98s DEBATE - Easton Cup results stir things up!

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H-E-doublehockeysticks
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98s DEBATE - Easton Cup results stir things up!

Post by H-E-doublehockeysticks » Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:01 pm

What's the deal with the 98s? Just when it looked like all these teams were falling into their pecking order it looks like things just got re-shuffled! The consensus two "top" 98 teams had a rough go of it this weekend!

Machine beaten by a Blades team that was in turmoil in the final. Maybe even better yet - taken taken to task in the opening game (basically a 1 - 0 game) by a team (MN Mix) that came together in a week and had two practices from what I've read in the other columns.

LSS down by 4 to the Mix before waking up (and getting some pretty good help from the refs I heard) and eeking out a victory but later bowing down to the Blades in the semis.

On the other end - Easton Stealth and Synergy - tournaments hosts - finish 7th and 8th and pretty much get SPANKED by everyone (did one of them actually win the 7th place game or did that one end in a tie?). Were there even tryouts for these teams or are they just the coaches' kid's and some of their neighborhood buddies? Embarrassing!

Where did the Mix come from and who do they have? The goalie must have been pretty good to hold to Machine to a couple goals!

imaloserbaby
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Post by imaloserbaby » Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:44 pm

Wow! that is one way to look at it - it is hard to say that The Machine is not still the best (no disrespect to the effort of The Blades) but the gap is closing. If The Blades stay together and can keep smiles on their faces than they will certainly challenge for the top spot and if The Mix stay together than they would have to be considered as one of the top 3 teams. (too bad the 99's are not as interesting of a soap opera as the 98's!!! - I have to go watch the 98's to get my fix of drama - but The Brick can always add some strange dynamics so next year could be interesting for the 99's).

As far as Synergy and Stealth - not sure what to say there but the results kind of do all of the talking I suppose.

countryboy
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not even close

Post by countryboy » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:42 pm

The blades and the machine are the top two with the lss right behind. The mix was not close to the lss as the stars only gave up 7 shots that game and 5 went in. 2 goals were legit and the other three were the result of a very off day for the tender. shots that game were 5 to 1 and the stars had control of the game but did struggle scoring. new and accurate rankings should be
1. Blades - coming together and do have the best depth of talent
2. Machine - they play a pressure game but will struggle with contact in the future
3. LS Stars - up and comer and do have the balance needed to challange both the Blades and Machine, not far behind and contact will be in their favor
4. Deuce - they play the same pressure as the machine but not the skill
5. there is no clear cut five as the rest are a ways back they are in no order

Iceman
Edge
Wings

the showcase type teams such as jr goophers and magicians are not even in the conversation.

Blades look to be very tough as they continue to get better. The real battle will be a LSS - Machine battle and ill take the stars when contact comes into play next summer. If the mix stayed togehter they would battle the Deuce for 4 but they are not close to the other 3.

puckfan
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Post by puckfan » Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:57 pm

Countryboy when you get off the tractor and reality sets in you will find your beloved LSS changing. Your squad will have to play against your best player next year. Now that the coaching change happened with the Blades, he will probably be back with a local team (since he is from the dreaded metro).

Oh did I hear that you are adding a Blades kid for the weekend festivities up Nort? Amazing what you hear while watching at the rink.

Don't sell the Mix short, say wow they did great for a short notice throw together team.

Mix started out hard and fast, played physical with the southern player, then when the stripes started calling penalties (not saying that they shouldn't have been called-but they were not in the begining). LSS took advantage of the power play and scored 4-5 with the man advantage. Guess the coaches should have spent more than 5 minutes of their 2-1/2 hours of practice time on the kill.

What happened in the Semi's?

I've seen the Machine play quite a bit and they will not be affected by the physical play......can't hit what you can't catch :D

H-E-doublehockeysticks
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Post by H-E-doublehockeysticks » Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:34 pm

Countryboy - How was the Mix "not close" to the LSS? Weren't they up 5 - 1 at one point? That sounds like the LSS were not close not the other way around!

One other thing - lumping the Edge and Wings in the same group with the Icemen is completely retarded. Check the records - not even close.

stupidiswhatstupiddoes
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Post by stupidiswhatstupiddoes » Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:46 pm

eventhough they lost the machine is the best. blades are second and for this year lss are third. if lss loses their top player they will not be a top team - sorry, but true (ps: the rule will allow the other teams to check too, not just the lss).

the machine will be the team to beat next year and once the lineups get shuffled who knows where everyone else will be but there probably will be some sort of consolidation of top players. this will challenge the machine and make things more balanced.

not sure if you can put much credence to countryboy if he thinks edge is a top team. magicians and even the miracle would be ahead of them.

i will agree with a previous post and that is look for the top goalies and you will find the top teams. that has been the case with my older son and in the other older age groups as well. along with which teams have a good base of talent and have run their program appropriately. meaning, good teams with clowns for coaches will eventually become exposed and will have significant player turnover.

unlike my older sons age group, the easton teams don't have the same attraction at the 98 level. not sure why that is and the more traditional independents seem to draw the most interest.

there will be one suprise team next season - always is and always will be.

H-E-doublehockeysticks
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Post by H-E-doublehockeysticks » Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:10 pm

Not to say the 98 Machine won't be at or near the top for a while but I think they are going to have some problems in the future. From what I know they are the only Machine team that completely overplays their top line. Ask anyone that has seen them play (heck, ask the parents of the kids on their other two lines). The top line is getting up to 50 - 60% of the playing time at times (and it doesn't matter if they are up by one or 10 goals either). Good teams and coaching will figure it out - they'll find that top line's tendencies and make moves to compensate. Worse yet is the unrest that it is causing within the team. Like I said, the other Machine teams don't operate this way - they all still operate on the "all parts are interchangeable" and pretty much roll the lines. This equates into a more cohesive locker room and parent group.

To me it looks like a recipe for disaster that just keeps building - only a matter of time and this weekend was just the beginning.

Oh, almost forgot - 98 Fire team = preselected kids from the 98 Machine and Deuce. I know of a handful of kids that went to the "open" tryout that were equally or more talented than the kids that are going to be on that team and didn't even get a sniff or the courtesy of a yeah or nay - nice communication! Another reason for turmoil.

council member retired
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Post by council member retired » Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:22 pm

[b]
Oh, almost forgot - 98 Fire team = preselected kids from the 98 Machine and Deuce. I know of a handful of kids that went to the "open" tryout that were equally or more talented than the kids that are going to be on that team and didn't even get a sniff or the courtesy of a yeah or nay - nice communication! Another reason for turmoil.[/quote][/b]


Are you hinting that the person behind the Machine and Wisconsin Fire are in relations, and the Machine person has say on whom is on the WISCONSIN Fire? Otherwise how is there team turmoil when the players on the winter team are the same as your summer team? Sounds like they have kept the outsiders away from their team.

100percenteffort
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Machine Line Equal Play

Post by 100percenteffort » Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:07 am

H-E-doublehockeysticks wrote:Not to say the 98 Machine won't be at or near the top for a while but I think they are going to have some problems in the future. From what I know they are the only Machine team that completely overplays their top line. Ask anyone that has seen them play (heck, ask the parents of the kids on their other two lines). The top line is getting up to 50 - 60% of the playing time at times (and it doesn't matter if they are up by one or 10 goals either). Good teams and coaching will figure it out - they'll find that top line's tendencies and make moves to compensate. Worse yet is the unrest that it is causing within the team. Like I said, the other Machine teams don't operate this way - they all still operate on the "all parts are interchangeable" and pretty much roll the lines. This equates into a more cohesive locker room and parent group.

To me it looks like a recipe for disaster that just keeps building - only a matter of time and this weekend was just the beginning.

Oh, almost forgot - 98 Fire team = preselected kids from the 98 Machine and Deuce. I know of a handful of kids that went to the "open" tryout that were equally or more talented than the kids that are going to be on that team and didn't even get a sniff or the courtesy of a yeah or nay - nice communication! Another reason for turmoil.

All you have to do is watch a Machine game to know they aren't playing everybody let alone equally. Case in point, the 99 Blades/Machine final in the Easton Cup the the third line never saw the ice. Bernie shortened the bench from the first drop of the puck. Puff your chest out Bernie at least the Blades coach can look all of his parents in the eye. Anyway, I thought it was about the development of the kids, evidently not. It looks to me that Bernie was getting tired of losing to the 99 Blades and decided to take matters into his own hands. Way to go Machine for "winning" the Easton Cup.........you deserve it.

100percenteffort
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Post by 100percenteffort » Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:00 pm

Does anyone have an insight as to the roster for the 98 Fire? I'd be interested to see who would actually play with them? BTW, answering a previous post, I'm sure everyone knows the 98 Machine and Fire coach are the same person.

Haute hockeymom
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98s DEBATE - Easton Cup results stir things up!

Post by Haute hockeymom » Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:39 pm

I'll bet the Coach has the insight you are looking for

His contact info is on their site

firehockey.pucksystems2.com
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DuckDuckQuackQuack
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Re: Machine Line Equal Play

Post by DuckDuckQuackQuack » Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:07 am

100percenteffort wrote:
H-E-doublehockeysticks wrote:Not to say the 98 Machine won't be at or near the top for a while but I think they are going to have some problems in the future. From what I know they are the only Machine team that completely overplays their top line. Ask anyone that has seen them play (heck, ask the parents of the kids on their other two lines). The top line is getting up to 50 - 60% of the playing time at times (and it doesn't matter if they are up by one or 10 goals either). Good teams and coaching will figure it out - they'll find that top line's tendencies and make moves to compensate. Worse yet is the unrest that it is causing within the team. Like I said, the other Machine teams don't operate this way - they all still operate on the "all parts are interchangeable" and pretty much roll the lines. This equates into a more cohesive locker room and parent group.

To me it looks like a recipe for disaster that just keeps building - only a matter of time and this weekend was just the beginning.

Oh, almost forgot - 98 Fire team = preselected kids from the 98 Machine and Deuce. I know of a handful of kids that went to the "open" tryout that were equally or more talented than the kids that are going to be on that team and didn't even get a sniff or the courtesy of a yeah or nay - nice communication! Another reason for turmoil.

All you have to do is watch a Machine game to know they aren't playing everybody let alone equally. Case in point, the 99 Blades/Machine final in the Easton Cup the the third line never saw the ice. Bernie shortened the bench from the first drop of the puck. Puff your chest out Bernie at least the Blades coach can look all of his parents in the eye. Anyway, I thought it was about the development of the kids, evidently not. It looks to me that Bernie was getting tired of losing to the 99 Blades and decided to take matters into his own hands. Way to go Machine for "winning" the Easton Cup.........you deserve it.
100% effort- I thought it was everyones goal to win the tourney. Are you telling me at no point in this game did the Blades shorten their bench? I can promise you that the entire Machine team saw plenty of ice time all weekend. Don't think that any of the parents or kids were shocked at this move in the Championship game. I think this is pretty comman knowledge when they accept the invitation to play for the Machine.

Can you tell me do the Blades ever shorten the bench at the Brick tourney? I suppose it depends on what Blades team they bring up there. A, B or C.
Some one told me the Blades are very well known for shuffling players on and off the rosters during the AAA season. Not sure if this is true?
Read my lips I've devoted blood, sweat and tears.

100percenteffort
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Post by 100percenteffort » Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:04 pm

Quack, I don't have a problem with a team "shortening" the bench towards the end of the game when it is on the line, however, when you completely "cut" the bench off from the first drop of the puck and those kids never see the ice that's when the problems come in. All of the kids earned a spot on the team, went through all of the practices, spent all of the money to develop as players and when the game comes they sit at the end of the bench. Tell me how that develops kids to know how to handle game situations and not just be able to excel at a "drill". As far as the Brick goes we'll have to wait until July to see what happens. Regarding the Blades "shuffling" players during the season, there may be some situations where kids leave and spots need to be filled. Seeing kids in a game situation and practice drills are a better way to evaluate them.

DuckDuckQuackQuack
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Post by DuckDuckQuackQuack » Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:46 pm

100percenteffort wrote:Quack, I don't have a problem with a team "shortening" the bench towards the end of the game when it is on the line, however, when you completely "cut" the bench off from the first drop of the puck and those kids never see the ice that's when the problems come in. All of the kids earned a spot on the team, went through all of the practices, spent all of the money to develop as players and when the game comes they sit at the end of the bench. Tell me how that develops kids to know how to handle game situations and not just be able to excel at a "drill". As far as the Brick goes we'll have to wait until July to see what happens. Regarding the Blades "shuffling" players during the season, there may be some situations where kids leave and spots need to be filled. Seeing kids in a game situation and practice drills are a better way to evaluate them.
100%effort- I agree that kids should be able to play in each and every game. With that said each and every parent know exactly what they're getting themselves into by accepting to play for both the Blades and Machine.
One important note: Keep in mind one of these two programs keeps kids on their roster all year long. The other will add and subtract players throughout the season. Which one would you rather have your kids play for?
Don't buy into the notion that Minnesota made actually sits their third line game after game after game. They don't!
It's important that the parents find a good fit for their kids to play AAA hockey. Why set up your kids to play on the third line when they could go one team down and play on the first or second line and play more? And yes when parents accept the invitation to play on these teams they know exactly where their kids fit.
I'll even go out on the limb and say that it's more of a status symbol for some parents to say their kids play for the Blades and Machine. :roll:
In the end I think it's the parents responsibility to make sure their kids are on the right team.
Win as a team and lose as a team. :wink:
Read my lips I've devoted blood, sweat and tears.

100percenteffort
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Post by 100percenteffort » Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:24 pm

Quack, I agree with everything you said except:

One important note: Keep in mind one of these two programs keeps kids on their roster all year long. The other will add and subtract players throughout the season. Which one would you rather have your kids play for?[/quote]

On occasion Blades families decide to leave because of what you described and they feel they will have better opportunities on other AAA teams. As far as I know they are welcome to stay on the roster the whole season. :D

Doglover
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Post by Doglover » Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:00 am

Quacker I think you have your facts mixed up (again). Everyone knows the Blades offer a one year commitment (players and coaches). Changes are made after the end of each season if needed. I don't think it's unusual to add kids to a roster mid season though. Not sure where you get your info - maybe you're just assuming that if a kid doesn't stay on a Blades roster, he was asked to leave. You know what can happen when you assume...

I thought your kid wasn't on the Machine but on one of Bernie's "other" teams - Duece or grinders or whatever they're all called? How would you know how the Machine shorten their bench - from the drop of the puck or later? I think we all agree these teams go to tournaments to win, but shortening the bench from the first period (unless maybe Bernie's strategy was to get ahead early and then let them all play, and that didn't pan out?) is not something most elite players and their families will put up with for very long. No development from getting splinters in your butt my friend and worse yet - no bragging rights for parents :shock: .

DuckDuckQuackQuack
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Post by DuckDuckQuackQuack » Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:28 pm

100percenteffort wrote:Quack, I agree with everything you said except:

One important note: Keep in mind one of these two programs keeps kids on their roster all year long. The other will add and subtract players throughout the season. Which one would you rather have your kids play for?
On occasion Blades families decide to leave because of what you described and they feel they will have better opportunities on other AAA teams. As far as I know they are welcome to stay on the roster the whole season. :D[/quote]

100%- Thanks for clarifying. Both programs are good programs. It's hard to argue which is better. Both do a good job at developing players. To each his own, what works for some might not work for others. I know some kids that love Minnesota made and I know some others that like the Blades program.
Good luck.
Read my lips I've devoted blood, sweat and tears.

HITUHARD
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Post by HITUHARD » Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:14 am

The 98 Blades are the real deal!!!! The guy that is PR (an old Gopher) has many connections & doesent BS. He's not the type of guy who tells you one thing @ you get another. They will go along way just on his thinking!!!

muckandgrind
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Post by muckandgrind » Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:14 am

HITUHARD wrote:The 98 Blades are the real deal!!!! The guy that is PR (an old Gopher) has many connections & doesent BS. He's not the type of guy who tells you one thing @ you get another. They will go along way just on his thinking!!!
I was told by a player's dad that Bellows won't be back next summer on the bench. Is that true? If so, how does that affect the team?

Haute hockeymom
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98s DEBATE - Easton Cup results stir things up!

Post by Haute hockeymom » Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:18 am

I was told by a player's dad that Bellows won't be back next summer on the bench. Is that true? If so, how does that affect the team?[/quote]

It means their best player from '07 will return after spending '08 with Easton and LSS
Everytime I think I'm out, they pull me back in

MGHockey12
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Re: 98s DEBATE - Easton Cup results stir things up!

Post by MGHockey12 » Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:35 am

Haute hockeymom wrote:I was told by a player's dad that Bellows won't be back next summer on the bench. Is that true? If so, how does that affect the team?
It means their best player from '07 will return after spending '08 with Easton and LSS[/quote]


...really

HITUHARD
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Post by HITUHARD » Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:36 am

Yep, HH is right on.

muckandgrind
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Re: 98s DEBATE - Easton Cup results stir things up!

Post by muckandgrind » Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:14 am

MGHockey12 wrote:
Haute hockeymom wrote:I was told by a player's dad that Bellows won't be back next summer on the bench. Is that true? If so, how does that affect the team?
It means their best player from '07 will return after spending '08 with Easton and LSS

...really[/quote]

Fill me in. Was there an issue between BB and that player/family that caused the kid to go somewhere else this past summer?

I'm not extremely close to the situation, but the parent I know had nothing but good things to say about Bellows.

100percenteffort
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Post by 100percenteffort » Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:01 am

Let's just say that the 98 Blades are in a much better situation this coming year than they were a year ago for a lot of different reasons. Taking nothing away from the time, effort and expertise of the previous coaching staff, having a non parent coach is the way to go for this particular team. :D

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