Any Meltdown scores from last night?

Discussion of Minnesota Youth Hockey

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DMom
Posts: 993
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:46 am

Post by DMom » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:11 am

Muck has hit the nail on the head. Those of you who are arguing with him, stop and think about it, you are arguing that it's okay to sit your paying players just to try and win a tournament. I watched part of a game last year, same tournament, same team. The "ringers" were handed their jerseys as they came in--not a rumor, I was in the lobby and witnessed it. It's bad for the sport and it's bad for kids. I saw two kids last season, and they stood out because they actually had their names on their jerseys and they were wearing white helmets, that got in the game for one shift. You tell a 9 year old that that's the reality of hockey, give me a break.

You want to put together a team for tourneys, than don't accept money from players whose families think their kids are actually going to play. Parents don't write checks to teams that bring in kids for tournaments. That isn't normal or usual, unless your fees are lower and you know about it before the season starts. Don't do it. Everyone but the kids are to blame in this situation.

As for the Blades, they have a lot of power, they have a great reputation, as an organization they can use that to stop this particular team.

Funny, Bernie was ripped on for stopping this exact same thing. Kudos to Mr. McBain for stepping up and saying No--as that kid is also already on another "invite" team. (although I am sorry that Boogie/slasher/chan man/Bernie/judge/rocket's kid was made a focus by his Dad).

Sk8 Str8
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:21 am

Post by Sk8 Str8 » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:01 am

I agree that bringing in "Ringers" and sitting kids who paid for large stretches of tournaments is in bad taste and buyer beware to sign your kid up for a team like that. Ask for full disclosure from the coach prior to sending the check.

But the Blades, Icemen and MN Made do not "own" the kids on their teams--those kids pay to play, not the other way around. Yes, AAA is competitive hockey, but it is offseason hockey with no boundries or ownership. Kids that play for these elite teams do commit to making that team a prioity. If kid wants to play baseball, go on vacation, play 3 on 3 or skate with more than one team, it is the parent and player who should decide.

iwearmysunglassesatnight
Posts: 314
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:07 pm

Post by iwearmysunglassesatnight » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:04 am

Funny, Bernie was ripped on for stopping this exact same thing. Kudos to Mr. McBain for stepping up and saying No--as that kid is also already on another "invite" team. (although I am sorry that Boogie/slasher/chan man/Bernie/judge/rocket's kid was made a focus by his Dad).[/quote]

DMom do you know for a fact that the boy, bernie said could not play in his trny is the one of which you speak of? Is it possible it was a boy from Prior Lake that Bernie and his father had a falling out with? The same has been repeated with B'Mac at the 88', 96, 97, and now the 99 level.
Was a duster and paying for it?????

jBlaze3000
Posts: 207
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:25 pm

Post by jBlaze3000 » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:08 am

For those who think it's ok to bring in ringers in the open tournament:

What is the point of having an open and invite then????

muckandgrind
Posts: 1566
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:48 am

Post by muckandgrind » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:14 am

Sk8 Str8 wrote:I agree that bringing in "Ringers" and sitting kids who paid for large stretches of tournaments is in bad taste and buyer beware to sign your kid up for a team like that. Ask for full disclosure from the coach prior to sending the check.

But the Blades, Icemen and MN Made do not "own" the kids on their teams--those kids pay to play, not the other way around. Yes, AAA is competitive hockey, but it is offseason hockey with no boundries or ownership. Kids that play for these elite teams do commit to making that team a prioity. If kid wants to play baseball, go on vacation, play 3 on 3 or skate with more than one team, it is the parent and player who should decide.
Of course not...and I don't blame the Blades kids at all...it's the coaches of the teams who are bringing in these ringers I have an issue with. I wonder if they talked to all the paying parents before giving these Blades kids a call?

Although, some summer AAA invite teams, including one my son plays on had us sign a contract saying that he can't play on other hockey teams during the summer. He can play baseball, soccer, or any other sport...just no other hockey teams.

100percenteffort
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:32 pm

Post by 100percenteffort » Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:04 am

Sk8 Str8 wrote:I agree that bringing in "Ringers" and sitting kids who paid for large stretches of tournaments is in bad taste and buyer beware to sign your kid up for a team like that. Ask for full disclosure from the coach prior to sending the check.

But the Blades, Icemen and MN Made do not "own" the kids on their teams--those kids pay to play, not the other way around. Yes, AAA is competitive hockey, but it is offseason hockey with no boundries or ownership. Kids that play for these elite teams do commit to making that team a prioity. If kid wants to play baseball, go on vacation, play 3 on 3 or skate with more than one team, it is the parent and player who should decide.
Does someone know for sure that these kids didn't pay?? or is this being assumed? Were some of the kids told that they would see less ice? ( a few of them are listed as alternates on their website) Not that it makes it right, just wanted to know if they knew what they were getting in to.
I believe that the coach's kid played with the blades last year.

silentbutdeadly3139
Posts: 475
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:50 pm

Re: Gimme a break!

Post by silentbutdeadly3139 » Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:55 pm

The Final Word wrote:I watched the 98 Badgers in the Championship without the Blades players and they had many opportunities to win and played the Thunder Bay team very tough only losing 2-1.
Why is it that some people are hung up on Blades, Machine, WI or MN? Is it really that big of a deal? My kids have friends from both sides of the river and play with multiple teams. Both "invite level teams and open level teams." So, what.... Playing with different kids, & talent make players better. Plus, they get to meet new kids and have fun!
Why should any lets say "good/invite" player(or the organization he may play with) be scrutinzied? Why should any player who wants to play hockey have to stay home because he plays on an invite teams (Such as the Blades or Machine), when there is other hockey tourneys to play in? Every weekend's tourney can't be an invite or an open tourney. So, those players who want to play more hockey can and should be able to do whatever they want to - without all the BS Whining. Isn't that what we all try to get away from in winter hockey.......? When when AAA Starts should any player(s) hold themselves back? THEY SHOULDN'T!
Ethics? Wow, now there is a can of worms......
* Is what the Machine doing by maditory practices, no life "ethical" for any kid? Is giving up on players who committ to such a thing 100% & then get let go to be replaced with someone else of equal or lesser abilities ethical?
* Is limiting any kid to play additional sports - ethical?
* Is being jeolous of other invite players playing additional hockey on any team bad just because he schooled your little johnny from getting a goal in AAA? :-(
* Is it wrong for any coach to look for calls while on the bench? Heck no, watch any pro, college, HS, AAA, or youth hockey game and it happens every game..... Good for that coach, he is obviously watching the game and looking out for his team.....
* Is it "ethical" or shall I say respectable to blog anything that points a negative finger at an organization, player or families for any reason?

I have a lot of respect for all AAA organizations and what they offer for kids. Think of how many kids get the opportunity to play AAA and how many associations benefit in the winter from this. All players can't play on all teams and have varying abilities, so it is good to have options for all. Along those same lines is the fact the many MN players choose to leave our MN associations and go to WI for the winter. Is this not the same thing some of you are whining about? Get over it and put your efforts into spending more time with your kids and not on a blog spinning your wheels on trying to tear down any org, player(s), and/or coaches. In the end, it is all a waste of time. The good players get known, the good teams/organizations speak for themselves and the players with the whining parents are singled out as well & are not wanted to be a part of most teams.
Go Blades, Go Machine, Go Badgers, GO Everyone! Get the best players you can, whenever you want, wherever you find them and we'll see you all at the next tourney. Win or Lose, I'll just be happy watching my own kids play hockey with smiles on their faces and getting better tourney after tourney - That's what is all about. Not the win/loss catagories....
Oh, BTW. I happened to check the Badgers site. What a great organization with a great site. And it looks like a WI player led their team in pts in the end..........
On another note. I enjoyed the Warrior Cup and hats off to that org. for putting on a nice tourney. Glad to have more options out there locally!
Perhaps you watched from the JR Badger bench ? judging by your post history it would seem so. This thread is eerily similar to this thread : http://www.ushsho.com/forums/viewtopic. ... ht=#381612. WI player probably played between the 2 "borrowed" players :) Agree, kid had fun in the Warrior Cup.

JSR
Posts: 1673
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:26 pm

Post by JSR » Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:37 pm

skilldevelopementguy wrote:
DonnyHockey wrote:Champions I'm aware of:
'98 - Thunder Bay
'00 - CCM
I saw this and the score above that showed 98 ccm 6 and 98 jr. Badgers 6. In both cases, this can be a bit confusing because there are 3 ccm teams at these ages (actually, I am not sure if there is a 98 ccm capitals so there may only be 2 ccm teams at that age). So to clarify, I suggest putting the info down like this...

98 Jr. Gophers - 6
98 CCM Monopoly Open - 6

And in the 2000 championship

00 Thunder Bay Northern Hawks - 2
00 CCM Monopoly Invite - 4

Or just call them the Monopoly. The other CCM probram probably should be called CCM Capitals to avoid confusion with the Madison Capitals though.

Some other results I know...

99 Champs - Jr. Badgers over the 99 Manitoba Colts (don't know the score)
00 madison stars played the 00 manitoba thunderbolts for 3rd place - stopped watching this @ 1 to 1 so I don't know the final.
98 third place - Fort Francais over Monopoly Invite 4 to 1.
The 00 Madison Stars won the 2000 level third place game 5-1. My son played for this Madison Stars team. They lost to the Monopoly in the semi-final game but honestly it didn't look like the same team that played in all those other games, the kids were exhausted by Sunday, I thought CCM was a better team but I thought our kids could have given them a much better game had they played like they did in the first three games and even in the third place game later that day. Alot of games, staying up way past their bedtime in a hotel, etc.. etc.. it's alot for an 8 year old. I was proud of them none the less. All of our kids play for local Madison area suburb Youth Hockey club teams. We have kids on our team that were, in my personal opinon, invite caliber players (#11, #8, #7, #10, and one of the goalies). Interestingly because of several of the posts on this thread on this board I can tell you that most of our parents did not know the difference between what the Invite and the Open tournament was. Apparently the "open-vs-invite" politics of your area is lost on us to some degree. Interestingly I saw the roster for the Madison Capitols 2000 team that will participate in next weeks Meltdown Invite tourney and I know all the kids on that team and well, in trying to not sound terrible, our Stars team would beat that Capitols team, if we played them 10 times, our Stars would probably win 7 or 8 times out of ten. The Stars are lead by some fore thinking folks who want to see Wisconsin hockey model itself similarly to Minnesota hockey in that, they want kids to play for their local clubs in the regular season and those clubs are pseudo feeder programs for the High Schools, and try and make AAA hockey a before and after deal like Minnesota does. The Madison Capitols are year round AAA and there are many who believe this is not healthy for kids at such a young age (I agree). So several invite caliber are choosing the Stars over the Caps in our area of late (the caps are not happy about this and there is some anymosity between teh programs right now). Does that mean we should have played in the Invite tourney, no, we jsut have different "politics" of our own down here so to speak.
Last edited by JSR on Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

SuperStar
Posts: 1285
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:26 am

Post by SuperStar » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:39 am

95 CCM 6
95 Legacy 2

95 Breakaway 12
95 Synergy 0

coach75
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:59 am

98 Jr Bagders

Post by coach75 » Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:17 am

JoeBoy wrote:
WildFan wrote:why is the '98 Jr. Badger's in the open tourney again in '09? Didn't they win the '98 open in '08?
I'm sure they won't/can't move up because their best players are Blades players they pick up for this tournament so they would loose them and couldn't compete.
The last 2 years they have been in the Championship. in fact in the last 2 years no Mn team has made it. other than the No Wings in a different division. And the WI Flames won it prior to that. It comes down to recruiting having a winning program. The kids making new pals and most important having fun!

muckandgrind
Posts: 1566
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:48 am

Re: 98 Jr Bagders

Post by muckandgrind » Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:23 am

coach75 wrote:
JoeBoy wrote:
WildFan wrote:why is the '98 Jr. Badger's in the open tourney again in '09? Didn't they win the '98 open in '08?
I'm sure they won't/can't move up because their best players are Blades players they pick up for this tournament so they would loose them and couldn't compete.
The last 2 years they have been in the Championship. in fact in the last 2 years no Mn team has made it. other than the No Wings in a different division. And the WI Flames won it prior to that. It comes down to recruiting having a winning program. The kids making new pals and most important having fun!
Sounds like you're affiliated with this program in some manner....why won't they step up and play at the invite level? Is it because the best players on the team (who they "recruited") would not be available to them?

puckhogI
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:47 pm

Tier I/II - USA National Youth Hockey Championships.

Post by puckhogI » Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:34 am

Tier I Hockey in WI is not what it is all cracked up to be. I have a couple friends who now live in WI and their kids used to play Tier I. According to them, and from what they have been told; Tier I was for years offered a year round alternative for AAA players. But, as years have passed, the desire to play AAA Tier I has deminished as well. This is due to many reasons including: locations of these Tier I programs, today's economy, & the improvement of many youth hockey orgs across the state. The quality of the lower levels is good indication of how far it has fallen. Most of the younger levels of Tier I in WI could not beat the similar age group Top WAHA Youth Hockey teams. USA Hockey is now offering to ALL US States the ability to send their State Champions to attend the National Tourney to compete for the National Crown. This is going to be awsome for those teams to achieve such an accomplishment! CLick on the link below for more info.

http://www.usahockey.com/Youth_National ... edNews=yes

I also asked him what he knows within his hockey world in WI and what spring/summer/fall AAA Teams there were and how they ranked. Here's what I was told - for what its worth.

1.) WI JR Badgers (Min/Wis AAA Hockey)
2.) Madison Stars
3.) West. WI Blue Devils
4.) Cent. WI Flyers
5.) WI Blaze (Somerset)

coach75
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:59 am

Re: 98 Jr Bagders

Post by coach75 » Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:40 am

muckandgrind wrote:
coach75 wrote:
JoeBoy wrote:
WildFan wrote:why is the '98 Jr. Badger's in the open tourney again in '09? Didn't they win the '98 open in '08?
I'm sure they won't/can't move up because their best players are Blades players they pick up for this tournament so they would loose them and couldn't compete.
The last 2 years they have been in the Championship. in fact in the last 2 years no Mn team has made it. other than the No Wings in a different division. And the WI Flames won it prior to that. It comes down to recruiting having a winning program. The kids making new pals and most important having fun!
Sounds like you're affiliated with this program in some manner....why won't they step up and play at the invite level? Is it because the best players on the team (who they "recruited") would not be available to them?


Yes the Jr. Badgers, Jr. Bulldogs, Jr. North Stars 98 have very strong teams and during June and July they will have an allstar team made up of their top player which will be playing some top tourney's so we will see how they do. I think they will be a tough team to beat. And yes most of the kids are from Wisconsin. Infact if you want to watch the 98 North Stars play The Blaze @ 1:30 this Sunday in Somerset then after that they Play MN Made Duece. Should be some good AAA hockey. It's about the kids having fun!

Night Train
Posts: 350
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:16 pm

Post by Night Train » Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:51 am

Thanks Puckhog. Interesting story about the evolution of the best approach in Wisconsin.

Outstanding news about the Tier II national championships!

skilldevelopementguy
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:18 pm

Post by skilldevelopementguy » Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:54 am

JSR wrote:
skilldevelopementguy wrote:
DonnyHockey wrote:Champions I'm aware of:
'98 - Thunder Bay
'00 - CCM
I saw this and the score above that showed 98 ccm 6 and 98 jr. Badgers 6. In both cases, this can be a bit confusing because there are 3 ccm teams at these ages (actually, I am not sure if there is a 98 ccm capitals so there may only be 2 ccm teams at that age). So to clarify, I suggest putting the info down like this...

98 Jr. Gophers - 6
98 CCM Monopoly Open - 6

And in the 2000 championship

00 Thunder Bay Northern Hawks - 2
00 CCM Monopoly Invite - 4

Or just call them the Monopoly. The other CCM probram probably should be called CCM Capitals to avoid confusion with the Madison Capitals though.

Some other results I know...

99 Champs - Jr. Badgers over the 99 Manitoba Colts (don't know the score)
00 madison stars played the 00 manitoba thunderbolts for 3rd place - stopped watching this @ 1 to 1 so I don't know the final.
98 third place - Fort Francais over Monopoly Invite 4 to 1.
The 00 Madison Stars won the 2000 level third place game 5-1. My son played for this Madison Stars team. They lost to the Monopoly in the semi-final game but honestly it didn't look like the same team that played in all those other games, the kids were exhausted by Sunday, I thought CCM was a better team but I thought our kids could have given them a much better game had they played like they did in the first three games and even in the third place game later that day. Alot of games, staying up way past their bedtime in a hotel, etc.. etc.. it's alot for an 8 year old. I was proud of them none the less. All of our kids play for local Madison area suburb Youth Hockey club teams. We have kids on our team that were, in my personal opinon, invite caliber players (#11, #8, #7, #10, and one of the goalies). Interestingly because of several of the posts on this thread on this board I can tell you that most of our parents did not know the difference between what the Invite and the Open tournament was. Apparently the "open-vs-invite" politics of your area is lost on us to some degree. Interestingly I saw the roster for the Madison Capitols 2000 team that will participate in next weeks Meltdown Invite tourney and I know all the kids on that team and well, in trying to not sound terrible, our Stars team would beat that Capitols team, if we played them 10 times, our Stars would probably win 7 or 8 times out of ten. The Stars are lead by some fore thinking folks who want to see Wisconsin hockey model itself similarly to Minnesota hockey in that, they want kids to play for their local clubs in the regular season and those clubs are pseudo feeder programs for the High Schools, and try and make AAA hockey a before and after deal like Minnesota does. The Madison Capitols are year round AAA and there are many who believe this is not healthy for kids at such a young age (I agree). So several invite caliber are choosing the Stars over the Caps in our area of late (the caps are not happy about this and there is some anymosity between teh programs right now). Does that mean we should have played in the Invite tourney, no, we jsut have different "politics" of our own down here so to speak.
Funny how this post has changed since last night...

I am pretty sure that just about every team that played the top 2000 Monopoly team would say that they had a bad game against them. Look at the Manitoba Hurricanes. Their closest game other than the loss to the Monopoly was a 7 to 1 win against the Jr. Badgers.

The 2000 Monopoly did not play with normal intensity against the Stars so maybe neither team was near their best.
The extra "e" in "developement" is for EXCELLENT!

JSR
Posts: 1673
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:26 pm

Post by JSR » Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:07 pm

skilldevelopementguy wrote:
JSR wrote:
skilldevelopementguy wrote:
DonnyHockey wrote:Champions I'm aware of:
'98 - Thunder Bay
'00 - CCM
I saw this and the score above that showed 98 ccm 6 and 98 jr. Badgers 6. In both cases, this can be a bit confusing because there are 3 ccm teams at these ages (actually, I am not sure if there is a 98 ccm capitals so there may only be 2 ccm teams at that age). So to clarify, I suggest putting the info down like this...

98 Jr. Gophers - 6
98 CCM Monopoly Open - 6

And in the 2000 championship

00 Thunder Bay Northern Hawks - 2
00 CCM Monopoly Invite - 4

Or just call them the Monopoly. The other CCM probram probably should be called CCM Capitals to avoid confusion with the Madison Capitals though.

Some other results I know...

99 Champs - Jr. Badgers over the 99 Manitoba Colts (don't know the score)
00 madison stars played the 00 manitoba thunderbolts for 3rd place - stopped watching this @ 1 to 1 so I don't know the final.
98 third place - Fort Francais over Monopoly Invite 4 to 1.
The 00 Madison Stars won the 2000 level third place game 5-1. My son played for this Madison Stars team. They lost to the Monopoly in the semi-final game but honestly it didn't look like the same team that played in all those other games, the kids were exhausted by Sunday, I thought CCM was a better team but I thought our kids could have given them a much better game had they played like they did in the first three games and even in the third place game later that day. Alot of games, staying up way past their bedtime in a hotel, etc.. etc.. it's alot for an 8 year old. I was proud of them none the less. All of our kids play for local Madison area suburb Youth Hockey club teams. We have kids on our team that were, in my personal opinon, invite caliber players (#11, #8, #7, #10, and one of the goalies). Interestingly because of several of the posts on this thread on this board I can tell you that most of our parents did not know the difference between what the Invite and the Open tournament was. Apparently the "open-vs-invite" politics of your area is lost on us to some degree. Interestingly I saw the roster for the Madison Capitols 2000 team that will participate in next weeks Meltdown Invite tourney and I know all the kids on that team and well, in trying to not sound terrible, our Stars team would beat that Capitols team, if we played them 10 times, our Stars would probably win 7 or 8 times out of ten. The Stars are lead by some fore thinking folks who want to see Wisconsin hockey model itself similarly to Minnesota hockey in that, they want kids to play for their local clubs in the regular season and those clubs are pseudo feeder programs for the High Schools, and try and make AAA hockey a before and after deal like Minnesota does. The Madison Capitols are year round AAA and there are many who believe this is not healthy for kids at such a young age (I agree). So several invite caliber are choosing the Stars over the Caps in our area of late (the caps are not happy about this and there is some anymosity between teh programs right now). Does that mean we should have played in the Invite tourney, no, we jsut have different "politics" of our own down here so to speak.
Funny how this post has changed since last night...

I am pretty sure that just about every team that played the top 2000 Monopoly team would say that they had a bad game against them. Look at the Manitoba Hurricanes. Their closest game other than the loss to the Monopoly was a 7 to 1 win against the Jr. Badgers.

The 2000 Monopoly did not play with normal intensity against the Stars so maybe neither team was near their best.
I don't know, maybe, maybe not. No one was trying to slight the Monopoly and I think I openly admitted they were a better team. I merely said I thought the team was capable of giving them a better game than they did. I do not know this as fact but I am assuming most of the Monopoly kids got to sleep in their own beds and went to ebd at a decent hour each night, as oppsed to the Stars kids who were up til midnight each night sleeping in a hotel room. I think a toll is taken on kids this young in a tourney like this was my only point. This was our first ever experience and overall it was a good one, I was just pointing out what my perception was. Why is everyone so cynical on this board, it's kid's playing hockey not war and famine?

Wisconsin Coach
Posts: 77
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:10 pm

Bad PuckhogI Rankings

Post by Wisconsin Coach » Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:13 pm

I would guess "puckhogI" has no clue on "who is who" in Wisconsin.
(Boys) Tier 1 AAA is Madison Capitols, Wisconsin Fire, Green Bay Gamblers, and Milwaukee Admirals. Team Wisconsin, North Wisc. Blizzards and Phoenix are also Tier 1 AAA with Before and After teams at the Midget level.

As for Spring/Summer AAA there are many teams. I know players on most of them from 93 to 99 age groups. I do not know many hockey people that consider Jr Badgers as the top team at any age level. What age level are you ranking? at different ages there are different teams that are a step or 2 better then the others. you rank without considering Capitols, Admirals, Blizzards, Central Wisc. AAA, N.W. Bucks, Venom, Tundra, Stars, etc....

PuckhogI you need to talk to some different people.

skilldevelopementguy
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:18 pm

Post by skilldevelopementguy » Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:25 pm

JSR,

I guess I became cynical when you apparently edited your post and changed identities. Whatever, its a message board, who knows what anybody around here is representing?

This is just my opinion, but the Monopoly was off their game for large stretches of the semifinal because they were in running time in the first period against the Jr. Badgers and throttled way back for the rest of that game in order to not be jerks. As a result they weren't sharp against the Stars. Then again, we are talking about 8 year olds, how much intensity can I expect? Anyway, I understand that you aren't slighting the Monopoly and that your players were up late. That does have an effect.

In my opinion the stars were the 4th best team in the tourney... behind the hurricanes... and the top 3 are definitely invite calibre in my opinion, and the Stars may be as well.
The extra "e" in "developement" is for EXCELLENT!

JSR
Posts: 1673
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:26 pm

Re: Tier I/II - USA National Youth Hockey Championships.

Post by JSR » Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:28 pm

puckhogI wrote:Tier I Hockey in WI is not what it is all cracked up to be. I have a couple friends who now live in WI and their kids used to play Tier I. According to them, and from what they have been told; Tier I was for years offered a year round alternative for AAA players. But, as years have passed, the desire to play AAA Tier I has deminished as well. This is due to many reasons including: locations of these Tier I programs, today's economy, & the improvement of many youth hockey orgs across the state. The quality of the lower levels is good indication of how far it has fallen. Most of the younger levels of Tier I in WI could not beat the similar age group Top WAHA Youth Hockey teams. USA Hockey is now offering to ALL US States the ability to send their State Champions to attend the National Tourney to compete for the National Crown. This is going to be awsome for those teams to achieve such an accomplishment! CLick on the link below for more info.

http://www.usahockey.com/Youth_National ... edNews=yes

I also asked him what he knows within his hockey world in WI and what spring/summer/fall AAA Teams there were and how they ranked. Here's what I was told - for what its worth.

1.) WI JR Badgers (Min/Wis AAA Hockey)
2.) Madison Stars
3.) West. WI Blue Devils
4.) Cent. WI Flyers
5.) WI Blaze (Somerset)
I agree with this assessment overall. The sport is definitely growing and the prevalance of rink accessibility etc... is growing as well.

As an example of this growth, I graduated high school in 1991 (18 years ago). When I graduated in our "area" there were technically 3 rinks in Madison, 1 in Sun Prairie, 1 in Waupan, 1 in Janesville, and 1 in Beloit that I recall so there were basically 6 rinks in our 4 county area, and those rinks housed 5 youth hockey associations and the Capitols AAA organization.

Fast forward to 2009. Madison still has the same 3 rinks, however madison suburbs now all have rinks. McFarland has 1, Oregon has 1, Stoughton has 1, Verona has 1, Middleton (now home of the Capitols) has a rink with 2 sheets of ice, Dodgeville has 1, Monroe has 1, Sun Prairie still has 1, Wisconsin Dells has 1, Beaver Dam has 1, Waupan still has 1, Reedsburg has 1, Baraboo has 1. And all have their own youth hockey associtions. So just in our little south central part of the state they've grown from 6 sheets of ice, 5 youth associations and 1 year round AAA team, to 17 sheets of ice, 15 youth associations, 1 year round AAA team and 1 "before & after" (spring/smmer/fall) AAA team. In my opinion this is tremendous growth for the sport in the state.

You are seeing a huge upswing in the talent and competition levels at the high school level as well. It was not too many years ago high school age players who were good enough all opted for year round Tier 1 AAA teams and would not consdier playing for their high schools. Now the talented kids are now choosing their high school teams during regular season and doing Before & After teams as a compliment to their high schools much like Minnesota does. Prime examples are kids liek Ted Behrend, who went straight from his high school to playing for Colorado College this year as a true freshman (aka no junior hockey in between). It's eciting to watch the sport grow in this state and take on this evolution.

JSR
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Re: Bad PuckhogI Rankings

Post by JSR » Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:34 pm

Wisconsin Coach wrote:I would guess "puckhogI" has no clue on "who is who" in Wisconsin.
(Boys) Tier 1 AAA is Madison Capitols, Wisconsin Fire, Green Bay Gamblers, and Milwaukee Admirals. Team Wisconsin, North Wisc. Blizzards and Phoenix are also Tier 1 AAA with Before and After teams at the Midget level.

As for Spring/Summer AAA there are many teams. I know players on most of them from 93 to 99 age groups. I do not know many hockey people that consider Jr Badgers as the top team at any age level. What age level are you ranking? at different ages there are different teams that are a step or 2 better then the others. you rank without considering Capitols, Admirals, Blizzards, Central Wisc. AAA, N.W. Bucks, Venom, Tundra, Stars, etc....

PuckhogI you need to talk to some different people.
I read what puckhog said and if you re-read he was differentiating the pure B&A teams from the year round tier 1 teams. I interpeted it that he was specifically not listing the Admirals, Gamblers, and Capitols because they are not truly B&A teams, they are year round AAA as opposed to the teams he listed. He did forget the Blizzard at all age levels. I also suspect he left out Teams liek TW because this is a youth hockey board not a high school hockey board which is where Midget and High School teams would be discussed. I do not mean to put words in puckhogs mouth but that is how I took his meaning. As for ranking them, I don't know how you would rank them as each age level seems to be completely different.

JSR
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Post by JSR » Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:57 pm

skilldevelopementguy wrote:JSR,

I guess I became cynical when you apparently edited your post and changed identities. Whatever, its a message board, who knows what anybody around here is representing?

This is just my opinion, but the Monopoly was off their game for large stretches of the semifinal because they were in running time in the first period against the Jr. Badgers and throttled way back for the rest of that game in order to not be jerks. As a result they weren't sharp against the Stars. Then again, we are talking about 8 year olds, how much intensity can I expect? Anyway, I understand that you aren't slighting the Monopoly and that your players were up late. That does have an effect.

In my opinion the stars were the 4th best team in the tourney... behind the hurricanes... and the top 3 are definitely invite calibre in my opinion, and the Stars may be as well.
I know what you are referring to and the original post (which I thought no one had seen) was a poor choice. Sometimes new folks to message boards aren't taken seriously and I just wanted to make a point but then realized I might want to post on here more than once so I realized my error in judgement and as quickly as I could changed my original post to reflect me more accurately. I am sorry about that, poor choice at the time, it happens, I owned up to it and did my best to correct it.

It was my opinion that I thought the two best teams in the in the tournament played for the Championship and deservedly so. I know what you mean when you say "throttle it back" because the Stars had the same thing occur in the game before the semi's against the Minnesota Sting. That game was the second night in a row that they had the 8:30 PM game. My son is normally in bed by 8:30 so those late nigths were really messing with his system all weekend and I can tell you he looked like a barely walking zombie on the ice in that semi final. If both teams played their very best I think the Monopoly would have won the game I just think it would have been more competitive than the final score of that particular game indicated. I know I am biased, but thought our kids would matchup well against the Hurricanes but we'll never know. As for invite caliber, the Stars had 16 skaters and two goalies. I thought one of the two goalies were invite caliber, and I thought about half of our skaters could skate at what you guys consider the invite level, which was the difference against the Monopoly, our top half skated just fine against them but it was the other half that struggled against them.

It was a great experience for the boys though, they all had a wonderful time as did the parents. They all played hard and had some success. The coaches rotated the kids fairly and equitably throughout the enire tournament regardless of situation or score, there was no effort by our coaches to try and deliberately "win" any games. They stayed true to what they told us and that was that this was going to eb a developmental type team and the emphasis was goign to be and try and help all the kids grow as players and the only way for them to do that is to play in all different types of situations and I thought that was great. Judging from other posts on here it appears not all programs take that same approach. I fell lucky that my son had such a great experience, his exact words when it was over was "Dad, that was great, it was the most fun I ever had playing hockey. Can we do this again next year", as a father I can't ask for anything mroe than that, can I?

Wisconsin Coach
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Tier 1 Definition

Post by Wisconsin Coach » Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:01 pm

Some Tier 1 facts, there are more boys and girls playing on Tier 1 teams this season then 5 years ago.

PuckhogI quote "The quality of the lower levels is good indication of how far it has fallen. Most of the younger levels of Tier I in WI could not beat the similar age group Top WAHA Youth Hockey teams." The Madison Capitols 99 team did beat many Top WAHA Squirt teams that were mostly 98 aged players. The GB 98 Gamblers (possibly the weakest AAA Squirt team) beat the WAHA 1A Champions 7-3 and 5-3.

These are all facts!

note to JSR - Tier 1 AAA is only these teams "Madison Capitols, Wisconsin Fire, Green Bay Gamblers, and Milwaukee Admirals. Team Wisconsin, North Wisc. Blizzards and Phoenix" so I think puckhogI used the Tier 1 title incorrectly.

Jr Badgers, Blaze, Blue Devils, Flyers etc are not Tier 1 AAA teams

JSR
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Re: Tier 1 Definition

Post by JSR » Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:22 pm

Wisconsin Coach wrote:Some Tier 1 facts, there are more boys and girls playing on Tier 1 teams this season then 5 years ago.

PuckhogI quote "The quality of the lower levels is good indication of how far it has fallen. Most of the younger levels of Tier I in WI could not beat the similar age group Top WAHA Youth Hockey teams." The Madison Capitols 99 team did beat many Top WAHA Squirt teams that were mostly 98 aged players. The GB 98 Gamblers (possibly the weakest AAA Squirt team) beat the WAHA 1A Champions 7-3 and 5-3.

These are all facts!

note to JSR - Tier 1 AAA is only these teams "Madison Capitols, Wisconsin Fire, Green Bay Gamblers, and Milwaukee Admirals. Team Wisconsin, North Wisc. Blizzards and Phoenix" so I think puckhogI used the Tier 1 title incorrectly.

Jr Badgers, Blaze, Blue Devils, Flyers etc are not Tier 1 AAA teams
I agree that puckhog may have misused terminology but I understood his point. However, I will SLIGHTLY just sort of disagree on one point. That being that the '99 Caps were a really good little team however they did lose handily to all of the "good" Squirt A teams that they played (Winter Club, Fox Valley, Steven Point) and they did not play several of the other good Squirt A teams (ie Polar Caps, Waukesha, etc....) which lends SOME factual credence to what puckhog was saying there, I am not defending him just balancing the point of view if I can. Your point is valid and legitimate as well though. I am just of the opinion (and that is all it is) that playing year round AAA at that age seems a bit too much to me (other parents are free to disagree, that is their rigth). Let them play with their friends and school mates at the club level and encourage a love of the gamee at age 9 and if they are good enough play AAA in the spring on a B&A team. Then at a later age, if they want to and are good enough AND if your club doesn't give you what you need development wise, then try your hand at year round AAA. The problem there being that if your not already "entrenched" with the team from a young age it is almost impossible for them to make a sport on the team even if they are better than the kids that are entrenched (no this hasn't happened to me, my oldest is only 8, I just have seen the politics and it's too bad)

puckhogI
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Post by puckhogI » Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:45 pm

Correct. Tier I in WI is exactly what you note, I was not confused. The other teams/organizations are just spring, summer, fall AAA and are NOT Tier I - just as noted. Sorry for any confusion or misunderstood people.

You are incorrect on the Northern WI Blizzards and the Phoenix, they are Tier II, not Tier I.

Why is it that you don't see the Blue Devils, Flyers, Bucks, Blaze, & others in open tourneys such as the Meltdown? I think you know why.......They are more in line with a 1A-2A team at best and know they can't compete in even an open level bigger tourney in the cities......

I suggest you get your facts straight and get on the golf course rather than blogging all day long......:-(

ThePuckStopsHere
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Re: Tier 1 Definition

Post by ThePuckStopsHere » Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:45 pm

JSR wrote:
Wisconsin Coach wrote:Some Tier 1 facts, there are more boys and girls playing on Tier 1 teams this season then 5 years ago.

PuckhogI quote "The quality of the lower levels is good indication of how far it has fallen. Most of the younger levels of Tier I in WI could not beat the similar age group Top WAHA Youth Hockey teams." The Madison Capitols 99 team did beat many Top WAHA Squirt teams that were mostly 98 aged players. The GB 98 Gamblers (possibly the weakest AAA Squirt team) beat the WAHA 1A Champions 7-3 and 5-3.

These are all facts!

note to JSR - Tier 1 AAA is only these teams "Madison Capitols, Wisconsin Fire, Green Bay Gamblers, and Milwaukee Admirals. Team Wisconsin, North Wisc. Blizzards and Phoenix" so I think puckhogI used the Tier 1 title incorrectly.

Jr Badgers, Blaze, Blue Devils, Flyers etc are not Tier 1 AAA teams
I agree that puckhog may have misused terminology but I understood his point. However, I will SLIGHTLY just sort of disagree on one point. That being that the '99 Caps were a really good little team however they did lose handily to all of the "good" Squirt A teams that they played (Winter Club, Fox Valley, Steven Point) and they did not play several of the other good Squirt A teams (ie Polar Caps, Waukesha, etc....) which lends SOME factual credence to what puckhog was saying there, I am not defending him just balancing the point of view if I can. Your point is valid and legitimate as well though. I am just of the opinion (and that is all it is) that playing year round AAA at that age seems a bit too much to me (other parents are free to disagree, that is their rigth). Let them play with their friends and school mates at the club level and encourage a love of the gamee at age 9 and if they are good enough play AAA in the spring on a B&A team. Then at a later age, if they want to and are good enough AND if your club doesn't give you what you need development wise, then try your hand at year round AAA. The problem there being that if your not already "entrenched" with the team from a young age it is almost impossible for them to make a sport on the team even if they are better than the kids that are entrenched (no this hasn't happened to me, my oldest is only 8, I just have seen the politics and it's too bad)

This is supposed to be a Minnesota Youth Hockey Board, not a Cheese Head Youth Hockey Board.

This post must go! :P

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