1:30 Penalties.....Seriously

[sinbin]

That's why I asked the question about "chippiness" (or substitute your own equivalent adjective). Please provide a link to a scientifically valid study that showed that there was no statistical difference in the number of penalties for a similar situation where penalty time was reduced from 2:00 to 1:30. Again, not saying it's good or bad, but we have a lot of strong opnions, which is fantastic, but we have some who confuse opinion with fact. I'm just curious how this will impact the youth game. My first instinct is that the game will get a bit rougher and this has been confirmed by the initial reaction of the 10 or so kids I've spoken with who've found out about it and seem excited to take more physical risks for lesser penalties. Again, this isn't scientific, either. I assume that the impressive MNHockey braintrust will measure the results of this rule change in 2010-11?

It's interesting that the Fair Play numbers wouldn't change. Currently, since we're measuring in minutes, you need 8 penalties (assuming all minors) for Bantams, 7 for PW, and 6 for Squirt to lose your Fair Play point. Now this will change to 10 for Bantam (25% increase), 9 for PW (29% increase), and 7 for Squirt (17% increase). Seems like a further opportunity for additional penalties without any consequences. Or, are they still going to credit all minor penalties as 2 minutes same as current? This is sounding like too much math.

But I'll reluctantly retract my predictions if they're contrary to the results of the peer-reviewed, statistically-valid chippiness study.

[JSR]

That's why I asked the question about "chippiness" (or substitute your own equivalent adjective). Please provide a link to a scientifically valid study that showed that there was no statistical difference in the number of penalties for a similar situation where penalty time was reduced from 2:00 to 1:30. Again, not saying it's good or bad, but we have a lot of strong opnions, which is fantastic, but we have some who confuse opinion with fact. I'm just curious how this will impact the youth game. My first instinct is that the game will get a bit rougher and this has been confirmed by the initial reaction of the 10 or so kids I've spoken with who've found out about it and seem excited to take more physical risks for lesser penalties. Again, this isn't scientific, either. I assume that the impressive MNHockey braintrust will measure the results of this rule change in 2010-11?

It's interesting that the Fair Play numbers wouldn't change. Currently, since we're measuring in minutes, you need 8 penalties (assuming all minors) for Bantams, 7 for PW, and 6 for Squirt to lose your Fair Play point. Now this will change to 10 for Bantam (25% increase), 9 for PW (29% increase), and 7 for Squirt (17% increase). Seems like a further opportunity for additional penalties without any consequences. Or, are they still going to credit all minor penalties as 2 minutes same as current? This is sounding like too much math.

But I'll reluctantly retract my predictions if they're contrary to the results of the peer-reviewed, statistically-valid chippiness study.

But if you must be smart alecy, here is a study that shows agressive behavior, ie chippiness, wouldn't likely be influenced by such a change:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bbushman/bw98.pdf

Overall 1:30 penalties verse 2:00 penalties will have no significant change in overal numbers of penalties or the agressiveness of the penalties incurred. Just like now, those factors are controlled by type of coaching and the nature of the palyer to begin with.

[theref]

At $180-200+ an hour for ice, Im in favor of less sitting.

Then tell your kid to stay out of the box

[theref]

If kids don't want to sit and parents don't want little johhny or jill to sit for 2 minutes, teach your kids not to take dumb penalties.

There are gonna be circumstances that call for kids to take a penalty as the 2:00 shorthanded is better than getting scored on, but for the rest of the dumb slashes, high sticks, etc... you are now letting the kids off easier.

I hope this rule gets overturned next year.

[HockeyGuy81]

If kids don't want to sit and parents don't want little johhny or jill to sit for 2 minutes, teach your kids not to take dumb penalties.

There are gonna be circumstances that call for kids to take a penalty as the 2:00 shorthanded is better than getting scored on, but for the rest of the dumb slashes, high sticks, etc... you are now letting the kids off easier.

I hope this rule gets overturned next year.

You can hope in one hand, crap in the other, and see which one fills up first.

[HockeyDad41]

That's not really true. Grade school basketball plays fewer minutes than college, but they still get 5 fouls - more fouls/minute. Peewee football may be played on a 60 yard field, but holding is still a 10 yard penalty - should it only be a 6 yard penalty. You don't get fewer yellow cards in a youth soccer game because the halves are shorter. You don't get 2 strikes instead of 3, because you only play 6 innings instead of 9.

Pavlov had dogs. Skinner had a box; he put his kid in it - for more than two minutes.

You actually just proved the point that rule modifcation does exist in ALL sports. Also, youth basketball has 8 foot rims, a smaler ball and gives 6 fouls not 5, atleast in the metro leagues down here it does. Baseball has a closer pitchers mound, shorter distance to bases, no leading off etc... Soccer has smaller fields, smaller balls, smaller goals, fewer players, up to age 10 they don't have offsides, etc.. etc... Football has 60 yard fields and actually in many areas they only have 5 yard penalties insead of ten. And a whole host of other modifications. Seems like you proved the pint instead of disproving it.

It doesn't prove your point at all. You are talking about reducing penalties because the game is shorter - that doesn't happen in any other sport that I'm aware of. Never seen a 5 yard holding penalty - offsides yes, but that is already 5 yards. Smaller balls and fields really doesn't pertain to what you were talking about. Still disappointed in you.

I don't think that is the point he is trying to make at all. He's talking about rule modification to proportionally fit the age level and experience of the kids.

If they allow a 2 minute penalty in hockey for the little kids with 12 minute periods, then why can't they check? Why can't they do touch up off sides? Why can't they take a slap shot? Because they are little kids and we need to modify the rules to reflect that. I'm surprised it took the hockey brains this long to recognize that a 2 minute penalty in a 12 minute period is not the same as a 2 minute penalty in a 20 minute period.

[seek & destroy]

I think the idea is to get the kids back on the ice after minor penalties and not have them sitting out.

Two problems with this rule change.

1) If the desire is REALLY to get kids on the ice quicker and not sit out then why not eliminate the 10 minute mouth guard penalty? Seems like that is a bigger situation of players having to sit out.

2) This one is a little controversial but true...fewer kids will be able to work on power play and penalty kill in actual game situations so they won't learn as much how to perform them. More often then not, the first group stays out for over a minute while they try to set up and then the 2nd group goes. With this rule you will have pretty much one group. Now, I realize coaches can/should have a 2nd group on the 2nd penalty and 3rd group on the 3rd penalty etc. but in real game situations they are likely to key in on the top 5 guys more often so the 2nd and 3rd groups will not get as many chances.

[InigoMontoya]

If they allow a 2 minute penalty in hockey for the little kids with 12 minute periods, then why can't they check? Why can't they do touch up off sides? Why can't they take a slap shot? Because they are little kids and we need to modify the rules to reflect that.

1) there are plenty of points that make the case that they should be allowed to check, they should play touch up offsides, they should be able to take a slap shot.
2) you're a MM guy; your argument should be: don't reduce the penalty from 2:00 to 1:30, increase the period from 12:00 to 17:00.

[InigoMontoya]

FYI the town I live in has 5 yard holding penalties in our youth football league in the town I live in.

In Wisconsin it's hard enough to find two guys that can walk and count at the same time, much less being able to count all the way to ten.

[sinbin]

MSR, thanks for the link to the study. I was being only partially smart-alecky, but mostly facetious. This study doesn't address the question directly, deals with a much different test subject group, and has only limited correlation, so at best a tangential relationship to our question. However, I think it also strongly suggests that the number of penalties would certainly not decrease if the resultant consequences were decreased by 25%. Anyway, it would still be very interesting to measure the results in this and subsequent seasons. Someone obviously measured something to get to the point of making a proposal, decision, and rule change, so let's finish it off and measure the impact and results. I suppose the ultimate measurement in addition to number of penalties would be quantitative and qualitative injuries, if MNHockey is continuing to track that. But at the end of the day, it looks like more ice time for almost all kids. Let's see how they utilize it.

[HockeyDad41]

If they allow a 2 minute penalty in hockey for the little kids with 12 minute periods, then why can't they check? Why can't they do touch up off sides? Why can't they take a slap shot? Because they are little kids and we need to modify the rules to reflect that.

1) there are plenty of points that make the case that they should be allowed to check, they should play touch up offsides, they should be able to take a slap shot.
2) you're a MM guy; your argument should be: don't reduce the penalty from 2:00 to 1:30, increase the period from 12:00 to 17:00.

I guess I've been called a lot worse on this board.

What level are you talking about? I don't think that a mite who trips another kid and spends 1:30 in the box instead of 2:00 is going to be ruined once he hits squirts and has to spend an extra 30 seconds in the box for the same penalty.

Also, I don't see how you can argue that a 2:00 minute tripping penalty for a kid playing a 12 minute run time period is not disproportionate to a pro taking the same penalty in a 20 minute period stop time game. Please explain that to me and I will gladly change my position.

[tonyleepers]

Lets elimate making them sit in the penalty box entirely. Make him/her stand in center ice and give the player a great big hug. Afterwards, we can then give them all medals.

[JSR]

Lets elimate making them sit in the penalty box entirely. Make him/her stand in center ice and give the player a great big hug. Afterwards, we can then give them all medals.

See this is over the top nonsense. No one is saying eliminate the penalty. No one is saying to stop teaching the game. All they are saying is look at the age level, the number of minutes in a period and make the penalty appropriate. How anyone in thier right mind thinks giving a 7 year old who is still learning the game a two minute penalty in a 12 minute period (when pros get 2 in a 20 minnute period adn should know better) is appropriate is beyond me. Seriously folks, you honestly can sit their striaght faced and say "yes, 7 year old mites should sit 2 minutes for a penalty they don;t even understand yet" when they only have a 12 minute period ot begin with. It's mind boggling actually? We've had 1:30 penalties for theyougner kids for YEARS, our hockey is the best it has ever been in this state and it continues to improve, it's not going to wreck the game, if anyting it probably will improve it as it has down here.

[InigoMontoya]

7 year old mites should sit 2 minutes for a penalty

I thought we were talking about bantams and peewees. I maybe wrong, I don't think most associations even put mites in the box. Then again, our association is the one hugging at center ice.

[JSR]

7 year old mites should sit 2 minutes for a penalty

I thought we were talking about bantams and peewees. I maybe wrong, I don't think most associations even put mites in the box. Then again, our association is the one hugging at center ice.

The way I understood it rule effects mites, squirts, pee wees and not sure but maybe also Bantams. I can see not wanting it changed for Bantams, I can see both sides for pee wees, I cannot see why you wouldn't want it for squirts and mites.

As for the refs and putting mites in the box, down here refs are more lax on the mites but they do still call penalties on them and put mites in the box if it's real egregious or just obvious, and sometimes just because that is how that ref is (by the book no matter what age). That said, I've been arguing mtie and squirt age the whole time, even said so deliberately in another posts in this thread. Made the argument that maybe the penalties should slowly scale up, starting at 1:30 for mites and squirts, then maybe 1:45 for Peewees then 2:00 for batnams on up

[greybeard58]

This is a pilot project which was approved by USA Hockey at their Annual meeting in June. The following is copied from the Mn Handbook and is located after the section on Youth playing rules on page 38 above the tournament supplement section. This applies to all levels where the time for a period is 15 minutes or less, so if the periods are 16 minutes in length then the minor penalty would remain at 2 minutes.

Minor Penalty Pilot Program

For the 2010-2011 season, minor penalties for all league,
exhibition/scrimmage, and tournament (invitational, district, region and
state) games with periods of 15 minutes or less will be 1½ minutes
rather than 2 minutes. Minnesota Hockey is conducting this one-year
pilot program for the 2010-2011 season only.
The Fair Play penalty-minute thresholds by level as outlined in Playing
Rule P-3 will remain as-is. For the purposes of Fair Play penalty
"equivalency" minutes, minor penalties will continue to be counted as
2 minutes as outlined in playing rule P-4 during this pilot.

[Maverick1999]

The problem with this rule, is every district runs things differently. I will use Bantams A as an example. In District 6 Bantam A play 14 minute period, in District 10 they play 17 minute period, in Bantam A, state they play 15 minute. So what this breaks down to is District 6 Bantam A will have 1:30 minute penalties and District 10 and Bantam A State will have 2:00 minute penalties. This is why it is not fair. Once the D6 team get up to state or plays in a game that is more than 15 minutes, they will have 2:00 penalties instead on 1:30. If all things were even across districts, I would be "more" ok with it. Not to mention how much time we will waste trying to figure out how to put 1:30 on the clock, and trying to figure out if this a game that should be 1:30 or 2:00, then figuring out how to delete the 2:00 and enter 1:30........and so on

[JSR]

The problem with this rule, is every district runs things differently. I will use Bantams A as an example. In District 6 Bantam A play 14 minute period, in District 10 they play 17 minute period, in Bantam A, state they play 15 minute. So what this breaks down to is District 6 Bantam A will have 1:30 minute penalties and District 10 and Bantam A State will have 2:00 minute penalties. This is why it is not fair. Once the D6 team get up to state or plays in a game that is more than 15 minutes, they will have 2:00 penalties instead on 1:30. If all things were even across districts, I would be "more" ok with it. Not to mention how much time we will waste trying to figure out how to put 1:30 on the clock, and trying to figure out if this a game that should be 1:30 or 2:00, then figuring out how to delete the 2:00 and enter 1:30........and so on

Entering 1:30 onto the clock is not any harder than entering 2:00. Same exact method just different numbers. The rest of your points are fairly valid

[InigoMontoya]

GB, is this only for minor penalties. Will a major still be 5 minutes, or will it be 3:45? Will the mouthguard penalty be reduced to 7:30?

[Maverick1999]

it is only for minor penalties. 5 minute majors will still be 5, and 10 min misconducts will still be 10. Now that makes a lot sense.......

[JSR]

Took me a while but finally found our official rules for this stuff down here and the age groups they apply:

Mite 12 - minute periods, 1½ minute minors, 3 minute majors, 6 minute misconduct

Squirt 12 - minute periods, 1½ minute minors, 3 minute majors, 6 minute misconduct

Pee Wee - 15 minute periods, 2 minute minors, 5 minute majors, 10 minute misconduct

Bantam - 15 minute periods, 2 minute minors, 5 minute majors, 10 minute misconduct

High School/MM or mm - 17 minute periods, 2 minute minors, 5 minute majors, 10 minute misconduct

I knew something didn't add up about the peewee and up versus the squirts and down. This makes alot more sense now.

[JoltDelivered]

The problem with this rule, is every district runs things differently. I will use Bantams A as an example. In District 6 Bantam A play 14 minute period, in District 10 they play 17 minute period, in Bantam A, state they play 15 minute. So what this breaks down to is District 6 Bantam A will have 1:30 minute penalties and District 10 and Bantam A State will have 2:00 minute penalties. This is why it is not fair. Once the D6 team get up to state or plays in a game that is more than 15 minutes, they will have 2:00 penalties instead on 1:30. If all things were even across districts, I would be "more" ok with it. Not to mention how much time we will waste trying to figure out how to put 1:30 on the clock, and trying to figure out if this a game that should be 1:30 or 2:00, then figuring out how to delete the 2:00 and enter 1:30........and so on

Entering 1:30 onto the clock is not any harder than entering 2:00. Same exact method just different numbers. The rest of your points are fairly valid

JSR...spot on, however, I have over the years witnessed many inept parent volunteers try to post penalty times without success, regardless of the amount of time. I have a suspicion we will see many 2:00 minute penalties posted this year which will then be followed by admonishment from the ref, coaches, fans, etc...so the proper 1:30 can be reposted. Not a reason to not try 1:30 minute penalties...but just an observation.

One other note. I believe some associations / districts in northern Minnesota have been using 1:30 minute penalties for years. When one of my older sons was a squirt 4 or 5 years ago we played in a tournament in Cloquet and they used 1:30 minute penalties. It seemed to work fine from my perspective although power plays were much less impactful and fewer chances were realized due to the 25% reduction in time.

[JSR]

The problem with this rule, is every district runs things differently. I will use Bantams A as an example. In District 6 Bantam A play 14 minute period, in District 10 they play 17 minute period, in Bantam A, state they play 15 minute. So what this breaks down to is District 6 Bantam A will have 1:30 minute penalties and District 10 and Bantam A State will have 2:00 minute penalties. This is why it is not fair. Once the D6 team get up to state or plays in a game that is more than 15 minutes, they will have 2:00 penalties instead on 1:30. If all things were even across districts, I would be "more" ok with it. Not to mention how much time we will waste trying to figure out how to put 1:30 on the clock, and trying to figure out if this a game that should be 1:30 or 2:00, then figuring out how to delete the 2:00 and enter 1:30........and so on

Entering 1:30 onto the clock is not any harder than entering 2:00. Same exact method just different numbers. The rest of your points are fairly valid

JSR...spot on, however, I have over the years witnessed many inept parent volunteers try to post penalty times without success, regardless of the amount of time. I have a suspicion we will see many 2:00 minute penalties posted this year which will then be followed by admonishment from the ref, coaches, fans, etc...so the proper 1:30 can be reposted. Not a reason to not try 1:30 minute penalties...but just an observation.

One other note. I believe some associations / districts in northern Minnesota have been using 1:30 minute penalties for years. When one of my older sons was a squirt 4 or 5 years ago we played in a tournament in Cloquet and they used 1:30 minute penalties. It seemed to work fine from my perspective although power plays were much less impactful and fewer chances were realized due to the 25% reduction in time.

Agree that some volunteers do have trouble using the clock in general, but if you know how to use your clock properly this shouldn't be a big issue overall in deciding whether to do it or not like you said. I like it and think it's very appropriate for younger ages like squirts and mites, I can see validity in not wnating it for pee wee's and above.

[sinbin]

Time clock should be largely irrelevant since you need to know how to put in a 5:00 minute penalty (which is different than the "automatic" 2:00 penalty), so just enter 1:30 instead of 5:00. 3 extra (maybe 4) buttons on most time clocks. I forgot that D6 Bantam A and B1 is only 14 minutes. Well, they'll get to 17 minutes for HS in a year or two. Agree that this rule will result in insonsistencies across districts. D6 indicated that refs are absolutely not supposed to help the time clock person figure it out. The solution - get the people on your team who know how to operate a clock to work with the parents at a couple of practices (check with coaches first) so they know how to run the clock. Write down instructions/cheat sheet and make copies for everyone on the team. Include on the instructions what to do if there are multiple penalties and if a penalty runs over from one period to the next. If no one on your team is a time clock expert, ask someone on the board for help. Better to learn during the pre-season than under fire in a league game.

If a player averages 1 penalty every other game (actual number probably less than this, depending on level), he/she misses out on an extra 2% of average total ice time (assuming 12-14 minute periods and skating every third shift) if penalties are 2:00 instead of 1:30. 2% doesn't seem too onerous or punative to me. Thugs will certainly benefit from the rule change, though. Games should be lower-scoring due to fewer PP opportunities, but I would also think the game scores would be closer so perhaps more exciting and/or relatively fewer blowouts.

Agree that 2 minutes is too long for Mites and probably Squirts. At some point, the kids need to realize the consequences of their actions. When's the right time to start - PW's, Bantam's? I'd say Bantams at the absolute latest since it's 2 minutes in HS, so you may as well get used to it.

[HockeyGuy81]

The solution - get the people on your team who know how to operate a clock to work with the parents at a couple of practices (check with coaches first) so they know how to run the clock. Write down instructions/cheat sheet and make copies for everyone on the team. Include on the instructions what to do if there are multiple penalties and if a penalty runs over from one period to the next. If no one on your team is a time clock expert, ask someone on the board for help. Better to learn during the pre-season than under fire in a league game.

This solution is far too logical to be on the youth hockey forum