CoVid-19

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goldy313
Posts: 3608
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 11:56 am

Re: CoVid-19

Post by goldy313 » Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:26 pm

As of this morning Mayo Rochester reported >10 hospitalizations due to COVID-19, Mayo is a regional, multi state provider. (There are other hospitals in the area not affiliated with Mayo in Northfield, LaCrosse, Rochester, Mason City, and Winona.) Granted, the population density in SE/SCMinnesota, NE Iowa, and SW Wisconsin isn’t the same as New York City, as a guess the entire population of this area is probably 1-20 of NYC in an area bigger than NYC + New Jersey but still >10? I do not what that means long term but maybe living on top of one another is a huge factor in this.

InThePipes
Posts: 632
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:26 pm

Re: CoVid-19

Post by InThePipes » Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:31 am

goldy313 wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:26 pm
As of this morning Mayo Rochester reported >10 hospitalizations due to COVID-19, Mayo is a regional, multi state provider. (There are other hospitals in the area not affiliated with Mayo in Northfield, LaCrosse, Rochester, Mason City, and Winona.) Granted, the population density in SE/SCMinnesota, NE Iowa, and SW Wisconsin isn’t the same as New York City, as a guess the entire population of this area is probably 1-20 of NYC in an area bigger than NYC + New Jersey but still >10? I do not what that means long term but maybe living on top of one another is a huge factor in this.
There is no "but maybe" about it

grindiangrad-80
Posts: 2485
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:00 pm

Re: CoVid-19

Post by grindiangrad-80 » Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:16 am

I am certainly no medical expert here but I believe Goldy hit it pretty well a few posts ago. If the country stays locked down much longer we will have problems far exceeding the virus. I can see no reason why we can’t protect the most vulnerable and also let those not at heightened risk to get this economy rolling again.

The vast majority of the people at elevated risk are already in some type of medical care. Continue to keep them isolated as much as possible. Allow visits through glass windows and video conference, etc.

I still believe that freedom of speech is one of our most important rights as Americans. I also believe that the media is crucial to our country in general. I just wish they would get back to informing us of what is important and stop misinforming us because it sells.

JMHO

jg2112
Posts: 660
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:36 am

Re: CoVid-19

Post by jg2112 » Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:26 am

grindiangrad-80 wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:16 am
I am certainly no medical expert here but I believe Goldy hit it pretty well a few posts ago. If the country stays locked down much longer we will have problems far exceeding the virus. I can see no reason why we can’t protect the most vulnerable and also let those not at heightened risk to get this economy rolling again.

The vast majority of the people at elevated risk are already in some type of medical care. Continue to keep them isolated as much as possible. Allow visits through glass windows and video conference, etc.

I still believe that freedom of speech is one of our most important rights as Americans. I also believe that the media is crucial to our country in general. I just wish they would get back to informing us of what is important and stop misinforming us because it sells.

JMHO
We would be able to "get this economy rolling again" if we let the virus run its course NOW by starving it out by staying at home, and then have a comprehensive testing and tracing regime like other countries (Germany, with its trained physician as head of state, is the #1 example, along with South Korea, New Zealand, etc.).

If there's inadequate testing, and there is (1% tested at this point), we'll be back in shutdown in July/August, the economy will crater again, schools will not open in September, and we will lose the 2020-21 sports season. Our country is flying blind, seemingly by design.

Wet Paint
Posts: 190
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:23 pm

Re: CoVid-19

Post by Wet Paint » Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:29 am

InThePipes wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 6:31 am
goldy313 wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:26 pm
As of this morning Mayo Rochester reported >10 hospitalizations due to COVID-19, Mayo is a regional, multi state provider. (There are other hospitals in the area not affiliated with Mayo in Northfield, LaCrosse, Rochester, Mason City, and Winona.) Granted, the population density in SE/SCMinnesota, NE Iowa, and SW Wisconsin isn’t the same as New York City, as a guess the entire population of this area is probably 1-20 of NYC in an area bigger than NYC + New Jersey but still >10? I do not what that means long term but maybe living on top of one another is a huge factor in this.
There is no "but maybe" about it
Through out history over crowding has been a huge factor in plagues. Starting back with the beginning of the study of epidemiology was looking at Cholera. A bacteria that is water borne and gets into the water from fecal contamination. That was London. Black death wiped out something like 50% of the population of Europe, spread by fleas found on rats due to the crowded conditions the people were living in. They used to shoot dead bodies over the walls into cities that were under siege using a catapult in hopes that what ever killed the person would catch on and spread through out the city. Look at where the major centers of illness are now. Big cites where they are crowded in, nursing homes where the population is high density, prisons where the population is high density. It even shows up in our state with places like the Mpls/StP counties having high numbers. I agree with the people who say we need to get back to work. I posted a list of problems that in my mind are as bad as the virus a few pages back. That list stands. The nursing homes should have been locked down, the high risk populations are all aware of the issue by not and are protecting themselves. We need to take care of our vulnerable by doing stuff like telemedicine, grocery delivery and etc without question. But a young, healthy population needs to be let out. Yes, some of them will get sick, and some of the will die. Over all more of them will get killed in car wrecks on the way to and from work though. The biggest issue that I see right now is cheating and frustration. The governor has decided to lock down into the middle of may. People are going out more and more right now. It won't be long before businesses open on the down low. The attitude is rapidly becoming, they can't arrest us all. It will open up, either in a controlled way that is as safe as we can make it or it will be the wild west.

The issue of over crowding and disease is not just a human issue. Chronic wasting disease is spread by crowding. Blue nose wiped out about 90% of the white tail deer in ND, it was spread by crowding, Hog farms and turkey farms have huge containment and control measures in place to prevent the spread of disease within the facilities. The list goes on and on and has since the beginning of time. We just never had a 24 hour news cycle full of talking "experts" who's whole purpose in life is to get on TV and scare the crap out of us.

Wet Paint
Posts: 190
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:23 pm

Re: CoVid-19

Post by Wet Paint » Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:07 am

jg2112 wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:26 am
grindiangrad-80 wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:16 am
I am certainly no medical expert here but I believe Goldy hit it pretty well a few posts ago. If the country stays locked down much longer we will have problems far exceeding the virus. I can see no reason why we can’t protect the most vulnerable and also let those not at heightened risk to get this economy rolling again.

The vast majority of the people at elevated risk are already in some type of medical care. Continue to keep them isolated as much as possible. Allow visits through glass windows and video conference, etc.

I still believe that freedom of speech is one of our most important rights as Americans. I also believe that the media is crucial to our country in general. I just wish they would get back to informing us of what is important and stop misinforming us because it sells.

JMHO
We would be able to "get this economy rolling again" if we let the virus run its course NOW by starving it out by staying at home, and then have a comprehensive testing and tracing regime like other countries (Germany, with its trained physician as head of state, is the #1 example, along with South Korea, New Zealand, etc.).

If there's inadequate testing, and there is (1% tested at this point), we'll be back in shutdown in July/August, the economy will crater again, schools will not open in September, and we will lose the 2020-21 sports season. Our country is flying blind, seemingly by design.
We won't have a country left if we don't get moving. Yes, there will be a spike again. There will be anyhow. We are not going to starve it out. How are you going to protect yourself from the next virus out there? Covid 20 or whatever. I get what you are saying but we need to look at the odds and do what is best over all. We could open up the economy and let the young healthy people get back to work. And, sad to say, more of them will be killed in car wrecks, from heart disease and etc than will be killed by a Covid Related illness. The virus is not going to go away, it will always be there. And more and more are going to go around. Right now a person can be in the deepest part of the jungles in Africa or the Amazon rainforest where lots of virii we don't want in our population are and be in downtown Chicago or New York within 24 hours. The average virus takes at least 72 hours to show signs after you are infected. This is the new world order now. The cure can not be worse than the disease. This is not by design unless you are talking about one political party wanting to keeps stuff shut off for political gain which I would believe. We need to protect our vulnerable people and get back to work. Already I am hearing people saying that we will just go back to open because they can't arrest us all. Honestly I like sports and going to a movie and etc but those are optional activities that I do when I have the time and the money. If I don't have a job so I don't have a paycheck I won't support them because I can't. Way more to worry about here than hockey.

jg2112
Posts: 660
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:36 am

Re: CoVid-19

Post by jg2112 » Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:25 am

Wet Paint wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:07 am
jg2112 wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:26 am
grindiangrad-80 wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:16 am
I am certainly no medical expert here but I believe Goldy hit it pretty well a few posts ago. If the country stays locked down much longer we will have problems far exceeding the virus. I can see no reason why we can’t protect the most vulnerable and also let those not at heightened risk to get this economy rolling again.

The vast majority of the people at elevated risk are already in some type of medical care. Continue to keep them isolated as much as possible. Allow visits through glass windows and video conference, etc.

I still believe that freedom of speech is one of our most important rights as Americans. I also believe that the media is crucial to our country in general. I just wish they would get back to informing us of what is important and stop misinforming us because it sells.

JMHO
We would be able to "get this economy rolling again" if we let the virus run its course NOW by starving it out by staying at home, and then have a comprehensive testing and tracing regime like other countries (Germany, with its trained physician as head of state, is the #1 example, along with South Korea, New Zealand, etc.).

If there's inadequate testing, and there is (1% tested at this point), we'll be back in shutdown in July/August, the economy will crater again, schools will not open in September, and we will lose the 2020-21 sports season. Our country is flying blind, seemingly by design.
We won't have a country left if we don't get moving. Yes, there will be a spike again. There will be anyhow. We are not going to starve it out. How are you going to protect yourself from the next virus out there? Covid 20 or whatever. I get what you are saying but we need to look at the odds and do what is best over all. We could open up the economy and let the young healthy people get back to work. And, sad to say, more of them will be killed in car wrecks, from heart disease and etc than will be killed by a Covid Related illness. The virus is not going to go away, it will always be there. And more and more are going to go around. Right now a person can be in the deepest part of the jungles in Africa or the Amazon rainforest where lots of virii we don't want in our population are and be in downtown Chicago or New York within 24 hours. The average virus takes at least 72 hours to show signs after you are infected. This is the new world order now. The cure can not be worse than the disease. This is not by design unless you are talking about one political party wanting to keeps stuff shut off for political gain which I would believe. We need to protect our vulnerable people and get back to work. Already I am hearing people saying that we will just go back to open because they can't arrest us all. Honestly I like sports and going to a movie and etc but those are optional activities that I do when I have the time and the money. If I don't have a job so I don't have a paycheck I won't support them because I can't. Way more to worry about here than hockey.
If there was a comprehensive testing regime (like Germany or South Korea) and contact tracing in the US, we'd all be back at work already.

We all know why it didn't get set up in January and February. The fact it still doesn't exist 3 months into this pandemic is farce in the "richest country in the world." There's no national attempt to get this under control, only blame-shifting and name-calling. That's the current problem.

InThePipes
Posts: 632
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:26 pm

Re: CoVid-19

Post by InThePipes » Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:10 am

jg2112 wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:25 am
Wet Paint wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:07 am
jg2112 wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:26 am


We would be able to "get this economy rolling again" if we let the virus run its course NOW by starving it out by staying at home, and then have a comprehensive testing and tracing regime like other countries (Germany, with its trained physician as head of state, is the #1 example, along with South Korea, New Zealand, etc.).

If there's inadequate testing, and there is (1% tested at this point), we'll be back in shutdown in July/August, the economy will crater again, schools will not open in September, and we will lose the 2020-21 sports season. Our country is flying blind, seemingly by design.
We won't have a country left if we don't get moving. Yes, there will be a spike again. There will be anyhow. We are not going to starve it out. How are you going to protect yourself from the next virus out there? Covid 20 or whatever. I get what you are saying but we need to look at the odds and do what is best over all. We could open up the economy and let the young healthy people get back to work. And, sad to say, more of them will be killed in car wrecks, from heart disease and etc than will be killed by a Covid Related illness. The virus is not going to go away, it will always be there. And more and more are going to go around. Right now a person can be in the deepest part of the jungles in Africa or the Amazon rainforest where lots of virii we don't want in our population are and be in downtown Chicago or New York within 24 hours. The average virus takes at least 72 hours to show signs after you are infected. This is the new world order now. The cure can not be worse than the disease. This is not by design unless you are talking about one political party wanting to keeps stuff shut off for political gain which I would believe. We need to protect our vulnerable people and get back to work. Already I am hearing people saying that we will just go back to open because they can't arrest us all. Honestly I like sports and going to a movie and etc but those are optional activities that I do when I have the time and the money. If I don't have a job so I don't have a paycheck I won't support them because I can't. Way more to worry about here than hockey.
If there was a comprehensive testing regime (like Germany or South Korea) and contact tracing in the US, we'd all be back at work already.

We all know why it didn't get set up in January and February. The fact it still doesn't exist 3 months into this pandemic is farce in the "richest country in the world." There's no national attempt to get this under control, only blame-shifting and name-calling. That's the current problem.
We don't live in a movie, there won't be a retinal scan that they can instantaneously conduct and allow you to board a flight or enter a stadium (well, there might be if it makes people feel more comfortable :lol: ). These tests you speak of all have significant limitations and the quicker the test results are generated the more inaccuracy they generally have.

Wet Paint
Posts: 190
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:23 pm

Re: CoVid-19

Post by Wet Paint » Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:36 am

jg2112 wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:25 am
Wet Paint wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:07 am
jg2112 wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:26 am

Snipped some stuff out to keep the post shorter.

If there was a comprehensive testing regime (like Germany or South Korea) and contact tracing in the US, we'd all be back at work already.

We all know why it didn't get set up in January and February. The fact it still doesn't exist 3 months into this pandemic is farce in the "richest country in the world." There's no national attempt to get this under control, only blame-shifting and name-calling. That's the current problem.
A couple of things. Not political, just facts. For starters the FDA controls all of the medical stuff in the USA. In order to get anything to market for humans or animals you need to go through the FDA. They are tough, very tough. The usual time frame to get something like a test for Covid through the system to be used is around 24 months and will cost you around $250,000 at least. A vaccine costs more and takes more time. Therapeutics are also more expensive and cost more to get approved. Germany and S Korea used a test they got from the WHO. Fine with me. But in order for that test to be used in the USA ___by law___ it has to be FDA approved. Pres Trump can't just say screw the law. Congress can't just say screw the law. The reason we have the FDA laws like they are is because we the people want to be as safe as we can be. THat safety costs money and takes time and gets in the way sometimes. Germany has their version of the FDA, they are totally different than our version of the FDA. I think S Korea works with Japan for regulatory stuff like that. Way different than the US's FDA. If you want to blame somebody for the log jam in testing and etc blame the FDA. They are a huge, horrible agency to work with. We let them get that way. But, a good reason for them being that way and for having that power is the fact that the early tests that were ran were only about 60% accurate. Germany and S Korea might be ok with 60%, are we?? Contact tracing is another issue. Right now the total population of Germany is 1/4th of the population of the USA. Korea is more like 1/20th or so. Both of those countries are used to being monitored and watched. We here in the USA say things like "live free or die". It is not in our make up to be followed around and monitored by the government. THey don't have a choice.

I feel your pain and can completely understand your fear of opening the country up too early. It is valid. I am on the other end of the spectrum. I have seen lots of bad things happen to people who did all that they could do to protect themselves. It is a trade off. I am in the group who says that you do all that you can to protect yourself and when you have made all of the reasonable moves then you go for it. Nothing is completely safe. Nothing is 100%. We do the best that we can and take all of the precautions we can and then we get going. The curve flattening was not intended to wipe out the virus before we went back to work. It was intended to slow the spread down so that as people became infected and sick it would be a trickle that our hospitals could deal with and not get overwhelmed.

Yoopskater
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:10 am

Re: CoVid-19

Post by Yoopskater » Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:16 am

There is no way I would want the gov’t to be able to track me to the extent that jg is talking about. Does freedom, liberty, privacy not mean anything to people anymore? Especially considering I could get Covid and maybe not even know I have it...

InThePipes
Posts: 632
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:26 pm

Re: CoVid-19

Post by InThePipes » Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:06 am

InThePipes wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:52 pm
kniven wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:10 pm
goldy313 wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:49 pm


I am fine, thanks for asking.....I went back to work Thursday. I can not comprehend how much has changed in 15 days. It was nothing more than a mild chest cold for me that lasted 3-4 days. I would not have missed work for it had I not been told to. I am lucky, so are the people I would have seen had not the Washington state people intervened.

FWIW, if you want an interesting but geek filled read to figure out what cigar is saying go to Nate Silver’s fivethirtyeight.com site and read the article “Coronavirus counts are meaningless” article. It is heavy into math but the idea comes across pretty well.

My opinion only..... you look what happened in New Orleans with Marci Gras, Miami with spring break, and in Clark County Nevada (Las Vegas), clearly we were infected at a larger rate than we initially thought. Then you have in Minnesota Olmsted County is the second highest in positive tests, so clearly testing is sub optimal.
This could be the new reality. No more high school, college, sporting events, concerts, jobs, vacations, etc. this could be the new reality from here and beyond. There is no end in sight of the fear.
Turn the news off, we're going to be fine.
Bill Maher agrees

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcvIQJ-QurQ

MrBoDangles
Posts: 4082
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:32 pm

Re: CoVid-19

Post by MrBoDangles » Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:32 pm

InThePipes wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:06 am
InThePipes wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:52 pm
kniven wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:10 pm


This could be the new reality. No more high school, college, sporting events, concerts, jobs, vacations, etc. this could be the new reality from here and beyond. There is no end in sight of the fear.
Turn the news off, we're going to be fine.
Bill Maher agrees

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcvIQJ-QurQ
Same guy that said he was hoping for a recession so that our president would lose. 4 more years just off of karma and this video would have been gone with opposite politics............................... 👎

Wise Old Man
Posts: 228
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2019 8:11 pm

Re: CoVid-19

Post by Wise Old Man » Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:46 am

InThePipes wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:06 am
InThePipes wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:52 pm
kniven wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:10 pm


This could be the new reality. No more high school, college, sporting events, concerts, jobs, vacations, etc. this could be the new reality from here and beyond. There is no end in sight of the fear.
Turn the news off, we're going to be fine.
Bill Maher agrees

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcvIQJ-QurQ
InThePipes wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:06 am
InThePipes wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:52 pm
kniven wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:10 pm


This could be the new reality. No more high school, college, sporting events, concerts, jobs, vacations, etc. this could be the new reality from here and beyond. There is no end in sight of the fear.
Turn the news off, we're going to be fine.
Bill Maher agrees

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcvIQJ-QurQ


Wow...Just, wow... The lack of understanding that "Wet Paint", "In the Pipes", and "Yoopskater" are demonstrating is, to put it mildly, extremely disturbing. First, a little background. My job ended in early March and won't start up until after early September if I'm lucky. The point being, I've had A LOT of time on my hands and, have literally read over 100 articles, reports, and scientific studies on Covid. Along with having had a cable news network on one of my televisions every day from 7am to midnight since March 10 -- to include watching Fox, CNN, MSNBC, and CNBC -- so, have seen over 100 interviews of medical/infectious disease specialists involving this virus. I also travel extensively for my job, to include occasional trips to Alaska where I connect thru Seattle each time. I first heard of Covid 19 in late January and, since the first outbreak was in the Seattle area and I had to connect in Seattle twice in February, I made it a point to be as informed as possible before I went thru there. I freely admit that I have zero training in epidemiology, infectious diseases, or pandemic mitigation strategies. That's why I've done so much reading. To become as informed as possible as a lay-person can be.

Unfortunately, between the three of you, we have a lot to cover. First, let's tackle "In the Pipes" comment regarding testing where he states, "These tests you speak of all have significant limitations and the quicker the test results are generated the more inaccuracy they generally have." Really? Please provide citation of proof of this claim as being true regarding the inaccuracy of the rapid tests in a general sense. Are there some specific tests developed by specific entities that have had this issue? Yes, but a very small amount. To all three of you may I suggest that, without doubt you are extremely uninformed about how this virus spreads and, that without the "shelter-in-place" efforts that the majority of states have been in the last 30 days, the number of infections and deaths would be FAR, FAR, FAR HIGHER... Thank God for the majority of governors heeding the advice of the scientific experts and shutting down their states as early as they did. And to think that this administration received it's first significant briefing from our intelligence community the first week of January!!! Link:

ashingtonpost.com/national-security/us-intelligence-reports-from-january-and-february-warned-about-a-likely-pandemic/2020/03/20/299d8cda-6ad5-11ea-b5f1-a5a804

Remember, the majority of the early models were predicting as many as 1.5--2.5 million deaths without any mitigation efforts. Let me say that again -- AS MANY AS 1.5 TO 2.5 MILLION DEATHS WITHOUT ANY MITIGATION EFFORTS. I'm sorry but, in reference to some of "Wet Paints" earlier comparisons, on the high end, that's still a hell of a lot more than the combined totals of smoking (480,000)/heart disease (647,000)/car accidents (37,000)/seasonal flu (27,000 -- varies between 12K & 61K annually). With the low end of 1.5 million still slightly higher than all of those other forms of death combined. AND...the VAST, VAST MAJORITY of all of the 34,000 Covid deaths we currently have, were preventable. How do I know you ask? Just look at South Korea. We each had our first confirmed case on the same date. They are currently sitting at approximately 10,700 confirmed cases and only 234 deaths! Compared to our 735,000 cases and over 39,000 deaths...That is an incredibly large difference considering we both had our first confirmed cases the same day. The reason why is simple. The moment their "CDC" understood the threat, the country's leadership took decisive action, called a meeting of their top experts in the various fields involved and, developed an accurate test that was able to be mass-produced within a week, AND...did the requisite contact tracing to significantly limit the spread of the virus. In fact, if not for a single "super spreader", they might have half as many deaths as they currently do.

The point is, the ONLY REASON we have limited both the spread of new cases and the deaths to the degree we have, as well as significantly changed the forecast models, is due to the shelter-in-place/social distancing that has been bought into by the vast majority of the population. However, as almost literally every expert on this situation is currently predicting, if we "open up" too quickly, those same models that have had to be adjusted downward so drastically the last two weeks, will shoot right back up into 100,000-200,000 dead range. Unfortunately, between the ludicrous and moronic "protests" by folks demanding that the various restrictions be removed and, the governors of certain states who apparently don't believe in science and fact-based research, the number of cases in those states and among those participating in those protests will jump significantly within the next two weeks. I also assume neither of you are aware that the latest research indicates, that regardless of whether an individual ever exhibits symptoms or not, they are at their most contagious the first 3-5 days after being infected themselves. Here's a link:

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/cor ... oms-appear

That completely changes the game in regards to limiting the spread, especially if we "open things up" at this time. Now, if we had the kind of testing and contact tracing regimen that South Korea has, we could maybe, just maybe start talking about opening back up at this time. Unfortunately, our federal government has so badly botched our testing, as well as the crisis in general, that we aren't anywhere close to being at a point that we should "open up". And to "Wet Paint" especially I say, you sure seem to be pretty cavalier with other people's lives. Let's review some of your comments... "I get what you are saying but we need to look at the odds and do what is best over all. We could open up the economy and let the young healthy people get back to work. And, sad to say, more of them will be killed in car wrecks, from heart disease and etc than will be killed by a Covid Related illness. The virus is not going to go away, it will always be there. And more and more are going to go around." Well -- and I'll qualify this by saying that IF YOU BELIEVE IN SCIENCE AND FACT-BASED ANALYSIS -- I just destroyed your attempt at trying to compare the number of people who die in the country each year from other types of fatalities to the number that may die from Covid. As it relates to heart disease and smoking (the far greatest of those other reasons for dying), whether those people die is -- for the vast majority -- completely in their control AND, outside of a somewhat large number that are attributable to second-hand smoking, their choice doesn't affect anyone else! So, if we're going to compare types of death and whether we shut the country down for one versus the other, let's try to compare apples to apples and not apples to watermelons. Jesus...

Remember, at this point, about 20% of the American workforce is out of work. So, that means 80% are working. Yes, 70+% of our economy is based on consumer spending which has certainly taken a significant hit. Still, a significant portion of the economy is still functioning. If we simply did a short-term universal basic income program for anyone who is currently out of work due to Covid or, becomes unemployed over the next 6 months to Covid (at say $2500 per month per house hold), that would actually cost a lot less than what we are currently doing to offset the financial pain people are experiencing. And, if we need to extend it another 6 months than we do that.

Next to "Wet Paint's" other gem of a statement, "The cure can not be worse than the disease. This is not by design unless you are talking about one political party wanting to keeps stuff shut off for political gain which I would believe." Really? You'd believe that eh? Ok, a little more background here... in my early 50's, was honorably discharged after serving 23 years in the military, owned my own small business for about 15 years, been married 25 years with three kids -- ranging from 13 - 21, solidly middle class, and voted for Reagan, Bush I, Perot, Bush II, wrote in Powell, McCain, then Obama, then McMullin. I'm sorry but, if you REALLY THINK this is just a bunch of Democratic governors trying to use a pandemic where 34,000 people have already died (in just over 50 days) and as many as 100,000 probably will by the time it's all said and done as a way to make our current president look bad, then you are beyond DELUSIONAL!!! I challenge you to cite me a single, credible scientist with any expertise in the fields directly associated with this crisis that will agree that now is a good point to "open up" the economy. Seriously, let's see if you can find a single scientist with the appropriate expertise. And don't send me the video of Dr. Shiva from MIT ripping on Fauci and, even worse, claiming you can effectively treat Covid with high doses of vitamin C. That guy has zero background in infectious diseases and their spread. Not credible in this situation.

Also, don't talk to me about how bad China dropped the ball. They did. In fact, I'm sure they have significantly under-reported their deaths. Lot's of circumstantial evidence that in just Wuhan alone it might be as high as 40K. So I agree, China has been a bad actor. So what? Again, our administration was being advised on how bad this could become in early January but, chose not to legitimately take it seriously until March freaking 12th!! In fact, I'll even throw out another name to listen to that works at the U of Minn. Michael Osterholm. He's one of the top guys in the world on this stuff. He's been on a couple times with Dan Berriero on KFAN and, he's got an even lengthier interview (a little over an hour long) on the Joe Rogan podcast that was very informative. Link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3URhJx0NSw

To all three of you, remember, the reason for doing shelter in place is to limit the chance for our health care system to become overwhelmed. The reality is, if we open this thing up too early and without the necessary testing and contact tracing required and we see a big spike in cases, and the health care systems get overwhelmed -- especially in the bigger metro areas like we have already seen in New York, Detroit, Chicago, and New Orleans, people will go right back to sheltering-in-place all on their own and that will do even more long-term damage to the economy than if we stayed in our current shelter-in-place situation until June or July. So seriously, for God's sake, please actually read or watch something, anything from "the other side" of the political spectrum before you come on here and say that "the cure is worse than the disease" and "sure, a few people are going to die but, that's just the price we might have to pay to save the economy"... At least make a minimal attempt at actually becoming informed about what your talking about. Remember... "it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt". :roll:

Yoopskater
Posts: 56
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Re: CoVid-19

Post by Yoopskater » Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:08 pm

The point is, you can take the ‘safety’ argument to the Nth degree, and if ultimate safety is your only consideration, how does one argue with you? Yes, it is safer to stay home, never go to a high school hockey game, never go to work, just sit home and collect welfare. If you only consider the people’s opinion who are in charge of studying disease, or treating sick folks, they are going to err on the side of extreme caution. How long would it be before these people would say it is safe to come out of your cocoon? I think you would be measuring that in years, not months. Covid has been here longer than you think, a significant number of Californians have antibodies built up... You site unemployment numbers in the 20-30% range and think that is not a concern??? If this goes on another 3 months, you will have double those numbers. The vulnerable should shelter, the rest of us get on with our lives.

grindiangrad-80
Posts: 2485
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Re: CoVid-19

Post by grindiangrad-80 » Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:11 pm

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/arti ... -effective


Sweden is trying a more open approach. It will be interesting to see how that method turns out.

Getitright
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:22 am

Re: CoVid-19

Post by Getitright » Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:16 pm

I’m with wise old man. Have you not seen all the health care people on tv. 18 hour shifts day after day. Bruises on their heads from the continued wearing of the masks. They are worn out and it’s April. Can you imagine no “stay at home”. Take that off and where are we? My daughter is a pa. She is dealing with this daily. She warns us to stay at home because this stuff is brutal. Those that compare this to the flu. They are idiots. Do you not realize there is a vaccine for the flu? You dont compare the two. Wish we had the leadership that South Korea has. Why have they been so successful? I like my job but I like my health more. Jobs will come back. That won’t matter to those who are dead.

7TIMECHAMPS
Posts: 246
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Re: CoVid-19

Post by 7TIMECHAMPS » Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:34 pm

While I understand the health risk that is posed by this virus I think that some people are taking the economic side of this way too lightly. An unemployment rate of 20% is beyond frightening. Take into account that we did it in about a month and it should really make you think. The depths of the depression topped out at 25%. 20% isn't the end of this. It could get far worse, could make the great depression look like child's play. If we don't get this economy going fairly soon we are going to come out of our shelter in place to find that we are living in a third world country. The Fed buying unlimited amounts of treasury bonds? Crazy stuff, you worry about 18 hour shifts for health workers (which is scary I admit), I worry about 24 hour shifts for money printing machines, which is essentially what we are doing. Ask Germany what that does for inflation (images of people using wheel barrels full of cash to buy a loaf of bread come to mind). Of course we all know the rest of the story in Germany. Point is that ignoring the economic and political unrest of a situation is foolish. As is assuming that we can do this for an indefinite period of time and then just fire everything up again.

What happens if we can't get this testing system in place quickly? We shelter in place until we get a vaccine? Sorry but that is not an option.

Also, pointing to South Korea is a bit premature as a solution. Sure, they are off to a good start but this strategy hasn't been proven out over a year to 18 month period like we need it to be. No guarantees that it works. We need to be thinking about what we do if we can't get this testing system in place.

One last note. Have you ever wondered how much money the US government can borrow? We may just find that out, the Washington post wrote an article about it just today. Read for yourself. And I have to laugh when somebody tries to lend credibility to their post by saying they watch a lot of cable news and read on the internet. LOL.

thefatcat
Posts: 261
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Re: CoVid-19

Post by thefatcat » Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:44 am

Two factors of how Covid-19 will affect the United States....

a) How dense the population is
b) How dense the population is

grindiangrad-80
Posts: 2485
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:00 pm

Re: CoVid-19

Post by grindiangrad-80 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:37 am

We do not live in a “one size fits all society”. While what is taking place in our large metro areas is very scary it is not the same scenario that is taking place in rural America. There are advantages to both living places and right now the people in the boondocks are able to live a little more comfortably.

I do wonder about this though. After 9/11 we were being told by the media about how fragile we are and how easily biological weapons could be used against us.

I just assumed that after almost 20 years and a few administration changes that we would at least have a few extra masks and ventilators on hand.

Hopefully the Governor in every state spends a little time on preparation for this type of event in the future. If they have the ability to lock everyone down than I would think they would have the ability to be a little more proactive and try to ensure we are better prepared next time.

Getitright
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Re: CoVid-19

Post by Getitright » Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:03 am

Some logic certainly to everyone’s input. A agree those in more rural areas most likely have a lower risk. Here’s what concerns me though. When the Florida governor cart Blanche opens beaches he points out not to congregate in large groups. Really? You think a bunch of young college kids are going to do this? Come on. Then those college kids, mostly not from Florida disperse back all over the country. Not all live in suburban areas. They go back home , wherever that is, see mom and dad as well as grandma and grandpa. They go back to work and who knows what else. They are asymptomatic. Then potentially all hell breaks loose. While school is not in session now, it was last month when I was in Florida watching thousands of kids doing what they do congregated in large masses. I know personally of a couple kids who work in nursing home facilities back here who were down there and went right back to work. No quarantine, no nothing. These are the types of things we need to be real careful with. All I’m saying.

BodyShots
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Re: CoVid-19

Post by BodyShots » Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:15 pm

Wet Paint wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:36 am

Pres Trump can't just say screw the law.
Really? LMFAO

Wise Old Man
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Re: CoVid-19

Post by Wise Old Man » Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:29 pm

Note: I started on this post yesterday afternoon but got pulled away. So, was just able to finish up. As with my previous post, it’s very long. Unfortunately, it’s a very nuanced topic. Plus, as in my previous posts, I tried to add links to some articles that support my thoughts/positions. I hope all of you give them a look as they do provide some good information. To clarify, the first half is mainly in response to “yoopskater’s” post from yesterday afternoon and, the rest in response to “7TIMESCHAMP” last night. I want to emphasize that I’m genuinely trying to respect everyone’s opinion on this but, despite the rules limiting “getting political”, in this case, it really is difficult as a large part of this is about what government is or isn’t doing. Which, in turn is almost impossible to avoid the politics involved. So, when you see me emphasize something with all caps, or other more strongly worded phrasing, I’m genuinely not trying to get personal with any of you. Finally, to “Wet Paint”, ‘yoopskater”, and “In the Pipes”, I see that not one of you have yet provided the name of any scientist or medical specialist with expertise in this situation that thinks it’s smart to “open things up” right now. I’ll continue to politely wait… :D

"Yoopskater", there isn't a single expert that's saying we will need to do shelter-in-place continuously for more than another year at most but, probably not more than 3-4 more months. You say we won't be measuring this in months but rather “in years”. Well, my definition of "in years" is a minimum of three and usually 4 or more. If you don't define it that way, then that's fine. But, when you make a statement like that, you really should define it more precisely because it's very likely we'll have an effective vaccine within 18 months or less. Here's a link to an article from Sunday in "The Guardian" regarding the latest updates on how efforts for a vaccine are progressing:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... e-have-one

Here's a couple paragraphs from the article I found interesting and hopeful:
When will we have a Covid-19 vaccine? Public-facing scientists such as the UK’s chief scientific adviser, Sir Patrick Vallance, and his US counterpart, Anthony Fauci, keep repeating that it won’t be before 12 to 18 months. But other voices – including some of those in the race to create a vaccine themselves – have suggested that it could be as early as June. Who is right?“ It really depends on what you mean by ‘having a vaccine’,” says Marian Wentworth, president and CEO of Management Sciences for Health, a Massachusetts-based global not-for-profit organisation that seeks to build resilient health systems, and a long-time observer of vaccine development. “If you mean one that can be used in a mass vaccination campaign, allowing us all to get on with our lives, then 12 to 18 months is probably right.”

But in terms of an experimental vaccine that is deemed safe and effective enough to be rolled out in a more limited way – to high-risk groups such as health workers, say – that could be ready within weeks or months, under emergency rules developed by drug regulatory agencies and the World Health Organization in the context of the recent Ebola epidemics in Africa. When the University of Oxford’s Adrian Hill told the Guardian that his group’s Covid-19 vaccine candidate could be ready by the summer, it was this kind of readiness to which he was probably referring. The group, led by Sarah Gilbert, has since stated that a vaccine shown to be effective in phase-3 clinical trials that could be manufactured in large quantities won’t be ready before the autumn even in a best-case scenario. And that scenario is “highly ambitious and subject to change”.

This is just one article from the last 10 days saying there's a chance we might be able to start mass producing one within 10-12 months. I agree, there are other experts that say that is very unlikely. Yet, there are obviously some who are experts in vaccine development saying it might actually happen. Thus, I simply disagree there's any chance we have to do strict shelter-in-place for "years"... I also disagree with your contention that unemployment will double if we continue with shelter-in-place for another 3-4 months. I spent quite a bit of time yesterday looking for any projections from a source I felt was worthy and there just isn't much projection on this out there right now. I agree that it might get as high as 35% and possibly, emphasis on possibly, as high as 40%. Is that extremely bad and horrible for our economy? Without a doubt. Still -- and this goes to a point "7TIMECHAMPS" stated in his latest response regarding inflation -- the feds seem extremely eager to spend whatever amount it takes too prevent the economy from significantly tanking for at least thru the next 12 months, the time almost every expert expects a mass-produced vaccine, to ensure the economy doesn't reach a scenario that makes any type of legitimate recovery take more than a couple of years to achieve. Does that guarantee we won't have an actual long-term recession/depression? Obviously not.

The reality is -- and that reality IS based on science and the experts who are trained in these areas -- if we don't significantly shelter-in-place for yes, potentially another 3-4 months and possibly longer, and yes, potentially damage the economy even more, we literally increase the chances of unnecessary and PREVENTABLE deaths by the thousands, perhaps even tens of thousands. As I'm quite confident you've heard numerous times, the main reason for continuing the shelter-in-place orders is to prevent the health care system from being overwhelmed. Most places around the country still don't have the necessary PPE if they see a significant surge of Covid patients. Let alone anywhere near the number of tests. They need another month or two to build up supplies to a point they could effectively handle a significant surge. Again, had this administration reacted in the manner South Korea did back in mid-January by getting a reliable, mass produced test available, doing contact tracing properly, along with using the Defense Production Act to immediately require corporations to start mass producing the ventilators and PPE and tests that we needed, we might've been able to prevent getting to the point we're now at.

As I said previously, but what you (or some others here) are not seemingly willing to genuinely consider or acknowledge, is that if we "open up" prior to having South Korea type mass testing and contact tracing capabilities, literally EVERY expert is predicting significant jumps in infections/deaths. Which WILL RESULT in an immediate re-lockdown of the entire country/economy. And THAT type of uncertainty/unpredictability could be as bad or worse for the economy in the long term than simply staying locked down for a slightly longer period of time until we truly have our act together nationally -- not just in a few states -- with testing and contact tracing. To be clear, if the scientific community is able to develop a treatment for those that develop significant symptoms which prevents 99%+ patients from getting to the point of needing to be admitted to ICU or put on a ventilator, then obviously we can immediately look at re-opening things up in a significant way. Until then, why aren't you guys willing to listen to/trust the medical and scientific experts?

You guys do realize that in areas where the virus hasn’t taken off yet, a significant number of nurses, doctors, specialists, and techs have been laid off in the last month? I have to assume all of them would prefer to be working than not. So obviously, if any of them really thought opening things back up was worth the possible worst-case outcome, don't you think there would be a number of those folks speaking out? And, most mid to smaller regional hospitals depend on elective surgeries to pay the bills. As I'm sure you're aware, those types of surgeries haven't been performed for going on a month now. So again, why isn't there a significant cry of "we need to open up" from more in the health care industry? Because they understand the science and how horrible this disease is for those that develop significant symptoms. Not to mention the fact that it's the health care workers on the front lines that have a much higher rate of infection. Which in turn is why it's so incredibly self-centered, egocentric, and demonstrating a complete lack of empathy for their fellow humans, regarding these idiots that are doing these mass protests to "open things up" and completely ignoring the shelter-in-place/social distancing guidelines and requirements. Remember, a person's right to free speech and assembly ends when their words or actions are clearly/unnecessarily jeopardizing another person's physical safety/health. And yes, the fact that these morons are drastically increasing both their own and others' chances of contracting the virus unnecessarily and, in turn, unnecessarily exposing health care workers when they are treated, should be cause for law enforcement to legally break up these demonstrations. Either that or, every person participating is required to sign a form stating that they revoke their rights to receive medical treatment for Covid based on their unwillingness to abide by the local, state, and federal social distancing guidelines...

Next, to "7TIMESCHAMP"... First, why are you laughing about the fact I've stated I've read as much as I have on the internet the last 60 days and watched as much cable news as I have? If you're laughing because that's where I'm getting my information, please -- and I'm dead serious, I want you to answer this in detail -- if not the internet or cable news, where pray tell do you recommend I go to get "better information"? Have you seen/read the daily paper of the average, mid-sized city in the last 10 years? And please also indicate which of the articles I've linked to in any of my more recent posts that can be claimed is from an untrustworthy source or, that you can definitively prove is inaccurate. Funny, those like yourself and others on the other side of this debate rarely, if ever, provide a link to a source that backs up any of the claims that are made.

You also state that, although South Korea is “off to a good start” – you’re darn right it is – it’s still “a bit premature" to hold them up as some type of positive example as they haven’t done it for 12-18 months? Interesting... I’lI ask, whose numbers and testing program would you rather have at the moment? Theirs or ours? I know what my answer is. Your darn right they're "off to a good start". Remember, they had their first confirmed case the same day as ours! As of this moment, the John's Hopkins tracker has them sitting at 10,674 confirmed cases and, only 236 deaths. You describe that as only "a good start"?1? Hmm, we're currently sitting at 759,676 confirmed cases, with 40,683 deaths. Well, if in your mind South Korea is only off to "a good start", what the hell would you call ours? 40,683 - 236. There simply aren't words to describe how badly we have failed our citizenry. It's beyond disgcraceful. Also, there isn't a choice but to get the testing system in place. IT IS THE ONLY WAY TO BE ABLE TO SAFELY REOPEN THE ECONOMY!!!!!!!

I’ll remind you I have been furloughed from my job for at least 6 months so, I am being directly affected by this. It’s definitely going to be a challenge if we have to social distance/shelter-in-place for another couple of months. Still, I will make it work and it’s not worth the completely unnecessary deaths of potentially thousands of others. You’ve made it clear in your last two posts that you believe opening up the economy is worth the degree of risk you think is out there in regards to potential extra/unnecessary deaths. Thus, my question to you is, how many preventable/unnecessary deaths are acceptable to “open up the economy”? Seriously…please provide a specific number or a range of numbers.

I will close my second novel in the last two days by responding to your question about how much can the U.S. government spend/borrow to bolster the economy while we social distance/shelter-in-place? From what I have read, there isn't a clear answer to that. Yes, the more money that gets printed, the greater risk of inflation. Still, here's a link to an article from Oct. 2018 that looks at this very question:

https://www.marketplace.org/2018/10/16/ ... -too-much/

Here's a section from the article in case the link doesn't work:

While there are economic limits to how much the U.S. government can and should borrow, what that limit is or how close it may be is tough to say. “There’s no quick and easy answer,” said Harvard economist Kenneth Rogoff. “It’s clear that the U.S. can bear a lot more debt than it has at today’s low interest rate.” Even with higher annual deficits spurred by tax cuts that will add over a trillion dollars to the debt in the next 10 years, the United States is not nearing unsustainable debt levels, said Stephanie Kelton, a professor of economics and public policy at Stony Brook University. “Some people would say the red lights are flashing, and we’re all sticking our heads in the sand and ignoring the clear and present danger,” she said. “I don’t see a clear and present danger.” Kelton said the United States, like Japan, will always be able pay its debts since it controls its own currency. It can simply create more money to pay its bills. Taken to an extreme, that strategy can lead to higher inflation. And Kelton said it matters what the government uses its borrowed money to do — whether or not the spending will make the future economy more productive.

Obviously, all of the extra spending we're currently doing is being done to help the economy. I'm not claiming this proves anything definitively in regards to your question, other than to illustrate there are economists that aren't sure just how far we can actually go without doing significant damage to the economy. Again, regardless of how many people become unemployed, if we just went to a temporary UBI program where we would pay every single adult living alone $3000 a month and, every family $2000 per adult couple, and $1000 for any other person living in the home, until we can safely send everyone out again, that would probably take care of the vast majority of poor and middle-income people in our country through the point we re-open. I know, I know...I said that would be it. But, just saw the following message on social media from a nurse in Michigan that I will leave you with for your consideration.



To those protesters of their personal freedom here is a reminder of why we are doing this: This was just posted seven minutes ago in Michigan from an exhausted nurse. She is responding to Michigan residents who want life to immediately go back to normal.
 This from a nurse on the front lines.

“I am posting, for once, about something other than my dog.
I have seen 4 patients die, 5 get intubated, 2 re-intubated, witnessed family consent to make 2 more patients DNRs, sweat my butt off during CPR, titrated so many drips to no avail, watched vent settings increase to no avail. We are exhausted and at a total loss.
All of this in two shifts in a row.
Some of you people have never done EVERYTHING you could to save someone, and watched them die anyway, and it shows.
I would have no problem if you fools worried about your "freedom" all went out and got COVID. If only you could sign a form stating that you revoke your right to have medical treatment based on your cavalier antics and refusal to abide by CDC and medical professionals' advice. If you were the only people who got infected during your escapades to protest tyranny, great. But that's sadly not how this works.
You wanna complain because the garden aisle is closed? If you knew a thing about gardening, you'd know it's too early to plant in Michigan. Your garden doesn't matter. If killing your plants would bring back my patients, I would pillage the **** out of your "essential" garden beds.
Upset because you can't go boating...in Michigan...in April...in the cold-*** water? You wanna tell my patient's daughter (who was sobbing as she said goodbye to her father over the phone) about your first-world problems?
Upset because you can't go to your cottage up north? Your cottage...your second property...used for leisure. My coworkers can't even stay in their regular homes. Most have been staying in hotels and dorms, not able to see their spouses or babies.
All of these posts, petitions online to evade "tyranny", it's all such bull****. I'm sorry you're bored and have nothing to do but ***** and moan. You wanna pick up a couple hours for me? Yeah, didn't think so. I wouldn't trust most of you with patient care, anyway. Not just because of the selfish lack of humanity your posts exude, but because most of those posts and petitions are so riddled with misspellings and grammatical errors, that it makes me question your cognitive capacity.
Shoutout to my coworkers, the real MVPs.”

Yoopskater
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:10 am

Re: CoVid-19

Post by Yoopskater » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:42 pm

Yes, Covid can and will take lives. Avg age of death in mid 80’s? If you are old or sick, shelter in place till you feel comfortable to come out based on low risk or vaccine available. If you are young and healthy (like the college student cited earlier who could have Covid and not even realize it...it’s that bad), get back to work. Take precautions, but get on with life. There is not going to be a pain free solution. We have to assume some risk in life. If not, we would outlaw cars right now. It is surprising to me how people would willingly sacrifice constitutional rights for ‘safety’ all the time. Freedom to assemble, scrap it. Freedom of privacy without undue govt oversight, scrap it. Question for you wise one, which side would you have been on in 1776?

east hockey
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Re: CoVid-19

Post by east hockey » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:49 pm

Yoopskater wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:42 pm
Yes, Covid can and will take lives. Avg age of death in mid 80’s? If you are old or sick, shelter in place till you feel comfortable to come out based on low risk or vaccine available. If you are young and healthy (like the college student cited earlier who could have Covid and not even realize it...it’s that bad), get back to work. Take precautions, but get on with life. There is not going to be a pain free solution. We have to assume some risk in life. If not, we would outlaw cars right now. It is surprising to me how people would willingly sacrifice constitutional rights for ‘safety’ all the time. Freedom to assemble, scrap it. Freedom of privacy without undue govt oversight, scrap it. Question for you wise one, which side would you have been on in 1776?
Two of the worst analogies I've seen. Ever.

Lee
Message Board arsonist since 2005
Egomaniac since 2006

Yoopskater
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:10 am

Re: CoVid-19

Post by Yoopskater » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:34 pm

The point is, how do we set policy? If we set policy to protect 100% of lives we literally cannot do anything in this life. If we wanted to protect all lives...there were 30k+ lives lost in traffic accidents last year. Well, eliminate cars. Ain’t I a genius? Solved that whole problem in one fell swoop. That is the mind set of a lot of our governors now days. Stay home, let everything else hit the skids, and while you are at it, Chaulk up every death you can to Covid, regardless if they were 90 and had lung cancer. After all, there is fed funding attached to it.

Locked