Girls Playing On Boys Teams

Discussion of Minnesota Youth Hockey

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InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:28 pm

I think most of us missed your point because it's a pretty long stretch. Suzy's friends are only playing hockey because Suzy does? The logic doesn't make sense - Suzy is not playing basketball, so why would her friends? I don't think that theory holds much water.

TriedThat2
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Post by TriedThat2 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:03 am

IM,
That's why you missed the point. Girls hockey is a socially driven monster. You're either in or out, and if you are out, you look for other alternatives. The driven female athlete, doesn't care about the social end of things, but your average female does, and you need numbers to build a program.

muckandgrind
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Post by muckandgrind » Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:10 am

I don't have a problem with girls trying out for boys (youth) hockey. What I DO have a problem with, however, is a girl who tryouts out for the A team...doesn't make it.....then decides to go play girls because they don't want to play on the B or C boys team. I've seen it happen more than a few times and I think that's wrong.

spin-o-rama
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Post by spin-o-rama » Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:37 am

muckandgrind wrote:I don't have a problem with girls trying out for boys (youth) hockey. What I DO have a problem with, however, is a girl who tryouts out for the A team...doesn't make it.....then decides to go play girls because they don't want to play on the B or C boys team. I've seen it happen more than a few times and I think that's wrong.

Just curious why you believe that is wrong. I can see it being a headache for tryouts/picking of teams. I would look at it similar to a boy trying out for the next higher age group A team. If they don't make the A team then why not let them go back to their age group? They probably should.

Question: Would a U10 age superstar have better development playing squirt A or U12 A? The latter would keep the numbers in the girls program stronger. Should associations encourage this more as an alternative to playing "boys?"

muckandgrind
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Post by muckandgrind » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:28 am

spin-o-rama wrote:
muckandgrind wrote:I don't have a problem with girls trying out for boys (youth) hockey. What I DO have a problem with, however, is a girl who tryouts out for the A team...doesn't make it.....then decides to go play girls because they don't want to play on the B or C boys team. I've seen it happen more than a few times and I think that's wrong.

Just curious why you believe that is wrong. I can see it being a headache for tryouts/picking of teams. I would look at it similar to a boy trying out for the next higher age group A team. If they don't make the A team then why not let them go back to their age group? They probably should.

Question: Would a U10 age superstar have better development playing squirt A or U12 A? The latter would keep the numbers in the girls program stronger. Should associations encourage this more as an alternative to playing "boys?"
Every association I know of doesn't allow this either....if you want to play -up and tryout, if you don't make it you can't come back to your age group.

surehockey
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Post by surehockey » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:34 am

There is a girl on my son's squirt A team, and she deserves to be there. She would have had to play on my daughters U10B if she had to skate with the girls. IMO this would have hurt some of the girls on the U10 team because about 6 have never played hockey. And you can see right now the few girls that can skate are the only ones that really touch the puck ( in fact some of them take the puck from the less expeirenced girls) yeah sure there is the occasional goal by the girl just standing in front of the net, but they barely skate with the puck. We pay for our children to get better, and if that means having to skate on a boys team, I am all for it. What needs to be done is the HS league needs to put a stop to the HS taking 7th graders that don't belong there just to fill spots. That is what hurts assiociations. Most girls that play boys do so to squirt level then move back to girls. I know I am rambling...

mwild
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Post by mwild » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:16 pm

It's a shame that a girl can't play youth hockey without being scrutinized.

GMANDAD
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Post by GMANDAD » Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:43 pm

Elliot,

How do you tell the USHA issues from the MN hockey issues from the district issues and the association issues?
elliott70 wrote:
yeahyeahyeah wrote:
elliott70 wrote:There is no such thing as boys teams.

There are youth and girls teams.
AND THIS IS JUST PLAIN WRONG.
Mind you I am a fan of girls hockey as well as boys and I have been an administrator over both. I just cannot understand why the girls are allowed to have the right to chose between one or the other.
Girls hockey is strong enough today and should be allowed to stand on its own. The skill level is high enough that most girls will be challenged in girls hockey.
Some of the best girls playing at the highest levels or are about to play at the highest levels in a year or two have played girls all the way through.
I know for a fact that 99% of the states top scoring girls high school players played with the girls in youth hockey.
I guess that sums up my opinion.

Anyone ever really ask the girls what they want to do? I feel sorry for the girls in the locker room that have to go elsewhere to change. It is an uncomfortable feeling. Last week a woman played with a group I skate for, she came right into the mens locker room and started dressing. Of course none of us oculd really tell she was female.
Seriously what girl would want to sit with a bunch of smelly farting burping boys or well a bunch of smelly girls? haha
I am sure I know which one the boys would choose.
This is a USAH issue. MH has no say in how it is handled.

itsjustkidshockey
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Post by itsjustkidshockey » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:23 am

As associations work hard to develop a strong girls program, it can be a huge set-back when girls are ALLOWED the choice to play BOYS hockey. I'm sorry Elliot, I value your opinion but it's hard to swallow.

We had 2 girls choose to play squirts last year and their only reason was the girls team was going to lose a lot of games. I can't imagine the outrage if my boys said, "Dad I want to play girls hockey this year because the boys team is going to suck". Oh wait... They don't have a choice.

When is hockey going to stand up and challenge the sexual discrimination that favors girls. I'm totally, 110% in favor of supporting girls hockey - and in associations that don't offer a girls a program - absolutely play on the boys team. Maybe we should do away with girls hockey until the U12 level and make them all squirts - When I asked both dads of the girls that played squirts, they said that was a bad idea - because they would lose out on the chance to choose which teams to play for. I think that says it all.

Boys play boys - girls play girls.

InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:45 am

the girls team was going to lose a lot of games.
Why is that? Is the association offering the same opportunity to the 10U team that it is to the squirt team? Same number of games, same number of tournaments, same number of practice hours, same quality of coaching?

RealisticRonnie
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Post by RealisticRonnie » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:30 am

I don't see the problem having girls on boys teams. What are we trying to accomplish? If it is fielding the best team possible in our respective communities then you take the best PLAYERS. If the goal is development, then how can playing hockey at the most competitive level be bad for further development. It sounds to me there a few parents out there with sour grapes due to a girl "taking there son's roster spot". I would say to that "get better and work harder".

PWD10
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Post by PWD10 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:47 pm

It sounds to me there a few parents out there with sour grapes due to a girl "taking there son's roster spot". I would say to that "get better and work harder".
I say apply the "Four Way Test"

Is it the truth?
Is it fair to all concerned?
Will it build good will and better friendships?
Will it be beneficial to all concerned?

And the answer is...

elliott70
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Post by elliott70 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:17 pm

GMANDAD wrote:Elliot,

How do you tell the USHA issues from the MN hockey issues from the district issues and the association issues?
elliott70 wrote:
yeahyeahyeah wrote:
elliott70 wrote:There is no such thing as boys teams.

There are youth and girls teams.
AND THIS IS JUST PLAIN WRONG.
Mind you I am a fan of girls hockey as well as boys and I have been an administrator over both. I just cannot understand why the girls are allowed to have the right to chose between one or the other.
Girls hockey is strong enough today and should be allowed to stand on its own. The skill level is high enough that most girls will be challenged in girls hockey.
Some of the best girls playing at the highest levels or are about to play at the highest levels in a year or two have played girls all the way through.
I know for a fact that 99% of the states top scoring girls high school players played with the girls in youth hockey.
I guess that sums up my opinion.

Anyone ever really ask the girls what they want to do? I feel sorry for the girls in the locker room that have to go elsewhere to change. It is an uncomfortable feeling. Last week a woman played with a group I skate for, she came right into the mens locker room and started dressing. Of course none of us oculd really tell she was female.
Seriously what girl would want to sit with a bunch of smelly farting burping boys or well a bunch of smelly girls? haha
I am sure I know which one the boys would choose.
This is a USAH issue. MH has no say in how it is handled.
I wish there was a definitive answer to that.
We were all flabbergasted this weekend when the President of USAH told us that birth certificates was a MN issue.

elliott70
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Post by elliott70 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:21 pm

itsjustkidshockey wrote:As associations work hard to develop a strong girls program, it can be a huge set-back when girls are ALLOWED the choice to play BOYS hockey. I'm sorry Elliot, I value your opinion but it's hard to swallow.

We had 2 girls choose to play squirts last year and their only reason was the girls team was going to lose a lot of games. I can't imagine the outrage if my boys said, "Dad I want to play girls hockey this year because the boys team is going to suck". Oh wait... They don't have a choice.

When is hockey going to stand up and challenge the sexual discrimination that favors girls. I'm totally, 110% in favor of supporting girls hockey - and in associations that don't offer a girls a program - absolutely play on the boys team. Maybe we should do away with girls hockey until the U12 level and make them all squirts - When I asked both dads of the girls that played squirts, they said that was a bad idea - because they would lose out on the chance to choose which teams to play for. I think that says it all.

Boys play boys - girls play girls.
I understand your frustration, but as a MH board member I cannot advise anyone to opt for a law suit.
As president of Bemidji youth hockey when the I and the board were approached about a girl that wanted to play with the 'boys' team, I told them they would have to sue me, because I would not allow it.
But I cannot give that advise to anyone.

(We needed the girls to play with the girls so we could have a strong girls program. This was at the 12U level - or whatever it would have been at that time.)
Last edited by elliott70 on Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:23 pm

Wow, more often than not we are on opposite ends of an issue. Fun.

Once associations, districts, MN Hockey, and apparently especially some district directors stop expecting the girls to wear skirts with each team having three forwards and three defense on each side of the center line (careful - no more than two strides with the puck before you have to pass) and start giving the girls equal opportunities of ice time and quality coaching, the girls won't have a reason to play "youth" hockey.

elliott70
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Post by elliott70 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:00 pm

InigoMontoya wrote:Wow, more often than not we are on opposite ends of an issue. Fun.

Once associations, districts, MN Hockey, and apparently especially some district directors stop expecting the girls to wear skirts with each team having three forwards and three defense on each side of the center line (careful - no more than two strides with the puck before you have to pass) and start giving the girls equal opportunities of ice time and quality coaching, the girls won't have a reason to play "youth" hockey.
I remember those days - it was called GAA.

slapshot445
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Post by slapshot445 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:32 pm

this is such a simple issue it's unbelievable. BOYS AREN'T ALLOWED TO PLAY GIRLS, SO WHY CAN GIRLS PLAY BOYS? I thought we were trying to get away from gender discrimination this seems as obvious as anything i've ever seen. by the way that girl who makes the A team is taking a spot away from a boy on the A team, and the B team. in peewees she could be taking away three spots from others. it doesn't seem fair to boys, rules should apply to both girls and boys equally, i thought that was the whole idea behind equality?

observer
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Post by observer » Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:30 am

It is equal. They tried out and made the team.

A lot of opinions here but no situation is the same as another in girls hockey. There are never enough girls except at the largest few programs. Up until a few years ago several associations had no girls teams. In our association there were no girls mite teams and the mites all skated together. So now, at Mites, you see some of the girls are pretty athletic and skate well with the boys. At Squirts they try out and make the Squirt A team. It's no conspiracy, they tried out and made the team. If you had a daughter that's probably where you'd want her as a Squirt, skating 50 practices, passing and catching with the best players her age. Watch any Squirt A practice and then watch a 10UA practice, any 10UA practice. If you watching two different practices, in the same association, the skill level is higher in the Squirt A practice. Then comes PeeWee. Remember this girl has been a team mate with the boys since her first day of Mites. PeeWees are interesting because some of the girls grow and are actually bigger and stronger than most all of the boys. During PeeWee, and Squirt in some situations, some girls have a physical advantage over the boys. Bigger, stronger and faster than boys even two years older. Hello, coaches like those players.

Now our association has worked on girls recruiting and have several teams at 8U, a couple at 12 and a single 14 team. If a girl grows up in Eden Prairie, Edina, Mnkta, etc. they may play with the girls their whole life but few associations have those type of numbers, and offer an equal developmental experience, for a girl.

It's just a body and the body earned a spot. If you want your child to make an A team it requires that the child have superior athletic ability than all other participants and also work harder than all the other participants. Boy or girl, they earned a spot.

Also, don't just look at your association. If the boy player isn't A level at EP, WBL, Woodbury, Lakeville, etc. then the boy isn't really an A player. If he'd be a B1 at Maple Grove then he's a B1 player. People think they're guaranteed spots on smaller association, weaker, teams. Your kid is not guaranteed a spot unless he's outworking, and a better player, than all the others that come to tryouts. Earn it.

inthestands
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Post by inthestands » Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:41 am

(We needed the girls to play with the girls so we could have a strong girls program. This was at the 12U level - or whatever it would have been at that time.)

This is true in many cases.

One question, "where are these younger girls going to end up playing their high school hockey?"

With the boys, or with the girls?

What ever the answer is to that question, is where they should spend their youth hockey time.

kwjm
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Post by kwjm » Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:49 am

I understand your frustration, but as a MH board member I cannot advise anyone to opt for a law suit.
As president of Bemidji youth hockey when the I and the board were approached about a girl that wanted to play with the 'boys' team, I told them they would have to sue me, because I would not allow it.
But I cannot give that advise to anyone.

(We needed the girls to play with the girls so we could have a strong girls program. This was at the 12U level - or whatever it would have been at that time.)
Based on your previous quotes, I had the impression Eliot70 was a reasonable person. But when you admit to knowingly violating USA Hockey rules and suggest the only remedy is an ugly and costly lawsuit, I am disgusted.

If you don't like the rules, work with the governing body to have them changed. Of course, you will have to provide a persuasive argument accomplish your objective and that will be difficult. Don't violate the rules and use your position as an association president to bully someone.

InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:32 am

(We needed the girls to play with the girls so we could have a strong girls program. This was at the 12U level - or whatever it would have been at that time.)

This is true in many cases.

One question, "where are these younger girls going to end up playing their high school hockey?"
I think a better question is when are these younger girls going to end up playing their high school hockey? If the school is raiding the association for 7th graders, it's tough to field a 12U team at all, much less a competetive team. Now the assocaiation raids the figure skating club and the middle school for kids that have never played hockey before, just so they have enough. As we declare boys and girls "equal", how many peewee teams in the state are recruiting 6th and 7th graders to give it a try? I will state again that I think girls' hockey is improving, but it's not even close to offering the same opportunities that the boys have.

Why don't elementary schools have boys' reading and girls' reading. Girls are generally better readers, and enjoy reading similar types of stories; boys generally don't like to read, maybe comic books. If a boy was a heck of a reader, really enjoyed it and wanted to be the best reader he could be, he'd be denied Charlotte's Web and Alice in Wonderland and told to go sit with the other boys until they figure out Captain Underpants.

inthestands
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Post by inthestands » Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:42 am

Inigo, that varies quite a lot from school to school and I am very familiar with the situation. The 7th graders in most situations have "aged" out of 12 U hockey, and have no where to play if there isn't a 14U program.

All of a sudden the high school program might be able to field a JV team? Not always a bad idea. If coaching is at issue, this may be an upgrade..

Your elementary example is far from apples to apples. There are distinct classifications in boys and girls hockey, and it would be great if both programs would flourish and succeed.

Your Cpt. Underpants did get me laughing pretty good. Nice one.

InigoMontoya
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Post by InigoMontoya » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:18 am

There are distinct classifications in boys and girls hockey
What are the 'distinct classifications' differences between squirt and 10U?

redlightclub
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Post by redlightclub » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:19 am

Between a couple of associations up north there are four 7th and 8th grade girls playing high school that we know the families. 3 of the 4 are actually 12U/peewee eligible this year. One of the associations also has a 14U team. So the 14U has 9th graders on their team and the high school has 7th and 8th graders. Might sound like a problem to me. Oh, and the younger girls playing up all have one thing in common they played boys hockey extensively. It looks like a girl playing boys hockey is more likely to play high school at an earlier age.

elliott70
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Post by elliott70 » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:30 am

kwjm wrote:
I understand your frustration, but as a MH board member I cannot advise anyone to opt for a law suit.
As president of Bemidji youth hockey when the I and the board were approached about a girl that wanted to play with the 'boys' team, I told them they would have to sue me, because I would not allow it.
But I cannot give that advise to anyone.

(We needed the girls to play with the girls so we could have a strong girls program. This was at the 12U level - or whatever it would have been at that time.)
Based on your previous quotes, I had the impression Eliot70 was a reasonable person. But when you admit to knowingly violating USA Hockey rules and suggest the only remedy is an ugly and costly lawsuit, I am disgusted.

If you don't like the rules, work with the governing body to have them changed. Of course, you will have to provide a persuasive argument accomplish your objective and that will be difficult. Don't violate the rules and use your position as an association president to bully someone.
One remedy was an immediate response to a father. His desire would have not helped his daughter. My response helped the young programand his daughter.
The other remedy would have been long-term and never would have accomplished anything.
They could have appealed to MH and won and then both sides would have lost.
Before the end of the year the father told me that was the best thing for his daughter.

So if you want to call me out for doing the 'right thing' fine, but until you have to make the tough decisions (fill in the blank).

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