Is your son an elite player?

Discussion of Minnesota Youth Hockey

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MrBoDangles
Posts: 4084
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:32 pm

Post by MrBoDangles » Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:37 pm

Trash Hauler wrote:
MrBoDangles wrote:We have friends, that have a daughter, that has gymnastic practices that total over 30 hrs a week. Do they believe that she'll amount to much in gymnastics? No, but the girl is doing what she loves and that's what should be important, if they're able.

A good percentage of the kids that play Hockey dream about playing at the college or profesional level. Would any of the greats, been great, if they had parents that told them it wasn't possible?

Tony, Very interesting article, I would like to see more like it.. I think you read me wrong with your response.. I was seriously interested in your opinion on the advancement of kids in the final years of elite (Summer) AAA. Make it, size restraints, burnout, %...?
Gymnastics isn't the best example as the age of serious competition is much different than most competitive sports. Shawn Johnson just announced her retirement at age 20.
Would you get the point if I said she's not very good and the parents know it....?

Trash Hauler
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:03 pm

Post by Trash Hauler » Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:14 pm

MrBoDangles wrote:
Trash Hauler wrote:
MrBoDangles wrote:We have friends, that have a daughter, that has gymnastic practices that total over 30 hrs a week. Do they believe that she'll amount to much in gymnastics? No, but the girl is doing what she loves and that's what should be important, if they're able.

A good percentage of the kids that play Hockey dream about playing at the college or profesional level. Would any of the greats, been great, if they had parents that told them it wasn't possible?

Tony, Very interesting article, I would like to see more like it.. I think you read me wrong with your response.. I was seriously interested in your opinion on the advancement of kids in the final years of elite (Summer) AAA. Make it, size restraints, burnout, %...?
Gymnastics isn't the best example as the age of serious competition is much different than most competitive sports. Shawn Johnson just announced her retirement at age 20.
Would you get the point if I said she's not very good and the parents know it....?
Then shes really not relevent to this thread and you either have your head buried in the sand, or are just a contrarian.

MNM JMH
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:17 pm

Post by MNM JMH » Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:17 pm

Trash Hauler has it right. Not relevant to this thread. You r . :cry: :cry: :cry: :lol:

Trash Hauler
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:03 pm

Post by Trash Hauler » Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:24 pm

MrBoDangles wrote:
Trash Hauler wrote:
SnowedIn wrote:
Trash Hauler wrote: I love coaching hockey and teaching young adults more than anything. It's been my lifes passion for many years now. At the end of each season I'm a bit burnt out, and need a break. Should I look for another passion that doesn't burn me out when I give it everything I've got or should I find more summer opportunities to do what I love? I know if I did I would not come back in the fall with the passion the job deserves. Maybe that's just me.
Maybe it is you. I don't know you. I do get where you are coming from. I also know I played hockey growing up and I never got enough of playing hockey. If we weren't on the ice we were out in the streets or school parking lots playing ball hockey. Kids are not adults. Kids like to play games - all kinds of games, indoors/outdoors/whatever. They never get sick of playing every day. So if part of their day in the summer, between sleeping in, riding their bike, swiming, hanging with buds and girlies, playing baseball, is an hour of ice every 2 or 3 days, how does that burn them out?? I guess if they don't like it or want to play hockey it would burn them out. Its just another way to kill time playing and getting better at a game.
The games you talk about playing were probably played in an unstructured, unsupervised fashion. Did you coach show up for the street hockey match after school? Were your parents pasted against the glass or drinking coffee at the end of the driveway? There's a big difference between kids playing, and players training. Too much training and not enough playing. And i don't mean more games in the season and summer. I mean playing, like you did.
Do you have to drag your kid to practice kicking and screaming? I/They have to drag my kid off the ice at the end of practice/training.

I'd pull my kid in a heartbeat if he wasn't having a blast at practice.
Based on your previous posts I find it hard to believe he can have a blast with no Tier 1 hockey in Minnesota. You constantly advocate for a different system to allow the "elite" players to have better opportunities and then say it's all about fun and doing what the kid wants to do. I don't believe for one second you would pull him in a minute, and certainly not in a hearbeat. In fact, I would put odds on him subconcously knowing how much it would disappoint you if he let on that some days he's had enough. That will come when your approval means less to him than asserting his independence.

icehornet
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:54 pm

Post by icehornet » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:42 am

Trash Hauler wrote:The problem is many never consider or are aware of the end effect.
What exactly is this "end effect" you seem to imply a large percentage of parents drive their kids to? I guess I just don't see the same issue as long as the kids are having fun. If the kid is being forced on the ice or forced to get in the car to go to practice it's done. But IMO the kid that loves getting on the ice, playing in the yard, etc should be given every opportunity to succeed at a high level. Some are just going to do it for fun, some will take it more seriously and set higher goals, and yes some parents are going to make it the be all end all, but I think those are fewer than what it seems you are implying.

MrBoDangles
Posts: 4084
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:32 pm

Post by MrBoDangles » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:47 am

Trash Hauler wrote:
MrBoDangles wrote:
Trash Hauler wrote:
SnowedIn wrote:
Trash Hauler wrote: I love coaching hockey and teaching young adults more than anything. It's been my lifes passion for many years now. At the end of each season I'm a bit burnt out, and need a break. Should I look for another passion that doesn't burn me out when I give it everything I've got or should I find more summer opportunities to do what I love? I know if I did I would not come back in the fall with the passion the job deserves. Maybe that's just me.
Maybe it is you. I don't know you. I do get where you are coming from. I also know I played hockey growing up and I never got enough of playing hockey. If we weren't on the ice we were out in the streets or school parking lots playing ball hockey. Kids are not adults. Kids like to play games - all kinds of games, indoors/outdoors/whatever. They never get sick of playing every day. So if part of their day in the summer, between sleeping in, riding their bike, swiming, hanging with buds and girlies, playing baseball, is an hour of ice every 2 or 3 days, how does that burn them out?? I guess if they don't like it or want to play hockey it would burn them out. Its just another way to kill time playing and getting better at a game.
The games you talk about playing were probably played in an unstructured, unsupervised fashion. Did you coach show up for the street hockey match after school? Were your parents pasted against the glass or drinking coffee at the end of the driveway? There's a big difference between kids playing, and players training. Too much training and not enough playing. And i don't mean more games in the season and summer. I mean playing, like you did.
Do you have to drag your kid to practice kicking and screaming? I/They have to drag my kid off the ice at the end of practice/training.

I'd pull my kid in a heartbeat if he wasn't having a blast at practice.
Based on your previous posts I find it hard to believe he can have a blast with no Tier 1 hockey in Minnesota. You constantly advocate for a different system to allow the "elite" players to have better opportunities and then say it's all about fun and doing what the kid wants to do. I don't believe for one second you would pull him in a minute, and certainly not in a hearbeat. In fact, I would put odds on him subconcously knowing how much it would disappoint you if he let on that some days he's had enough. That will come when your approval means less to him than asserting his independence.
You make practice/training sound like a terrible thing. Some kids actually have fun at practice. :idea:

I'm all about options for kids from third world associations. Not sure why a kid from a mega association would need tier 1..

MrBoDangles
Posts: 4084
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:32 pm

Post by MrBoDangles » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:59 am

Trash Hauler wrote:
MrBoDangles wrote:
Trash Hauler wrote:
MrBoDangles wrote:We have friends, that have a daughter, that has gymnastic practices that total over 30 hrs a week. Do they believe that she'll amount to much in gymnastics? No, but the girl is doing what she loves and that's what should be important, if they're able.

A good percentage of the kids that play Hockey dream about playing at the college or profesional level. Would any of the greats, been great, if they had parents that told them it wasn't possible?

Tony, Very interesting article, I would like to see more like it.. I think you read me wrong with your response.. I was seriously interested in your opinion on the advancement of kids in the final years of elite (Summer) AAA. Make it, size restraints, burnout, %...?
Gymnastics isn't the best example as the age of serious competition is much different than most competitive sports. Shawn Johnson just announced her retirement at age 20.
Would you get the point if I said she's not very good and the parents know it....?
Then shes really not relevent to this thread and you either have your head buried in the sand, or are just a contrarian.
The parents spend plenty of "money" and she practices "many hours". The point is that the parents are letting her do what she loves. She's obviosly not burnt out at 17 because she's loving what she's doing. And the parents are happy as long as she is happy, even though they've known forever that she has NO future in the sport.

Try reading through the first page to follow along.
](*,)

BadgerBob82
Posts: 658
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:49 am

Post by BadgerBob82 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:40 am

Bo: I like your gymnastics analogy. Your point being that the parents are spending money and time for the kid on gymnastics even though they understand she may not perform at a high level. But she has fun, so they spend the time and money freely.

Are you spending the time and money on your kids because they love hockey and can't get enough if it? Or that you think they have a future beyond high school hockey?

hipcheck62
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:11 am

Post by hipcheck62 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:03 am

A year ago I had my son on two different summer teams and we went to 7 different tournaments from April through August. He has played soccer since he could walk but he LOVES hockey and I was willing to pay so that he could play as much as possible. He tried lacrosse last spring and as of right now it is coming close to hockey as his favorite sport. We are on only one spring team and the garage time he use to spend shooting pucks is now spent in the back yard playing lacrosse.

My point is that even though your kid loves a sport and it is OK to keep him in it all the time if they are having fun, don't be afraid to try something else as they might find something else they LOVE. Kids under 12 have short attention spans and can enjoy many different things, not just sports, easily.

I am playing the percentages that he will not play any sport past high school even though he is a pretty good athlete. He is not "special" and really don't feel that not focusing 100% (or 75%) is going to hinder his development anyway.

There is no correct answer to this as all kids are different. Just keep an open mind and make sure your child does not hate you for what you made, or let, them do as a kid. Your relationship with them as an adult is much more important than you might think.

Trash Hauler
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:03 pm

Post by Trash Hauler » Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:43 am

MrBoDangles wrote:
Trash Hauler wrote:
MrBoDangles wrote:
Trash Hauler wrote:
SnowedIn wrote:
Trash Hauler wrote: I love coaching hockey and teaching young adults more than anything. It's been my lifes passion for many years now. At the end of each season I'm a bit burnt out, and need a break. Should I look for another passion that doesn't burn me out when I give it everything I've got or should I find more summer opportunities to do what I love? I know if I did I would not come back in the fall with the passion the job deserves. Maybe that's just me.
Maybe it is you. I don't know you. I do get where you are coming from. I also know I played hockey growing up and I never got enough of playing hockey. If we weren't on the ice we were out in the streets or school parking lots playing ball hockey. Kids are not adults. Kids like to play games - all kinds of games, indoors/outdoors/whatever. They never get sick of playing every day. So if part of their day in the summer, between sleeping in, riding their bike, swiming, hanging with buds and girlies, playing baseball, is an hour of ice every 2 or 3 days, how does that burn them out?? I guess if they don't like it or want to play hockey it would burn them out. Its just another way to kill time playing and getting better at a game.
The games you talk about playing were probably played in an unstructured, unsupervised fashion. Did you coach show up for the street hockey match after school? Were your parents pasted against the glass or drinking coffee at the end of the driveway? There's a big difference between kids playing, and players training. Too much training and not enough playing. And i don't mean more games in the season and summer. I mean playing, like you did.
Do you have to drag your kid to practice kicking and screaming? I/They have to drag my kid off the ice at the end of practice/training.

I'd pull my kid in a heartbeat if he wasn't having a blast at practice.
Based on your previous posts I find it hard to believe he can have a blast with no Tier 1 hockey in Minnesota. You constantly advocate for a different system to allow the "elite" players to have better opportunities and then say it's all about fun and doing what the kid wants to do. I don't believe for one second you would pull him in a minute, and certainly not in a hearbeat. In fact, I would put odds on him subconcously knowing how much it would disappoint you if he let on that some days he's had enough. That will come when your approval means less to him than asserting his independence.
You make practice/training sound like a terrible thing. Some kids actually have fun at practice. :idea:

I'm all about options for kids from third world associations. Not sure why a kid from a mega association would need tier 1..
No, practice is not a bad thing. The title of this tread is "Is your son and elite player?" As always, the poster used it to grab attention, maybe to get a few clicks on his web site, and it works.

The kids innocently go out and have fun. For many, many parents it soon becomes all about what team they make, yes at 8 years old, and what team someone else made. Is my kid keeping up, or falling behind? Oh he loves it so I get him on the ice every chance I get. Yes, he loves it, but to be so naive to say that the parents are doing it because he loves it is ignorant. For most, yes MOST, parents, it becomes about how far can my kid get. They may not dream of Division 1 or the NHL, but to some degree it hits almost everyone. Will he make the "A" team? Is he good enough to make the Blades? The Machine? Will he play Varsity one day? At an early age it becomes all about these things and whether it's a topic of conversation at your dinner table or on the ride home, or you simply grind away keeping it to youself, either way, your kid will begin to know what it's really all about as he grows and matures.

I changed my mind on the gymnast. She's a perfect example for this thread. No one has probably thrown the word "elite" at her or her parents. She is not very talented. Sometimes the kids that enjoy their "career" the most are the ones with no talent or very little. Her parents are probably not bickering over what the meaning of "elite" is. Their daughter probably does not feel she has disappointed everyone who cares about her when she receives a low score. Kids want 1 thing at young ages. They want their parents to love them and be proud. The current infatuation with "elite" players as young as mites, makes that very, very hard.

LET'S BE HONEST! For many, many parents, it becomes all about keeping up, and saving face, to one degree or another. There is a time and place for this, but 2000 born, 11 year old kids is not the time, and most won't last with passion to when it does matter. Disappointed dad shrinks into the corner of the rink, and his son doesn't have much to say to him anymore. He's with his friends most of the time. Now that he's older, when weight training would be most beneficial, he's just not that interested. Summer comes and he's got other plans than to stay on the treadmill. How do you keep this from happening? Yes, you actually tell him no, when he wants to play on two "AAA teams", among other things. I believe you can't give a kid passion, but you can easily take it away without knowing that you are.

You suggest, at my urging, that it's probably just me that feels burned out after a long, grinding season and I need some time away. What it really means to me is that at my age, I'm able to recognize it. An 8 year old is not, an 11 year old is getting closer, a 14 year old will let you know with a bad attitude, and a 16 year old will let you know by not playing any longer. The shameful part is that the parents, that should recognize this, simply take advantage of it for their own benefit.

Check out the chatter, which Bo is typically very involved in, on other threads that are referring to '03 teams, and tell me I'm wrong. It's not the kids vying for blog superiority is it?

icehornet
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:54 pm

Post by icehornet » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:14 am

TH, you seem to know every symptom in the book when it comes to these overindulging, self-serving parents. What I have yet to hear is a solution. What should parents be doing? If not driving their kid to the rink or going to games/tournaments as a family what other experiences should be created? If the kid loves to watch TV or play video games should that be the weekend activities? They want to be loved right?

Of course parents are going to want their kid to make the best teams and go as far as possible, in any sport. Part of that is pride, part of it is being proud of your kids, and part of it is innate competition. Does that drive some parents to get extra ice time or spend money for additional training opportunities, sure. Does it drive some parents off the deep end where they are yelling and belittling little Johnny in front of everyone....yes that happens too. But you can still be a damn good parent and make sure your kid knows you love them regardless of whether they make the A team or not. Life is going to deal our kids many disappointments and if they can learn from a good example how to deal with that they will be much better off in the long run. Can a parent be disappointed in not making the highest level team? I think so as long as the kid knows the parent is not disappointed in them as a person and that they are loved no matter what happens on the ice. The kid has to have the intrinsic drive and disappointment can easily be turned into motivation if used correctly (not forced.)

The truth of the matter is that when kids are getting drafted into the top league in the world at such a young age there is going to be pressure to identify "elite" talent very early. From the NHL to college to high school to mite teams, kids are getting tracked into a specific groups at a very early age, whether we like it or not. Do some kids cross lines at different ages, sure, but most are predominantly tracked. Maybe I'm being naive but I still believe in being able to have a kid be extremely successful and even "elite" while still providing the childhood memories they will look back on with a smile. I also believe a similar kid who isn't as successful can still spend the same amount of time in a sport and have a similar great experience. One of the best things these kids will hopefully be able to look back and say is "look how much time our family spent together." Afterall, spending time together is one of the best things you can do with your kids. Unfortunately, that is something that is getting more and more rare in today's world.

SnowedIn
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2010 6:56 am

Post by SnowedIn » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:30 am

Trash Hauler wrote: No, practice is not a bad thing. The title of this tread is "Is your son and elite player?" As always, the poster used it to grab attention, maybe to get a few clicks on his web site, and it works.

The kids innocently go out and have fun. For many, many parents it soon becomes all about what team they make, yes at 8 years old, and what team someone else made. Is my kid keeping up, or falling behind? Oh he loves it so I get him on the ice every chance I get. Yes, he loves it, but to be so naive to say that the parents are doing it because he loves it is ignorant. For most, yes MOST, parents, it becomes about how far can my kid get. They may not dream of Division 1 or the NHL, but to some degree it hits almost everyone. Will he make the "A" team? Is he good enough to make the Blades? The Machine? Will he play Varsity one day? At an early age it becomes all about these things and whether it's a topic of conversation at your dinner table or on the ride home, or you simply grind away keeping it to youself, either way, your kid will begin to know what it's really all about as he grows and matures.

I changed my mind on the gymnast. She's a perfect example for this thread. No one has probably thrown the word "elite" at her or her parents. She is not very talented. Sometimes the kids that enjoy their "career" the most are the ones with no talent or very little. Her parents are probably not bickering over what the meaning of "elite" is. Their daughter probably does not feel she has disappointed everyone who cares about her when she receives a low score. Kids want 1 thing at young ages. They want their parents to love them and be proud. The current infatuation with "elite" players as young as mites, makes that very, very hard.

LET'S BE HONEST! For many, many parents, it becomes all about keeping up, and saving face, to one degree or another. There is a time and place for this, but 2000 born, 11 year old kids is not the time, and most won't last with passion to when it does matter. Disappointed dad shrinks into the corner of the rink, and his son doesn't have much to say to him anymore. He's with his friends most of the time. Now that he's older, when weight training would be most beneficial, he's just not that interested. Summer comes and he's got other plans than to stay on the treadmill. How do you keep this from happening? Yes, you actually tell him no, when he wants to play on two "AAA teams", among other things. I believe you can't give a kid passion, but you can easily take it away without knowing that you are.

You suggest, at my urging, that it's probably just me that feels burned out after a long, grinding season and I need some time away. What it really means to me is that at my age, I'm able to recognize it. An 8 year old is not, an 11 year old is getting closer, a 14 year old will let you know with a bad attitude, and a 16 year old will let you know by not playing any longer. The shameful part is that the parents, that should recognize this, simply take advantage of it for their own benefit.

Check out the chatter, which Bo is typically very involved in, on other threads that are referring to '03 teams, and tell me I'm wrong. It's not the kids vying for blog superiority is it?
Trash you make a lot of good points and I would not disagree that the scenario you describe accurately depicts a category of kids/parents but you seem to be casting this scenario across all or most kids/parents and that is just not the case. And as for vying for blog superiority, without counting, you have to be near or at the top of the post count on this thread pretty much trying to forcing your generic scenario on anyone that has an alternative opinion. While you can try to cast blankets over this topic, fact is that the relationships between kids and their parents, glass half full or half empty weighting, and mentality of kids and parents does differ from household to household. The reality is that there are a bunch of different sizes and shapes of blankets that cover this scenario.

This is nuts!
Posts: 168
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:05 pm

Post by This is nuts! » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:47 am

I thought I had a good beat on this thread. Now I m very confused. Should my little Johnny superstar choose to play hockey more, or less . Play several other sports, or just play a couple sports. Should he only play the sport that is in season, or specialize in a sport. Should he play summer hockey or just play unstructured pick up games in the street or yard.

Should he decide what he wants to do or should I decide for him because I know best? Should I make him play Lacrosse because he may end up loving it, even if he hasn't shown interest in playing it. Should I let him sit on the Ipad/Xbox/playstation/WII/watch TV for hours and hours a week, or should I make him playing hockey in the summer for 3-4 hours per week wether he likes it or not because its better then playing video games.

According to some, maybe its better to just having quit playing hockey right now wether he loves it or not because he is just going to want to quit by age 14-16 anyway.

](*,) Extremely confused :(

Trash Hauler
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:03 pm

Post by Trash Hauler » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:54 am

SnowedIn wrote:
Trash Hauler wrote: No, practice is not a bad thing. The title of this tread is "Is your son and elite player?" As always, the poster used it to grab attention, maybe to get a few clicks on his web site, and it works.

The kids innocently go out and have fun. For many, many parents it soon becomes all about what team they make, yes at 8 years old, and what team someone else made. Is my kid keeping up, or falling behind? Oh he loves it so I get him on the ice every chance I get. Yes, he loves it, but to be so naive to say that the parents are doing it because he loves it is ignorant. For most, yes MOST, parents, it becomes about how far can my kid get. They may not dream of Division 1 or the NHL, but to some degree it hits almost everyone. Will he make the "A" team? Is he good enough to make the Blades? The Machine? Will he play Varsity one day? At an early age it becomes all about these things and whether it's a topic of conversation at your dinner table or on the ride home, or you simply grind away keeping it to youself, either way, your kid will begin to know what it's really all about as he grows and matures.

I changed my mind on the gymnast. She's a perfect example for this thread. No one has probably thrown the word "elite" at her or her parents. She is not very talented. Sometimes the kids that enjoy their "career" the most are the ones with no talent or very little. Her parents are probably not bickering over what the meaning of "elite" is. Their daughter probably does not feel she has disappointed everyone who cares about her when she receives a low score. Kids want 1 thing at young ages. They want their parents to love them and be proud. The current infatuation with "elite" players as young as mites, makes that very, very hard.

LET'S BE HONEST! For many, many parents, it becomes all about keeping up, and saving face, to one degree or another. There is a time and place for this, but 2000 born, 11 year old kids is not the time, and most won't last with passion to when it does matter. Disappointed dad shrinks into the corner of the rink, and his son doesn't have much to say to him anymore. He's with his friends most of the time. Now that he's older, when weight training would be most beneficial, he's just not that interested. Summer comes and he's got other plans than to stay on the treadmill. How do you keep this from happening? Yes, you actually tell him no, when he wants to play on two "AAA teams", among other things. I believe you can't give a kid passion, but you can easily take it away without knowing that you are.

You suggest, at my urging, that it's probably just me that feels burned out after a long, grinding season and I need some time away. What it really means to me is that at my age, I'm able to recognize it. An 8 year old is not, an 11 year old is getting closer, a 14 year old will let you know with a bad attitude, and a 16 year old will let you know by not playing any longer. The shameful part is that the parents, that should recognize this, simply take advantage of it for their own benefit.

Check out the chatter, which Bo is typically very involved in, on other threads that are referring to '03 teams, and tell me I'm wrong. It's not the kids vying for blog superiority is it?
Trash you make a lot of good points and I would not disagree that the scenario you describe accurately depicts a category of kids/parents but you seem to be casting this scenario across all or most kids/parents and that is just not the case. And as for vying for blog superiority, without counting, you have to be near or at the top of the post count on this thread pretty much trying to forcing your generic scenario on anyone that has an alternative opinion. While you can try to cast blankets over this topic, fact is that the relationships between kids and their parents, glass half full or half empty weighting, and mentality of kids and parents does differ from household to household. The reality is that there are a bunch of different sizes and shapes of blankets that cover this scenario.
My post count may be growing, but not a single post boasting about or defending my favorite summer team, or winter team for that matter.

I completely agree that the blankets are all different sizes, and each household is different. I will however continue to believe that it is much, much more common than people will admit. As I mentioned earlier, in working with young adults, that are beginning to be able to communicate and speak their mind, it's very, very clear to me that it's more common than not. Do you know many parents that admit they are in this situation? Do they even know it? Virtually all of them deny it, including the ones arguing about which '03 summer team is superior and which '03 child is "elite". For this reason, I will continue my personal campaign to expose the effects of how parents egos affect their little superstar to be. I will continue to promote age appropriate development and training. Many say it's none of anyone's business what they do in their house. As educators, it is our business to partner with parents and help educate them so they can make informed decisions. Ultimately, they will certainly make most of the decisions. But at least they do it hearing all sides. If a young child is labeled "gifted and talented" in school, there is a host of education available for the parents on the struggles and difficulties of raising a gifted child. It's not all roses. In fact, if it's all about excelling at a young age, they often fall behind and do not reach their potential. Isn't that what we are looking for in the end? Kids reaching their potential? Parents of gifted learners, or gifted athletes would be wise to seek out alternatives that allow their child to grow, and excel at the right times and in the right doses. I believe it was the movie Parenthood where Rick Moranis had a gifted daughter and he was hell bent on making the most of it. Just a fictional movie, but paints a pretty accurate picture. Now we label 100's of very young hockey players as gifted or elite and put them on a path of excellence. Be very careful.

Mite-dad
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Post by Mite-dad » Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:23 am

I gotta agree with trash hauler. Yeah, he's throwing blankets, but parents have absolutely no idea if their kid falls under that blanket or not. How do you know if your present highly motivated Johnny will remain that way until he is 18? There is risk there for sure. Apparently, many parents are willing to take that risk and many will no doubt be disappointed with their child's motivation and drive in future years.

O-townClown
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Post by O-townClown » Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:27 am

Trash, I think many parents are being careful.
Be kind. Rewind.

This is nuts!
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Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:05 pm

Post by This is nuts! » Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:31 am

Mite-dad wrote:I gotta agree with trash hauler. Yeah, he's throwing blankets, but parents have absolutely no idea if their kid falls under that blanket or not. How do you know if your present highly motivated Johnny will remain that way until he is 18? There is risk there for sure. Apparently, many parents are willing to take that risk and many will no doubt be disappointed with their child's motivation and drive in future years.
I agree somewhat with most opinions. But what I m not getting is advise on what you should do if Johnny superstar is highly motivated and wants to play year round. Do you tell him no? because he might want quit later and hate me for it.

icehornet
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Post by icehornet » Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:36 am

This is nuts! wrote: I agree somewhat with most opinions. But what I m not getting is advise on what you should do if Johnny superstar is highly motivated and wants to play year round. Do you tell him no? because he might want quit later and hate me for it.
Exactly this. Yes parents need to be careful how hard and far they push, it's a constant balancing act. But from some on here you would think parents shouldn't allow kids to shoot for the stars. Guess what, shooting for the stars and actually getting there requires a lot of work, dedication, and typically family support.

Trash Hauler
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Post by Trash Hauler » Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:55 am

This is nuts! wrote:
Mite-dad wrote:I gotta agree with trash hauler. Yeah, he's throwing blankets, but parents have absolutely no idea if their kid falls under that blanket or not. How do you know if your present highly motivated Johnny will remain that way until he is 18? There is risk there for sure. Apparently, many parents are willing to take that risk and many will no doubt be disappointed with their child's motivation and drive in future years.
I agree somewhat with most opinions. But what I m not getting is advise on what you should do if Johnny superstar is highly motivated and wants to play year round. Do you tell him no? because he might want quit later and hate me for it.
Age is a factor in answering that question. Is he/she 6, 10. 15? If we relate it to gifted learners, it's more important to encourage a 6 year old to explore other interests, and yes even limit how much time they spend on academic activities. If your 14 or 15 year old has decided to make the stretch for Valedictorian they are in a better position to make that determination and should then, MOSTLY on their own, make decisions and spend their time actively pursuing that. Even at that age, if the parents take on the goal for the student, and begin dreaming of the possibilities, there is not always, but often push back from the student. Here is the most basic of theories. When a child reaches adolescence, it is normal and almost expected for them to begin to explore their own capabilities outside of what others want for them, even going against what we want for them. For this reason, many gifted children that have been labeled, and most importantly, set on a path, at a young age go along with it for a period of time, but often rebel against it later. Guess what, your child may be a genious, but if you constantly place life expectations on them that are bigger than their current life view, the fail to reach their potential. I know, everyone says, I don't do that, they do it because they love it. They may very well love it. But if the parents then fall in love with that fact that they love it, they often reach a point of not loving it, just because they want it to be their decision. 6-11 year olds rarely show this. They wait until they are older. They often feel that decision making has been taked away, because others have now fallen deeply in love with the child's dreams, so they get a new one that is all their own. It is virtually impossible to hide this from the child as they grow and mature.

Do I think this applies to everyone? Of course not. I will stand by my statement that it happens ALOT. Do the same or similar theories apply to kids playing hockey as students in school? I believe they do.

Trash Hauler
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Post by Trash Hauler » Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:58 am

icehornet wrote:
This is nuts! wrote: I agree somewhat with most opinions. But what I m not getting is advise on what you should do if Johnny superstar is highly motivated and wants to play year round. Do you tell him no? because he might want quit later and hate me for it.
Exactly this. Yes parents need to be careful how hard and far they push, it's a constant balancing act. But from some on here you would think parents shouldn't allow kids to shoot for the stars. Guess what, shooting for the stars and actually getting there requires a lot of work, dedication, and typically family support.
Without a doubt, let them shoot for the stars. Too often, the parents decide to aim the gun for the kids, and they are secretly (except to the child that knows them best) crushed when they clank it off the post.

O-townClown
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Location: Typical homeboy from the O-Town

Post by O-townClown » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:04 pm

My son gets mad at me whenever he finds out I told someone no to an invite to play in something.
Be kind. Rewind.

BadgerBob82
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Post by BadgerBob82 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:06 pm

Trash hauler is generalizing but I think is 100% correct that many don't realize they have gone too far, until they've gone too far and can't go back.

This is nuts is asking for specific advice for a specific kid? Can't do that without knowing that kid. But I think if you have to ask...

icehornet seems to me to be the classic example. "parents need to be careful how hard and far they push" then asks why "parents shouldn't allow kids to shoot for the stars". It is a balancing act, but many parents are pushing their kid to reach the parent's "shooting for the stars" vision. Few 8 year olds really grasp dedication, work ethic and long range goal attainment.

This is nuts!
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Post by This is nuts! » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:11 pm

icehornet wrote:
This is nuts! wrote: I agree somewhat with most opinions. But what I m not getting is advise on what you should do if Johnny superstar is highly motivated and wants to play year round. Do you tell him no? because he might want quit later and hate me for it.
Exactly this. Yes parents need to be careful how hard and far they push, it's a constant balancing act. But from some on here you would think parents shouldn't allow kids to shoot for the stars. Guess what, shooting for the stars and actually getting there requires a lot of work, dedication, and typically family support.
The result of telling him "No" is going to be playing baseball which he doens't want to do because "it's boring". Or sitting at home playing video games.

Real life senario I m dealing with now. My Johnny superstar's summer hockey goes thru part of Sept. Association is putting on 3 on 3 fall league starting in Aug. to get ready for winter hockey. I told the coach when he called that Johnny's summer hockey is still going on and that I would have to ask Johnny if he wants to play. Now I debated wether I bring It up or not, but I figured he will find out anyway when his buddies are playing and will wonder why he isn't out there. So I thought I would ask him to see what his reaction would be. It was my way of checking his reaction to see if he needs a break. Of course he asked who was playing and I told X,Y, and Z is playing. And immediately he wanted in. I told him we would readdress the issue when the time gets closer. Maybe his mind will change.

Now do I let him play? or tell him no? Or leave it totally up to him?

If I say no. Guarenteed when he goes outside to play with his buddies(neighbor kids who will be at 3 on 3) this fall and no one is home cuz they are having fun playing 3 on 3 and My Johnny is at home pissed cuz there is no one to play with, so now hes playing video games or on the Ipad.

Opinions?

edgeless2
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Post by edgeless2 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:25 pm

What if my kid is Johnny average or better Johnny Edgeless. Keeping that my kids are average or below in mind, they still want to play non-stop. Do the same burnout rules still apply? Or do I throw all that out the window because I know he will never be Johnny Superstar and just let em play as much as they want and if they burnout, so what?

This is nuts!
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Post by This is nuts! » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:27 pm

BadgerBob82 wrote:Trash hauler is generalizing but I think is 100% correct that many don't realize they have gone too far, until they've gone too far and can't go back.

This is nuts is asking for specific advice for a specific kid? Can't do that without knowing that kid. But I think if you have to ask...

icehornet seems to me to be the classic example. "parents need to be careful how hard and far they push" then asks why "parents shouldn't allow kids to shoot for the stars". It is a balancing act, but many parents are pushing their kid to reach the parent's "shooting for the stars" vision. Few 8 year olds really grasp dedication, work ethic and long range goal attainment.
I m not really asking for advise Badger, more less making the point of at what point do you pull the reigns back on a kid who wants to play. I don't push him at all. I wish he liked baseball. I will say this to ppl who beleive kids shouldn't play summer hockey. is 3-4 hrs a week on the rink extreme.? I dont think so... leaves plenty of time to do other things.

I have a good handle on what is good for my kid, as i understand what is good for one kid is not good for another.

I think it is as simple as asking your kid "how things are going"? and "if they are getting tired of playing?" because if you dont ask they will often not tell you... :lol:

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