to do with Motivation and Leadership. When I used to coach pee wee and bantam youth hockey I didn't believe that I was helping the local high school or coach. But I did feel a sense of investment - and pride- in those kids who went onto play for the high school team. And that was the goal of those kids on that Pee Wee team. That's what stoked them. They wanted to play for the local team. Why do you think the youth hockey jerseys match the colors of the high school team? No connection? Please. Youth coaches matter -more than the high school coach; I've NEVER have argued that. However, where we disagree is that I still believe that the high school coach has a vital role to play. With that said, there are numerous programs that used have winnng traditions and because of demographics, economy, philosophy, etc.that tradition no longer exists. So from that standpoint the tradition is gone - and it may be just for the holidays. In any event, a Merry Christmas to you Knowlz - traditionally speaking. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... >Bart82</A> at: 12/16/05 9:17 am

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:33 am

Bart, Knowlze provides us with very well articulated posts that accurately reflect an attitude that is very prevelant today. It might be repugnat to us but he lays it right out there. Its the "I, ME, whats in MY best intersts, how can I develop better," thing that's been goin on. If a player who was "stuck"with a team that was .500, open enrolled to a team that made the section finals or the state tournament,....Knowlze would pop champagne and celebrate the players opportunity. Knowlze would then cite some percieved inadequacy with the school or the coach or youth program to justify it all. Thats whats out there and nobody expresses it better than our Freedom Rider ,Knowlze. The point is: Whatever your perception is/was of the connection between the local youth programs and the high school, things have changed. Its traditionally, the new old fashioned way.

Neutron 14 · Post by **Neutron 14** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:23 pm

here we go again... <img src="http://images.animationfactory.com/imag ... _lg_wm.gif" style="border:0;"/>

NPGandyDancer · Post by **NPGandyDancer** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:46 pm

neutrino...love it man! i've stepped in that bucket a few times. the posts have been lucid. call me old school, but, lets get that sleepy eye program squared away. the small guys deserve some ink too, eh? i know packer, i'm off-topic, but, is it not all interelated to some degree?

Bart82 · Post by **Bart82** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:32 pm

The game board/model has changed. I'm fully aware of that and I have never denied it. So, I don't know why you believe that I think otherwise. I suppose I've hammered on the traditional point because few here will even admit that the high school coaches had a lot to do with planting the youth programs and nurturing them. It's a fact and you can deny it until the cows come home - regardless of how articulate (real or imagined) your expression. All of us love high school hockey. I'm not anti-private. Hell, I was defending Hill Murray before I even knew what people were complaining about. Private schools are a part of that tradition. The question is how to best nurture that tradition so that we continue to develop terrific youth hockey players. That's what started my lengthy participation in this discussion. I'm concerned that it continues and that it is nourished. The model has changed. I know that and Perhaps, youth programs should be done away with and everything should be Triple A - call it the complete privatization of hockey. And, no, that is not a hidden swipe at Private schools. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... >Bart82</A> at: 12/16/05 1:34 pm

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Winning Teams/Programs

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