YHH AAA Rankings: June 17, 2013

Discussion of Minnesota Youth Hockey

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YouthHockeyHub
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YHH AAA Rankings: June 17, 2013

Post by YouthHockeyHub » Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:18 pm

The AAA Top 5 is now live, as is the state top 10. Huge shake up in the state 10.

http://www.youthhockeyhub.com/aaa-top-5 ... by-walser/

Enjoy,

TS

observer
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Post by observer » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:47 pm

Congrats! What's with 19 skaters on the 2000 machine? How does that even work?

Deep Breath

Post by Deep Breath » Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:29 pm

You would think it would cause parental stress. Win Winnipeg three years in a row and it probably covers a lot of the angst. Don't recall seeing any other summer team with a roster that numerically big, at least not around here.

Bluewhitefan
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Post by Bluewhitefan » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:02 am

Deep Breath wrote:You would think it would cause parental stress. Win Winnipeg three years in a row and it probably covers a lot of the angst. Don't recall seeing any other summer team with a roster that numerically big, at least not around here.
The head coach of that squad doesn't even play everyone when he's got 12 kids. I hope some of the families got a discount.

thoen
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Post by thoen » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:28 am

Bluewhite: I'm gonna disagree with you on your assessment. Some kids do play more than others; some kids are on the powerplay; some kids are on the penalty kill. But, having watched this team win in Winnipeg the last three years I can tell you that by having a big roster and rolling 4 lines is one of the main reasons this team has won north of the border; they simply wear teams out. During their 3-pete, the 00s have allowed just 8 goals in the 3rd period over 17 games, going 15-0-2. Playing against the level of competition up there, that stat is pretty remarkable and it comes from having "fresher" kids late in the game compared to other teams who have their top-end kids on the ice every other shift. And I'm not sure why you would hope that some families would get a discount; if it's not your family, why would you care?

snyper12
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Post by snyper12 » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:20 am

thoen wrote:Bluewhite: I'm gonna disagree with you on your assessment. Some kids do play more than others; some kids are on the powerplay; some kids are on the penalty kill. But, having watched this team win in Winnipeg the last three years I can tell you that by having a big roster and rolling 4 lines is one of the main reasons this team has won north of the border; they simply wear teams out. During their 3-pete, the 00s have allowed just 8 goals in the 3rd period over 17 games, going 15-0-2. Playing against the level of competition up there, that stat is pretty remarkable and it comes from having "fresher" kids late in the game compared to other teams who have their top-end kids on the ice every other shift. And I'm not sure why you would hope that some families would get a discount; if it's not your family, why would you care?
Can you look in the mirror and say when your son doesn't get as many shifts as another or sits the game out entirely to allow for the others on the bigger roster to suit up - you don't become upset?

Gryff
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Post by Gryff » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:56 am

observer wrote:Congrats! What's with 19 skaters on the 2000 machine? How does that even work?
Apparently it works unbelievably well.

Bluewhitefan
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Post by Bluewhitefan » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:19 pm

thoen wrote:And I'm not sure why you would hope that some families would get a discount; if it's not your family, why would you care?
I really don't care - it was more of a throw away line. If they want to spend their money that way, great. You probably know more about the distribution of playing time than I, since your kid is on the team, but what you claim wouldn't be consistent with the reputation of the head coach. Maybe that's changed.

Shinbone_News
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Post by Shinbone_News » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:35 pm

I'll bite on this one.

In theory, it's smart to roll four lines if the goal is to beat a good opponent that has only three lines (or even two in some of these summer tourneys).

In practice, though, these games are often closely contested and as the game goes on the bench gets shorter and shorter. So a typical coach will roll a short bench to start a game (get that first point on the board) and to finish a game (prevent defense with best two lines). So a fourth line MIGHT see some action in the second period, but probably only with a two-goal lead.

So the fresh legs idea is great in theory, and I also think a hungry fourth-line skater can be a huge difference maker in a close game (he;s trying to earn more playing time, after all). but most win-at-all-costs coaches tend not to take that "risk," even in kids summer hockey, and that's sort of a bummer for that fourth line skater and his parents. This snowballs in a tournament, when those first ten skaters play three or four games straight, and the fourth line watches. Fresh legs just sitting there for twelve periods.

If a coach makes it clear that a kid needs to "earn" his way onto the first or second line, or special teams, then he should actually give the kid a chance once in a while, and sit an underperforming line or skater to make room for him.

Then again, it's supposed to be all about practices and development, right???? :oops:

thoen
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Post by thoen » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:47 pm

Can you look in the mirror and say when your son doesn't get as many shifts as another or sits the game out entirely to allow for the others on the bigger roster to suit up - you don't become upset?[/quote]


Not sure what you mean. Dylan has been with Keith for the past 4+ years and I am not aware of another "bigger" roster. If our son isn't working hard, he knows ice time can be less than others. Dylan has enjoyed the coaches, has become a better hockey player because of it and my wife and I have made some great friends amongst the parents. Aside from that, I'm not sure why others would care what goes on with the team if they are not a part of it.

thoen
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Post by thoen » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:49 pm

Shinbone_News wrote:I'll bite on this one.

In theory, it's smart to roll four lines if the goal is to beat a good opponent that has only three lines (or even two in some of these summer tourneys).

In practice, though, these games are often closely contested and as the game goes on the bench gets shorter and shorter. So a typical coach will roll a short bench to start a game (get that first point on the board) and to finish a game (prevent defense with best two lines). So a fourth line MIGHT see some action in the second period, but probably only with a two-goal lead.

So the fresh legs idea is great in theory, and I also think a hungry fourth-line skater can be a huge difference maker in a close game (he;s trying to earn more playing time, after all). but most win-at-all-costs coaches tend not to take that "risk," even in kids summer hockey, and that's sort of a bummer for that fourth line skater and his parents. This snowballs in a tournament, when those first ten skaters play three or four games straight, and the fourth line watches. Fresh legs just sitting there for twelve periods.

If a coach makes it clear that a kid needs to "earn" his way onto the first or second line, or special teams, then he should actually give the kid a chance once in a while, and sit an underperforming line or skater to make room for him.

Then again, it's supposed to be all about practices and development, right???? :oops:

You obviously have not been watching the 00 Machine team.....

Shinbone_News
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Post by Shinbone_News » Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:12 pm

thoen wrote:
Shinbone_News wrote:I'll bite on this one.

In theory, it's smart to roll four lines if the goal is to beat a good opponent that has only three lines (or even two in some of these summer tourneys).

In practice, though, these games are often closely contested and as the game goes on the bench gets shorter and shorter. So a typical coach will roll a short bench to start a game (get that first point on the board) and to finish a game (prevent defense with best two lines). So a fourth line MIGHT see some action in the second period, but probably only with a two-goal lead.

So the fresh legs idea is great in theory, and I also think a hungry fourth-line skater can be a huge difference maker in a close game (he;s trying to earn more playing time, after all). but most win-at-all-costs coaches tend not to take that "risk," even in kids summer hockey, and that's sort of a bummer for that fourth line skater and his parents. This snowballs in a tournament, when those first ten skaters play three or four games straight, and the fourth line watches. Fresh legs just sitting there for twelve periods.

If a coach makes it clear that a kid needs to "earn" his way onto the first or second line, or special teams, then he should actually give the kid a chance once in a while, and sit an underperforming line or skater to make room for him.

Then again, it's supposed to be all about practices and development, right???? :oops:

You obviously have not been watching the 00 Machine team.....
I do watch them -- whenever I can. Great team, great players, great coaching. Never really noticed how they roll the lines though from one game to the next. How do they?

snyper12
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Post by snyper12 » Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:20 pm

thoen wrote:Can you look in the mirror and say when your son doesn't get as many shifts as another or sits the game out entirely to allow for the others on the bigger roster to suit up - you don't become upset?

Not sure what you mean. Dylan has been with Keith for the past 4+ years and I am not aware of another "bigger" roster. If our son isn't working hard, he knows ice time can be less than others. Dylan has enjoyed the coaches, has become a better hockey player because of it and my wife and I have made some great friends amongst the parents. Aside from that, I'm not sure why others would care what goes on with the team if they are not a part of it.[/quote]


Your dodging the question. 2-3 other kids sit out each game as only so many can sit/fit on the bench/game roster. The question again is what was your attitude when it was your sons rotation not to play in a particular game entirely?

thoen
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Post by thoen » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:33 pm

Your dodging the question. 2-3 other kids sit out each game as only so many can sit/fit on the bench/game roster. The question again is what was your attitude when it was your sons rotation not to play in a particular game entirely?[/quote]

Before this season started, it was made clear that a couple of players were told that they would "not travel" and would play local events. 19 skaters and a goalie went to Winnipeg this past weekend and 19 skaters and a goalie dressed and played each game. Once again, if your son does not play on the team and your family is not affected by it, I don't understand why it concerns you so much.

old goalie85
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Post by old goalie85 » Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:30 pm

Because it is a youth hockey forum. :idea:

snyper12
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Post by snyper12 » Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:40 pm

thoen wrote:Your dodging the question. 2-3 other kids sit out each game as only so many can sit/fit on the bench/game roster. The question again is what was your attitude when it was your sons rotation not to play in a particular game entirely?
Before this season started, it was made clear that a couple of players were told that they would "not travel" and would play local events. 19 skaters and a goalie went to Winnipeg this past weekend and 19 skaters and a goalie dressed and played each game. Once again, if your son does not play on the team and your family is not affected by it, I don't understand why it concerns you so much.[/quote]

You followed the first few posts and disagreed with their assessments. Now you wont answer a question which is answer enough for us - u were "stressed" but u dont want to go on record and say so. All is not all peaches as the original posters assessed which i suspect leads some of the rest of us to question your glorious tales.
Last edited by snyper12 on Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.

thoen
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Post by thoen » Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:59 pm

Snyper, what I am confused about is that you posted that 2-3 kids have to sit each game. Which kids, exactly, are you referring too? And you also posted a question asking about kids sitting so others on the "bigger roster can suit up". What is the bigger roster you are referring to?

snyper12
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Post by snyper12 » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:23 pm

thoen wrote:Snyper, what I am confused about is that you posted that 2-3 kids have to sit each game. Which kids, exactly, are you referring too? And you also posted a question asking about kids sitting so others on the "bigger roster can suit up". What is the bigger roster you are referring to?[

Was there a rotation of sitters for stars tournament or were all those kids not on the bench and in the stands injured? My impression was maybe 1 injury in the group and the rest watchers. It was very sad to see. Above posters question the 19 and the shortened game bench i have not. Bigger means we all know it is really not 19 but more likely over 22 and some say even bigger. To each his own - no big deal - different strokes. I added to the forum asking u a question. Lol.

snyper12
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Post by snyper12 » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:26 pm

thoen wrote:Your dodging the question. 2-3 other kids sit out each game as only so many can sit/fit on the bench/game roster. The question again is what was your attitude when it was your sons rotation not to play in a particular game entirely?
Before this season started, it was made clear that a couple of players were told that they would "not travel" and would play local events. 19 skaters and a goalie went to Winnipeg this past weekend and 19 skaters and a goalie dressed and played each game. Once again, if your son does not play on the team and your family is not affected by it, I don't understand why it concerns you so much.[/quote]

You followed the first few posts and disagreed with their assessments. Now you wont answer a question which is answer enough for us - u were "stressed" but u dont want to go on record and say so. All is not all peaches as the original posters assessed which i suspect leads some of the rest of us to disagree with your glorious tale.

Mnhockeys
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Post by Mnhockeys » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:40 pm

Shinbone_News wrote:I'll bite on this one.

In theory, it's smart to roll four lines if the goal is to beat a good opponent that has only three lines (or even two in some of these summer tourneys).

In practice, though, these games are often closely contested and as the game goes on the bench gets shorter and shorter. So a typical coach will roll a short bench to start a game (get that first point on the board) and to finish a game (prevent defense with best two lines). So a fourth line MIGHT see some action in the second period, but probably only with a two-goal lead.

So the fresh legs idea is great in theory, and I also think a hungry fourth-line skater can be a huge difference maker in a close game (he;s trying to earn more playing time, after all). but most win-at-all-costs coaches tend not to take that "risk," even in kids summer hockey, and that's sort of a bummer for that fourth line skater and his parents. This snowballs in a tournament, when those first ten skaters play three or four games straight, and the fourth line watches. Fresh legs just sitting there for twelve periods.

If a coach makes it clear that a kid needs to "earn" his way onto the first or second line, or special teams, then he should actually give the kid a chance once in a while, and sit an underperforming line or skater to make room for him.

Then again, it's supposed to be all about practices and development, right???? :oops:
My observation about shortening bench is that summer AAA teams are doing it more than the association hockey teams. From some good teams, to some really "bad" teams, shortening the bench seems to be in every team play books.

Is it because most associations would do an end-year evaluation about the coaches, and AAA coaches give no rat- ass about what some of the parents feel?

BenDangle
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Post by BenDangle » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:06 am

I find it funny that a great team like this one has to come on here and try to save face. The facts are the facts. They've won a ton of games, ton of tournaments and had a ton of overall success.

That being said, the reality is many on this team can't stand each other...parents, players, etc. That being said, like a lot of great pro teams...none of them like each other. It's a can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em situation.

From what I understand, the guy on here posing as an Orange parent is the one who complains the most when his golden child has to sit. But on this forum he comes on here and makes claims that are just not true.

That's what has a few so riled up.

Machine Orange 2000= Great team
Machine Orange 2000= Far from perfect approach, so just admit it and move on

But can they admit it?

Doubtful.

barry_mcconnell
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Post by barry_mcconnell » Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:34 am

If your kid is one of those 2000 Orange players that doesn't get to play every game there is a pretty good chance he could go to any other team in town and be on the 1st line, power play, and penalty kill.

It's a choice you make. You can train with some of the best skaters and coaches in the country and fight for your ice time. Or you can go to a lesser program and be a superstar and skate 30min a game.

Every kid responds differently to different types of coaching. To each his own.

I'll bet that if any one of those 19 boys dropped out and they needed a replacement, there would be 50 kids lined up to take his spot.

hipcheck62
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Post by hipcheck62 » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:05 pm

I have heard the 2002 Blades do the same thing. They supposedly have more than 20? kids in their program and rotate them through. I have no knowledge of how costs are divided up, if at all, but even if you don't get to play in a tournament your kid is going to get better practicing against that competition all summer. I don't see what the big deal is here. You have to know the situation by now and still sign up for it.

From a coaching standpoint it is almost easier to have practice with 25 kids than 15 so it makes sense to run a team this way. Keep the marginal kids in the system as they may develop into a regular in a year or two.

scoreandscoreoften
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Post by scoreandscoreoften » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:33 pm

all this big roster stuff started with practice players. Players that have no chance of getting any playing time. It's a way to give the coach additional money. A big advantage on getting highly qualified non parent coaches. The total cost of the program is divided by 17 players, with what they charge practice players going to the coach, especially if they're non parent coaches. We all know if you have a kid on the team, you get a huge discount or a total discount but, also might get money from practice players, depending on the program. It has now morphed into adding quality practice players that have the skill and potential to earn playing time on said team. This allows them to roster 20 players for a big long tournament if need be. If you know going into this, and are ok with it, I see no problems with teams doing it. Might it cause more problems? You bet, but there's always next year.

Shinbone_News
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Post by Shinbone_News » Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:58 pm

Practice players usually pay less, since they're not ponying up for tournament entry fees. At least that's the rationale I've heard in the past, and some parents appreciate the savings while getting the same practice time. (The kids generally wish they could play in a game or two, naturally.)

Practice players are a big help if the team regularly has solo, full-ice practices and wants to work on, for example, 5X5 game scenarios -- especially when a handful of regs might be out fishing or playing baseball.

Practice players save their parents about $800 per elite, out-of-town tournament in Winnipeg or Chicago. (When you factor in gas or airline ticket, food, hotel)

Just saying, it's not necessarily ONLY a money grab, and practice players benefit from the same development as the rest of the team, minus the games of course, and a little less time commitment.

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