Northern Wings tourney top 98 teams

Discussion of Minnesota Youth Hockey

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InigoMontoya
Posts: 1716
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:36 pm

Post by InigoMontoya » Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:05 pm

If the few players from the Blades aren't going to change your team, then why knock another kid off? I don't think the few players from the Blades are going to play for Min/Wis next year. Introducing summer hockey is a great idea, but the few players from the Blades have already had an introduction.

Fill an open team with open players, or put together an invite team.

BluntInstrument
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:45 am

Post by BluntInstrument » Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:50 pm

mnhkylvr wrote:"would you ever hear your boss say,"It wouldn't be good for our business if we hired xyz to improve us, it just wouldn't be fair, besides, he has his MBA and it's more then any of us have." NO"

But you might hear your boss say, "Get off that blasted hockey forum and get some work done!" :lol: :lol: :lol:
nice analogy ... but if you don't know the difference between business and youth hockey then you shouldn't comment.

Besides, I am the boss :D

100percenteffort
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:32 pm

Post by 100percenteffort » Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:51 pm

But you might hear your boss say, "Get off that blasted hockey forum and get some work done!" :lol: :lol: :lol:[/quote]


I am the boss!! :lol:
To tell you the truth, I would rather have an employee respond to this forum verses taking a cigarette break!.. :oops:

BluntInstrument
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:45 am

Post by BluntInstrument » Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:57 pm

hockeydad30 wrote:
BluntInstrument wrote:
100percenteffort wrote:[but it raises the question if perhaps there should be more regulation to off season rosters and limiting kids to play on only one , two, three, or more teams in the off season. As it stands...it appears they are using the system to better their teams....


Are you serious??? Do you want to limit the amounts of clinics or camps they go to as well? "Off season " is exactly what it means...off season.
Some kids choose to play in the off season and there are many who choose not to play in the off season. I don't care who you are....Icemen, Machine, Synergy, Blade, Stealth......they are 10/11 years old and all they know is that they get to play hockey. Many kids are a part of different leagues and teams in the "off season" 3 on 3, Mash, Showcase, selects, superseries etc. The off season is about being able to continue to stay skating while developing and having fun doing it. As far as I'm concerned, all teams are "throw together" in the spring/summer/fall.
Why wouldn't you try to "better your team"? "Improving a "team" is part of life......would you ever hear your boss say,"It wouldn't be good for our business if we hired xyz to improve us, it just wouldn't be fair, besides, he has his MBA and it's more then any of us have." NO....you take the chance to learn from this guy and motivate yourself to get an MBA to keep your job!
All teams should be extatic about being able to play against or with a "better" team. The competition is better and it makes each and every player learn to step it up to a faster and more competitive game.

It sounds like you are bitter about not having a "few good players" on your team......well, find yourself some, it just may motivate the rest of your team to work harder and improve themselves......this is what off-season is all about. I know my daughter's soccer team "recruits" players when they go to tourney's in Iowa....it happens in all sports.

Leave the Jr. Badgers alone.....it's not like they "swept" the meltdown, they didn't even win.....Maybe you should be picking on the Thunder Bay team...they obviously had a few good players as well, should they not have been allowed to bring them either?
Like I said, these kids are 10/11, all they know (no matter what abiility they are) is that they get to play in a fun tournament and it's something
to do besides sitting and playing video games or getting in trouble somewhere. These tourneys are full of family involvement and encourages family's to spend time together. There is not one kid out there, good, bad or indifferent in their ability that doesn't deserve that.
This kinda goes to the heart of the whole true AAA discussion. Many complain that AAA is watered down and most teams should be classified as AA. One way this is handled is having an open tournament vs. invite tournament but teams playing in the open are loading up with invite players. Same would be said if you have a AA and AAA classification, would it be OK to have AA team have 3 or 4 AAA players playing in a AA tournament ? I don't have a dog in this fight so I dont know the answer to that but it doesn't pass the "smell" test...something doesn't "smell" right with that. Same with a team loading up with Invite players for an open tournament.

In the case of the Jr Badgers 98 team they didn't win which is true but it cuts to the heart of the issue. From what i read on other threads, after playing in all games leading up to the championship only 1 of the 4 blades players played in the championship game ... the rest went back to the Blades game that conflicted with the championship game. Is that right ? would a true "team" tolerate that ? I have no axe to grind with Blades players as they probably told the Badgers they would play as long as there wasn't a conflict ... the question is with the Badgers and tournament for allowing this. Is it fair to the to the other teams that signed up for the OPEN tournament, played and lost to the Badgers with the Blades players only to see the Badgers team play without the Blades players in the championship game ? that's a question for those teams but from afar it doesn't "smell" right.
I don't see a problem with bringing in a few players, I could see if it was 6 players but a couple players are not going to change the face of your team. The Min/Wis program is fairly new and this is a good way to try to bring in better players to maybe play with your club next year so you can build a better team. I see from the other top teams players come and go every year. Also there are kids that can't afford the whole season or are new to the AAA and don't now if the wan't to play the whole season. This is an easy way to introduce them and maybe hook them for coming years.
The idea behind AAA is to build as good as team as you can and come have some fun.
I think somewhere u said you were new to AAA and it may be that you don't understand but I don't think the Blades players are trying out for the Min/Wis team :shock:.

hockeydad30
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:56 pm

Post by hockeydad30 » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:05 pm

BluntInstrument wrote:
hockeydad30 wrote:
BluntInstrument wrote:
100percenteffort wrote:[but it raises the question if perhaps there should be more regulation to off season rosters and limiting kids to play on only one , two, three, or more teams in the off season. As it stands...it appears they are using the system to better their teams....


Are you serious??? Do you want to limit the amounts of clinics or camps they go to as well? "Off season " is exactly what it means...off season.
Some kids choose to play in the off season and there are many who choose not to play in the off season. I don't care who you are....Icemen, Machine, Synergy, Blade, Stealth......they are 10/11 years old and all they know is that they get to play hockey. Many kids are a part of different leagues and teams in the "off season" 3 on 3, Mash, Showcase, selects, superseries etc. The off season is about being able to continue to stay skating while developing and having fun doing it. As far as I'm concerned, all teams are "throw together" in the spring/summer/fall.
Why wouldn't you try to "better your team"? "Improving a "team" is part of life......would you ever hear your boss say,"It wouldn't be good for our business if we hired xyz to improve us, it just wouldn't be fair, besides, he has his MBA and it's more then any of us have." NO....you take the chance to learn from this guy and motivate yourself to get an MBA to keep your job!
All teams should be extatic about being able to play against or with a "better" team. The competition is better and it makes each and every player learn to step it up to a faster and more competitive game.

It sounds like you are bitter about not having a "few good players" on your team......well, find yourself some, it just may motivate the rest of your team to work harder and improve themselves......this is what off-season is all about. I know my daughter's soccer team "recruits" players when they go to tourney's in Iowa....it happens in all sports.

Leave the Jr. Badgers alone.....it's not like they "swept" the meltdown, they didn't even win.....Maybe you should be picking on the Thunder Bay team...they obviously had a few good players as well, should they not have been allowed to bring them either?
Like I said, these kids are 10/11, all they know (no matter what abiility they are) is that they get to play in a fun tournament and it's something
to do besides sitting and playing video games or getting in trouble somewhere. These tourneys are full of family involvement and encourages family's to spend time together. There is not one kid out there, good, bad or indifferent in their ability that doesn't deserve that.
This kinda goes to the heart of the whole true AAA discussion. Many complain that AAA is watered down and most teams should be classified as AA. One way this is handled is having an open tournament vs. invite tournament but teams playing in the open are loading up with invite players. Same would be said if you have a AA and AAA classification, would it be OK to have AA team have 3 or 4 AAA players playing in a AA tournament ? I don't have a dog in this fight so I dont know the answer to that but it doesn't pass the "smell" test...something doesn't "smell" right with that. Same with a team loading up with Invite players for an open tournament.

In the case of the Jr Badgers 98 team they didn't win which is true but it cuts to the heart of the issue. From what i read on other threads, after playing in all games leading up to the championship only 1 of the 4 blades players played in the championship game ... the rest went back to the Blades game that conflicted with the championship game. Is that right ? would a true "team" tolerate that ? I have no axe to grind with Blades players as they probably told the Badgers they would play as long as there wasn't a conflict ... the question is with the Badgers and tournament for allowing this. Is it fair to the to the other teams that signed up for the OPEN tournament, played and lost to the Badgers with the Blades players only to see the Badgers team play without the Blades players in the championship game ? that's a question for those teams but from afar it doesn't "smell" right.
I don't see a problem with bringing in a few players, I could see if it was 6 players but a couple players are not going to change the face of your team. The Min/Wis program is fairly new and this is a good way to try to bring in better players to maybe play with your club next year so you can build a better team. I see from the other top teams players come and go every year. Also there are kids that can't afford the whole season or are new to the AAA and don't now if the wan't to play the whole season. This is an easy way to introduce them and maybe hook them for coming years.
The idea behind AAA is to build as good as team as you can and come have some fun.
I think somewhere u said you were new to AAA and it may be that you don't understand but I don't think the Blades players are trying out for the Min/Wis team :shock:.
I was talking about the Jr. Bulldogs my son has a friend playing there this weekend for the 1st time. Good player just never did it before.

Chuck
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:46 am

Post by Chuck » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:18 pm

InigoMontoya wrote:If the few players from the Blades aren't going to change your team, then why knock another kid off? I don't think the few players from the Blades are going to play for Min/Wis next year. Introducing summer hockey is a great idea, but the few players from the Blades have already had an introduction.

Fill an open team with open players, or put together an invite team.
They played for them last year and came back this year. Why would next be any different?

mnhkylvr
Posts: 127
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:04 pm

Post by mnhkylvr » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:29 pm

BluntInstrument wrote:
mnhkylvr wrote:"would you ever hear your boss say,"It wouldn't be good for our business if we hired xyz to improve us, it just wouldn't be fair, besides, he has his MBA and it's more then any of us have." NO"

But you might hear your boss say, "Get off that blasted hockey forum and get some work done!" :lol: :lol: :lol:
nice analogy ... but if you don't know the difference between business and youth hockey then you shouldn't comment.

Besides, I am the boss :D
Um - BI I was pulling that analogy from a previous post. But glad to hear you're the one in charge! :lol:

Um - 100%, we both know who the boss is and I love her to pieces! :lol:

Thought this thread was getting a little heavy - so just wanted to interject a little humor. :lol:

I let you fellas get back to your pissing contest.

BluntInstrument
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:45 am

Post by BluntInstrument » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:36 pm

mnhkylvr wrote:
BluntInstrument wrote:
mnhkylvr wrote:"would you ever hear your boss say,"It wouldn't be good for our business if we hired xyz to improve us, it just wouldn't be fair, besides, he has his MBA and it's more then any of us have." NO"

But you might hear your boss say, "Get off that blasted hockey forum and get some work done!" :lol: :lol: :lol:
nice analogy ... but if you don't know the difference between business and youth hockey then you shouldn't comment.

Besides, I am the boss :D
Um - BI I was pulling that analogy from a previous post. But glad to hear you're the one in charge! :lol:

Um - 100%, we both know who the boss is and I love her to pieces! :lol:

Thought this thread was getting a little heavy - so just wanted to interject a little humor. :lol:

I let you fellas get back to your pissing contest.

Missed that reference so i guess my reply belongs to original post. No pissing contest I could care less just discussing ... as i said i dont have a dog in this fight

mnhkylvr
Posts: 127
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:04 pm

Post by mnhkylvr » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:39 pm

You are what they call a pot stirrer. Nothin wrong with that. It is fun to read. But who were you before you became BI? You seem much wiser than your 9 post history would indicate?

hockeydad30
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:56 pm

Post by hockeydad30 » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:41 pm

BluntInstrument wrote:
mnhkylvr wrote:
BluntInstrument wrote:
mnhkylvr wrote:"would you ever hear your boss say,"It wouldn't be good for our business if we hired xyz to improve us, it just wouldn't be fair, besides, he has his MBA and it's more then any of us have." NO"

But you might hear your boss say, "Get off that blasted hockey forum and get some work done!" :lol: :lol: :lol:
nice analogy ... but if you don't know the difference between business and youth hockey then you shouldn't comment.

Besides, I am the boss :D
Um - BI I was pulling that analogy from a previous post. But glad to hear you're the one in charge! :lol:

Um - 100%, we both know who the boss is and I love her to pieces! :lol:

Thought this thread was getting a little heavy - so just wanted to interject a little humor. :lol:

I let you fellas get back to your pissing contest.

Missed that reference so i guess my reply belongs to original post. No pissing contest I could care less just discussing ... as i said i dont have a dog in this fight
Thats what this is suppose to be about. You can see this is close to home for some. my son plays A hockey all winter, this is suppoose to be fun. but I like a good debate :D

100percenteffort
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:32 pm

Post by 100percenteffort » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:47 pm

BluntInstrument wrote:
100percenteffort wrote:[but it raises the question if perhaps there should be more regulation to off season rosters and limiting kids to play on only one , two, three, or more teams in the off season. As it stands...it appears they are using the system to better their teams....


Are you serious??? Do you want to limit the amounts of clinics or camps they go to as well? "Off season " is exactly what it means...off season.
Some kids choose to play in the off season and there are many who choose not to play in the off season. I don't care who you are....Icemen, Machine, Synergy, Blade, Stealth......they are 10/11 years old and all they know is that they get to play hockey. Many kids are a part of different leagues and teams in the "off season" 3 on 3, Mash, Showcase, selects, superseries etc. The off season is about being able to continue to stay skating while developing and having fun doing it. As far as I'm concerned, all teams are "throw together" in the spring/summer/fall.
Why wouldn't you try to "better your team"? "Improving a "team" is part of life......would you ever hear your boss say,"It wouldn't be good for our business if we hired xyz to improve us, it just wouldn't be fair, besides, he has his MBA and it's more then any of us have." NO....you take the chance to learn from this guy and motivate yourself to get an MBA to keep your job!
All teams should be extatic about being able to play against or with a "better" team. The competition is better and it makes each and every player learn to step it up to a faster and more competitive game.

It sounds like you are bitter about not having a "few good players" on your team......well, find yourself some, it just may motivate the rest of your team to work harder and improve themselves......this is what off-season is all about. I know my daughter's soccer team "recruits" players when they go to tourney's in Iowa....it happens in all sports.

Leave the Jr. Badgers alone.....it's not like they "swept" the meltdown, they didn't even win.....Maybe you should be picking on the Thunder Bay team...they obviously had a few good players as well, should they not have been allowed to bring them either?
Like I said, these kids are 10/11, all they know (no matter what abiility they are) is that they get to play in a fun tournament and it's something
to do besides sitting and playing video games or getting in trouble somewhere. These tourneys are full of family involvement and encourages family's to spend time together. There is not one kid out there, good, bad or indifferent in their ability that doesn't deserve that.
This kinda goes to the heart of the whole true AAA discussion. Many complain that AAA is watered down and most teams should be classified as AA. One way this is handled is having an open tournament vs. invite tournament but teams playing in the open are loading up with invite players. Same would be said if you have a AA and AAA classification, would it be OK to have AA team have 3 or 4 AAA players playing in a AA tournament ? I don't have a dog in this fight so I dont know the answer to that but it doesn't pass the "smell" test...something doesn't "smell" right with that. Same with a team loading up with Invite players for an open tournament.

In the case of the Jr Badgers 98 team they didn't win which is true but it cuts to the heart of the issue. From what i read on other threads, after playing in all games leading up to the championship only 1 of the 4 blades players played in the championship game ... the rest went back to the Blades game that conflicted with the championship game. Is that right ? would a true "team" tolerate that ? I have no axe to grind with Blades players as they probably told the Badgers they would play as long as there wasn't a conflict ... the question is with the Badgers and tournament for allowing this. Is it fair to the to the other teams that signed up for the OPEN tournament, played and lost to the Badgers with the Blades players only to see the Badgers team play without the Blades players in the championship game ? that's a question for those teams but from afar it doesn't "smell" right.
I don't have a "dog" in this fight either, but I did see the championship game and it was a good game reguardless.

IMO, The fact is....logically....tourneys can't run on unwritten rules, not everyone will know the unwritten rule. Showcase advertised as a AAA tourney.
Open vs Invite??

Open:
1. not closed or barred at the time, as a doorway by a door.
2. to permit passage through the opening it can be used to close.
3. having no means of closing or barring: an open portico.

Invite:
to request the presence or participation of in a kindly, courteous, or complimentary way, esp. to request to come or go to some place, gathering, entertainment, etc.,

Invite simply means that some teams were invited, open means that any team calling themselves AAA can enter.

I appreciate and agree with what some perceive or recognize the open tourney to be but this is in the hands of Showcase and they are the ones who have to define it as AA or AAA. (Just like an "A" association team would never enter a "B" tournament.) but they don't and maybe need to.
It is written in the rules that a player can play both weekends. This is clearly stating that they see no difference within AAA. So until they do, right or wrong, nobody can go around making up rules as they see fit and judge other teams based on their own standards or beliefs because all the teams WERE following the rules.

100percenteffort
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:32 pm

Post by 100percenteffort » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:47 pm

BluntInstrument wrote:
100percenteffort wrote:[but it raises the question if perhaps there should be more regulation to off season rosters and limiting kids to play on only one , two, three, or more teams in the off season. As it stands...it appears they are using the system to better their teams....


Are you serious??? Do you want to limit the amounts of clinics or camps they go to as well? "Off season " is exactly what it means...off season.
Some kids choose to play in the off season and there are many who choose not to play in the off season. I don't care who you are....Icemen, Machine, Synergy, Blade, Stealth......they are 10/11 years old and all they know is that they get to play hockey. Many kids are a part of different leagues and teams in the "off season" 3 on 3, Mash, Showcase, selects, superseries etc. The off season is about being able to continue to stay skating while developing and having fun doing it. As far as I'm concerned, all teams are "throw together" in the spring/summer/fall.
Why wouldn't you try to "better your team"? "Improving a "team" is part of life......would you ever hear your boss say,"It wouldn't be good for our business if we hired xyz to improve us, it just wouldn't be fair, besides, he has his MBA and it's more then any of us have." NO....you take the chance to learn from this guy and motivate yourself to get an MBA to keep your job!
All teams should be extatic about being able to play against or with a "better" team. The competition is better and it makes each and every player learn to step it up to a faster and more competitive game.

It sounds like you are bitter about not having a "few good players" on your team......well, find yourself some, it just may motivate the rest of your team to work harder and improve themselves......this is what off-season is all about. I know my daughter's soccer team "recruits" players when they go to tourney's in Iowa....it happens in all sports.

Leave the Jr. Badgers alone.....it's not like they "swept" the meltdown, they didn't even win.....Maybe you should be picking on the Thunder Bay team...they obviously had a few good players as well, should they not have been allowed to bring them either?
Like I said, these kids are 10/11, all they know (no matter what abiility they are) is that they get to play in a fun tournament and it's something
to do besides sitting and playing video games or getting in trouble somewhere. These tourneys are full of family involvement and encourages family's to spend time together. There is not one kid out there, good, bad or indifferent in their ability that doesn't deserve that.
This kinda goes to the heart of the whole true AAA discussion. Many complain that AAA is watered down and most teams should be classified as AA. One way this is handled is having an open tournament vs. invite tournament but teams playing in the open are loading up with invite players. Same would be said if you have a AA and AAA classification, would it be OK to have AA team have 3 or 4 AAA players playing in a AA tournament ? I don't have a dog in this fight so I dont know the answer to that but it doesn't pass the "smell" test...something doesn't "smell" right with that. Same with a team loading up with Invite players for an open tournament.

In the case of the Jr Badgers 98 team they didn't win which is true but it cuts to the heart of the issue. From what i read on other threads, after playing in all games leading up to the championship only 1 of the 4 blades players played in the championship game ... the rest went back to the Blades game that conflicted with the championship game. Is that right ? would a true "team" tolerate that ? I have no axe to grind with Blades players as they probably told the Badgers they would play as long as there wasn't a conflict ... the question is with the Badgers and tournament for allowing this. Is it fair to the to the other teams that signed up for the OPEN tournament, played and lost to the Badgers with the Blades players only to see the Badgers team play without the Blades players in the championship game ? that's a question for those teams but from afar it doesn't "smell" right.
I don't have a "dog" in this fight either, but I did see the championship game and it was a good game reguardless.

IMO, The fact is....logically....tourneys can't run on unwritten rules, not everyone will know the unwritten rule. Showcase advertised as a AAA tourney.
Open vs Invite??

Open:
1. not closed or barred at the time, as a doorway by a door.
2. to permit passage through the opening it can be used to close.
3. having no means of closing or barring: an open portico.

Invite:
to request the presence or participation of in a kindly, courteous, or complimentary way, esp. to request to come or go to some place, gathering, entertainment, etc.,

Invite simply means that some teams were invited, open means that any team calling themselves AAA can enter.

I appreciate and agree with what some perceive or recognize the open tourney to be but this is in the hands of Showcase and they are the ones who have to define it as AA or AAA. (Just like an "A" association team would never enter a "B" tournament.) but they don't and maybe need to.
It is written in the rules that a player can play both weekends. This is clearly stating that they see no difference within AAA. So until they do, right or wrong, nobody can go around making up rules as they see fit and judge other teams based on their own standards or beliefs because all the teams WERE following the rules.

InigoMontoya
Posts: 1716
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:36 pm

Post by InigoMontoya » Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:27 pm

(Just like an "A" association team would never enter a "B" tournament.
To further your association analogy: a B association team would never take two or three players from their A team to a B tournament.

The whole idea of AAA v. AA, or Tier 1 v. Tier 2, or Alliance, that has been discussed centers around competetive play. The best teams play the best teams, the better teams play the better teams, the average teams play the average teams, etc. What is the point of stacking a better team playing in a better tournament with best players? It may not be against the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law. In any case it seems the parents of the better kids playing on better teams in a better tournament didn't particularly care for those best kids being on the ice. One thing is for certain, you can't stop those parents for judging and, thankfully, sharing those judgements on this forum.

BluntInstrument
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:45 am

Post by BluntInstrument » Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:47 pm

mnhkylvr wrote:You are what they call a pot stirrer. Nothin wrong with that. It is fun to read. But who were you before you became BI? You seem much wiser than your 9 post history would indicate?
pot stirrer, devils advocate ... probably true. I was no one before i was blunt. Just a long time lurker decided to post as this topic has shown itself in many forms such as AAA vs. AA, Large association vs. small association, 2 A teams & 1 B vs. 1 A & 2B yet here we have teams openly saying they are lower class (open) like so many want them to admit and they still fight to compete cause someone still wants to bend the rules for the almighty win. have to play. Maybe it will be settled before my mite gets to this ... if he gets to this.

hockeydad30
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:56 pm

Post by hockeydad30 » Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:49 pm

InigoMontoya wrote:
(Just like an "A" association team would never enter a "B" tournament.
To further your association analogy: a B association team would never take two or three players from their A team to a B tournament.

The whole idea of AAA v. AA, or Tier 1 v. Tier 2, or Alliance, that has been discussed centers around competetive play. The best teams play the best teams, the better teams play the better teams, the average teams play the average teams, etc. What is the point of stacking a better team playing in a better tournament with best players? It may not be against the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law. In any case it seems the parents of the better kids playing on better teams in a better tournament didn't particularly care for those best kids being on the ice. One thing is for certain, you can't stop those parents for judging and, thankfully, sharing those judgements on this forum.
but there are no regulations just AAA open or invite

BluntInstrument
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:45 am

Post by BluntInstrument » Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:27 pm

hockeydad30 wrote:
InigoMontoya wrote:
(Just like an "A" association team would never enter a "B" tournament.
To further your association analogy: a B association team would never take two or three players from their A team to a B tournament.

The whole idea of AAA v. AA, or Tier 1 v. Tier 2, or Alliance, that has been discussed centers around competetive play. The best teams play the best teams, the better teams play the better teams, the average teams play the average teams, etc. What is the point of stacking a better team playing in a better tournament with best players? It may not be against the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law. In any case it seems the parents of the better kids playing on better teams in a better tournament didn't particularly care for those best kids being on the ice. One thing is for certain, you can't stop those parents for judging and, thankfully, sharing those judgements on this forum.
but there are no regulations just AAA open or invite
There is a higher form of regulation called spirit of competition. Why do you suppose they have 2 classifications of tournaments open and invite ? I guess I'm not into regulations ... I would think common sense could rule the day.

hockeydad30
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:56 pm

Post by hockeydad30 » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:40 pm

BluntInstrument wrote:
hockeydad30 wrote:
InigoMontoya wrote:
(Just like an "A" association team would never enter a "B" tournament.
To further your association analogy: a B association team would never take two or three players from their A team to a B tournament.

The whole idea of AAA v. AA, or Tier 1 v. Tier 2, or Alliance, that has been discussed centers around competetive play. The best teams play the best teams, the better teams play the better teams, the average teams play the average teams, etc. What is the point of stacking a better team playing in a better tournament with best players? It may not be against the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law. In any case it seems the parents of the better kids playing on better teams in a better tournament didn't particularly care for those best kids being on the ice. One thing is for certain, you can't stop those parents for judging and, thankfully, sharing those judgements on this forum.
but there are no regulations just AAA open or invite
There is a higher form of regulation called spirit of competition. Why do you suppose they have 2 classifications of tournaments open and invite ? I guess I'm not into regulations ... I would think common sense could rule the day.
But it won't if people can find an advantage they will use it. Right or wrong. its a fact. unless you have somebody to police it and make rules

gdahl
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:37 pm

Post by gdahl » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:16 pm

I admit i do not know what is right or wrong. I do know that if you have a fat checkbook it becomes much easier to manage all the choices available. I have zero problem with kids playing on multiple teams.....but why is it O.K. out of season but not in season?


[but it raises the question if perhaps there should be more regulation to off season rosters and limiting kids to play on only one , two, three, or more teams in the off season. As it stands...it appears they are using the system to better their teams....


Are you serious??? Do you want to limit the amounts of clinics or camps they go to as well? "Off season " is exactly what it means...off season.

As it stands...it appears they are using the system to better their teams....what is wrong with being better?

westervillego19
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:24 am

Post by westervillego19 » Fri May 01, 2009 9:19 am

This Open/Invite distinction has evolved over the last ten years. The Minn Spring hockey landscape has dramatically chanegd in the last three years.

The biggest change is the entry of for-profit groups into the landscape. Showcase has always been for-profit, but never had teams until last year. BM brought the for-profit youth team model to Minnesota, starting with tournament teams (Pride) then forming the machine and now with four teams at many levels. Then, these guys joined together to form the "alliance" hoping kids would have to pay to join tier teams or be left out of the invite level. Of course , this spawned new tournaments this year.

This also leads to more teams borrowing Elite players for Open tournaments. We now have at least six for-profit hockey groups with teams in the Twin Cities. Almost all wererelegated to "open" status for the meltdown. To show off their "product", these organizations must do well at the Open level. They are thus motivated by money or ego to roster elite players to try to win the open tournament. This leaves the true "open" player watching the star score again.

muckandgrind
Posts: 1566
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:48 am

Post by muckandgrind » Fri May 01, 2009 9:54 am

hockeydad30 wrote:
BluntInstrument wrote:
hockeydad30 wrote:
InigoMontoya wrote:
(Just like an "A" association team would never enter a "B" tournament.
To further your association analogy: a B association team would never take two or three players from their A team to a B tournament.

The whole idea of AAA v. AA, or Tier 1 v. Tier 2, or Alliance, that has been discussed centers around competetive play. The best teams play the best teams, the better teams play the better teams, the average teams play the average teams, etc. What is the point of stacking a better team playing in a better tournament with best players? It may not be against the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law. In any case it seems the parents of the better kids playing on better teams in a better tournament didn't particularly care for those best kids being on the ice. One thing is for certain, you can't stop those parents for judging and, thankfully, sharing those judgements on this forum.
but there are no regulations just AAA open or invite
There is a higher form of regulation called spirit of competition. Why do you suppose they have 2 classifications of tournaments open and invite ? I guess I'm not into regulations ... I would think common sense could rule the day.
But it won't if people can find an advantage they will use it. Right or wrong. its a fact. unless you have somebody to police it and make rules
Isn't that sad? People KNOW it's wrong, but will do it anyway because there is no governing body to police it.

Let me ask you a question...do you play golf? Do you follow the same philosophy on the course? Do you need someone to tell you what is right and what is wrong, or do you just follow your conscience?

We wouldn't NEED a governing body to create and enforce rules if coaches and teams did the right thing and play at the correct level.

InigoMontoya
Posts: 1716
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:36 pm

Post by InigoMontoya » Fri May 01, 2009 10:15 am

This Open/Invite distinction has evolved over the last ten years. The Minn Spring hockey landscape has dramatically chanegd in the last three years.

The biggest change is the entry of for-profit groups into the landscape. Showcase has always been for-profit, but never had teams until last year. BM brought the for-profit youth team model to Minnesota, starting with tournament teams (Pride) then forming the machine and now with four teams at many levels. Then, these guys joined together to form the "alliance" hoping kids would have to pay to join tier teams or be left out of the invite level. Of course , this spawned new tournaments this year.

This also leads to more teams borrowing Elite players for Open tournaments. We now have at least six for-profit hockey groups with teams in the Twin Cities. Almost all wererelegated to "open" status for the meltdown. To show off their "product", these organizations must do well at the Open level. They are thus motivated by money or ego to roster elite players to try to win the open tournament. This leaves the true "open" player watching the star score again.
I have no problem with someone making money. To quote Gordon Gekko, "Greed is good. Greed works." I think a free market summer AAA environment would eventually reach equilibrium if left to itself. Alliance type actions, like tariffs and trade regulations, throw a wrench into the market, which I believe will, ironically, be detrimental for one of the participants; but I digress.

Most of the rhetoric thrown around on this forum has been by parents and coaches of teams that they consider much better than most of the other teams. They tire of beating teams 12-0 while not taking a single shot in the 3rd period. That's fine; I don't think the kids on the other team enjoyed it much either. My question is, why continue to play those games? Play the better teams. By the same token, keep your superstars off of those teams when they play open tournaments. You are perpetuating the very thing you rail against. A team wins an open tourney going away two years in a row, then gets to play in the invite tourney, however, because they are not playing that tourney with the 1st line they used in the open, they lose 12-0. No "rules or regulations" were broken, but who wins in that situation?

hockeydad30
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:56 pm

Post by hockeydad30 » Sat May 02, 2009 4:02 pm

muckandgrind wrote:
hockeydad30 wrote:
BluntInstrument wrote:
hockeydad30 wrote:
InigoMontoya wrote:
(Just like an "A" association team would never enter a "B" tournament.
To further your association analogy: a B association team would never take two or three players from their A team to a B tournament.

The whole idea of AAA v. AA, or Tier 1 v. Tier 2, or Alliance, that has been discussed centers around competetive play. The best teams play the best teams, the better teams play the better teams, the average teams play the average teams, etc. What is the point of stacking a better team playing in a better tournament with best players? It may not be against the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law. In any case it seems the parents of the better kids playing on better teams in a better tournament didn't particularly care for those best kids being on the ice. One thing is for certain, you can't stop those parents for judging and, thankfully, sharing those judgements on this forum.
but there are no regulations just AAA open or invite
There is a higher form of regulation called spirit of competition. Why do you suppose they have 2 classifications of tournaments open and invite ? I guess I'm not into regulations ... I would think common sense could rule the day.
But it won't if people can find an advantage they will use it. Right or wrong. its a fact. unless you have somebody to police it and make rules
Isn't that sad? People KNOW it's wrong, but will do it anyway because there is no governing body to police it.

Let me ask you a question...do you play golf? Do you follow the same philosophy on the course? Do you need someone to tell you what is right and what is wrong, or do you just follow your conscience?

We wouldn't NEED a governing body to create and enforce rules if coaches and teams did the right thing and play at the correct level.
Why do some of you act like min/wis is the only team that does this
Northern wings has an Icemen player
at the Meltdown the Snipers had Duece and Machine players
Plus there are many others I am not going to say them all.

BluntInstrument
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:45 am

Post by BluntInstrument » Sat May 02, 2009 4:19 pm

hockeydad30 wrote:
muckandgrind wrote:
hockeydad30 wrote:
BluntInstrument wrote:
hockeydad30 wrote:
InigoMontoya wrote:
(Just like an "A" association team would never enter a "B" tournament.
To further your association analogy: a B association team would never take two or three players from their A team to a B tournament.

The whole idea of AAA v. AA, or Tier 1 v. Tier 2, or Alliance, that has been discussed centers around competetive play. The best teams play the best teams, the better teams play the better teams, the average teams play the average teams, etc. What is the point of stacking a better team playing in a better tournament with best players? It may not be against the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law. In any case it seems the parents of the better kids playing on better teams in a better tournament didn't particularly care for those best kids being on the ice. One thing is for certain, you can't stop those parents for judging and, thankfully, sharing those judgements on this forum.
but there are no regulations just AAA open or invite
There is a higher form of regulation called spirit of competition. Why do you suppose they have 2 classifications of tournaments open and invite ? I guess I'm not into regulations ... I would think common sense could rule the day.
But it won't if people can find an advantage they will use it. Right or wrong. its a fact. unless you have somebody to police it and make rules
Isn't that sad? People KNOW it's wrong, but will do it anyway because there is no governing body to police it.

Let me ask you a question...do you play golf? Do you follow the same philosophy on the course? Do you need someone to tell you what is right and what is wrong, or do you just follow your conscience?

We wouldn't NEED a governing body to create and enforce rules if coaches and teams did the right thing and play at the correct level.
Why do some of you act like min/wis is the only team that does this
Northern wings has an Icemen player
at the Meltdown the Snipers had Duece and Machine players
Plus there are many others I am not going to say them all.
Not sure anyone has said it was only one team, you on the other hand seem bent on defending in on the premise of everyone is going it, theres no regulations against it etc. Like i tell my kid - does that make it right?

muckandgrind
Posts: 1566
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:48 am

Post by muckandgrind » Sat May 02, 2009 7:46 pm

hockeydad30 wrote:
muckandgrind wrote:
hockeydad30 wrote:
BluntInstrument wrote:
hockeydad30 wrote:
InigoMontoya wrote:
(Just like an "A" association team would never enter a "B" tournament.
To further your association analogy: a B association team would never take two or three players from their A team to a B tournament.

The whole idea of AAA v. AA, or Tier 1 v. Tier 2, or Alliance, that has been discussed centers around competetive play. The best teams play the best teams, the better teams play the better teams, the average teams play the average teams, etc. What is the point of stacking a better team playing in a better tournament with best players? It may not be against the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law. In any case it seems the parents of the better kids playing on better teams in a better tournament didn't particularly care for those best kids being on the ice. One thing is for certain, you can't stop those parents for judging and, thankfully, sharing those judgements on this forum.
but there are no regulations just AAA open or invite
There is a higher form of regulation called spirit of competition. Why do you suppose they have 2 classifications of tournaments open and invite ? I guess I'm not into regulations ... I would think common sense could rule the day.
But it won't if people can find an advantage they will use it. Right or wrong. its a fact. unless you have somebody to police it and make rules
Isn't that sad? People KNOW it's wrong, but will do it anyway because there is no governing body to police it.

Let me ask you a question...do you play golf? Do you follow the same philosophy on the course? Do you need someone to tell you what is right and what is wrong, or do you just follow your conscience?

We wouldn't NEED a governing body to create and enforce rules if coaches and teams did the right thing and play at the correct level.
Why do some of you act like min/wis is the only team that does this
Northern wings has an Icemen player
at the Meltdown the Snipers had Duece and Machine players
Plus there are many others I am not going to say them all.
That's the classic "if everyone ELSE is doing it, why can't I?" argument....when your kid asks you that question, how do you normally respond?

Nobody is saying the Min/Wis team is the only one doing it, but it still doesn't make it right.

...and tell me...which Duece team played at the Meltdown?
Last edited by muckandgrind on Sat May 02, 2009 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

gdahl
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:37 pm

summer aaa

Post by gdahl » Sat May 02, 2009 9:16 pm

After rereading mine and some other posts i feel i need to better state my opinion on the rosters teams field for these tourneys. I believe it is just fine for any kid to play on any number of teams during the off season. However I think each team should have to submit a roster at the begining of the off season and stick to it. This roster should be limited to a maximum 15 skaters and 2 goalies for the entire off season. I do not care to classify the individual kids as open or invite caliber. The individual teams can do that and then enter appropriate tourneys. Back to the original subject of this thread....the 98 wings are truly a class above the other teams in this tourney. The jr bulldogs are 2nd and than another gap to the rest of the teams. I had originally thought the jr bulldogs would win only one game in this tourney based on their roster they have on their own minn/wisc. website. The roster they submitted for this tourney who were not before on their own website has four very solid players who scored alot of points for them this weekend. Unfortunately their is little regulation for summer hockey...but if their was I would like to see teams stick to one 17 man roster for the whole season.

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