Hill-Murray Update

[BlueLineSpecial]

https://www.stateofhockey.com/news_article/show/1155284

Per the article, "The complaint states that if the boys are unable to compete, they will suffer irreparable harm"
I get it, it sucks. But suffer irreparable harm? I have a kid on the Centennial girls team. Last week was tough, really tough for them. But I don't see that it's suffering irreparable harm to my kid. She's doing ok. I'm guessing the HM boys will be ok too.

That's the standard that has to be met for a TRO to issue.

You would be surprised how low the bar is for a lot of orders.

Yup. And actually they seem to have done quite a good job of arguing irreparable harm. Citing Charlie Strobel from last year is brilliant. Charlie only got a scholarship after his fantastic performance at the tourney. They also apparently had former NHL scouts and players cite the value of playing in a tournament. Keep in mind too that irreparable harm doesn't need to be monetary either. It can be harm from taking away a once-in-a-lifetime experience for example.

[BodyShots]

I'm starting to like HT more and HM even less than I already do. Bringing lawyers into High School sports.

[Lace'emUp]

Per the article, "The complaint states that if the boys are unable to compete, they will suffer irreparable harm"
I get it, it sucks. But suffer irreparable harm? I have a kid on the Centennial girls team. Last week was tough, really tough for them. But I don't see that it's suffering irreparable harm to my kid. She's doing ok. I'm guessing the HM boys will be ok too.

That's the standard that has to be met for a TRO to issue.

You would be surprised how low the bar is for a lot of orders.

Yup. And actually they seem to have done quite a good job of arguing irreparable harm. Citing Charlie Strobel from last year is brilliant. Charlie only got a scholarship after his fantastic performance at the tourney. They also apparently had former NHL scouts and players cite the value of playing in a tournament. Keep in mind too that irreparable harm doesn't need to be monetary either. It can be harm from taking away a once-in-a-lifetime experience for example.

Thank you for explaining the reasons why the legal brief is stating arguments such as "irreparable harm". That part makes sense to me now, especially if that's all that's needed to issue a TRO. Truthfully, not just for the boys tournament, but for the girls too, and even basketball, I would think a TRO would also save the MSHSL from further embarrassments with their ever-changing standards and policies. Let everyone go home, practices for 2 weeks, then come back and play. Maybe this even gives the MSHSL a chance to solve/correct the Edina vs Centennial girls game, and figure out a way for them to play? Likewise, we don't need JV players covering for varsity players, or any more forfeits. This is turning into a HUGE black eye for the MSHSL.

[Sparlimb]

Its also interesting to wonder what WBL had to provide to prove it. Could a kid just say he was positive? Does he have to show proof? Not saying that's what happened. I know nothing. But I wonder where HIPAA laws take over.

[BlueLineSpecial]

Its also interesting to wonder what WBL had to provide to prove it. Could a kid just say he was positive? Does he have to show proof? Not saying that's what happened. I know nothing. But I wonder where HIPAA laws take over.

I'd be shocked if they made it up, and don't believe that to be the case. But at least some of the language in Hill's suit seem to imply nothing at all was provided to prove the positive case. From the article I linked to, it states that Hill has requested documentation in writing and hasn't received it yet?

Okay cool well if that's the case then anyone could just call up the MDH and MSHSL and report that Rosemount, Lakeville North, Grand Rapids, Benilde, Roseau and Centennial had a positive case since section finals. Tourney cancelled.

[Eagles93]

The MSHSL has a lot that it can improve and I think there are things they can change to make for a better experience for the players. (And of much less importance, a better product.) But I will defend them in this situation. I feel horrible for Hill-Murray and Hermantown. (And Centennial girls, and Mankato East and Farmington and Shakopee and every other team that had their season end prematurely.) But to blame the MSHSL for this is not fair. A lawsuit is ridiculous and if anyone gets a "black eye" it is Hill-Murray or the parents or whomever is behind it.

The MSHSL laid out the dates, procedures, etc. well in advance of the playoffs and state tourney. We've known the dates for a long time. We've known the COVID-19 protocols and what is required for quarantining in the event of potential exposure since the season started. (I disagree with some of those protocols but I don't blame the MSHSL for that.) Did anyone file a lawsuit back in February about the protocols or the need to quarantine and cancel or forfeit games? Did the Hill-Murray parents fight for Farmington or Centennial or any of the other teams? It's very generous of Wayzata to offer to play the game Thursday but come on, blame the MSHSL for not deviating from their work to stage the tournament? It sets a very bad precedent, in my opinion, to make exceptions like this. Pushing the tournament out two weeks also deviates from their normal procedures to end one season (Winter) and start the next (Spring) season. I get we're in an unprecedented time this year but this is no different than the many other teams that faced the same fate this year. Send your JV team (a la Mankato East, Farmington, and Hermantown) if you can or forfeit the game, Hill-Murray.

Again, the MSHSL has a lot to improve on, but let's not blame this one on them.

[Stang5280]

Per the article, "The complaint states that if the boys are unable to compete, they will suffer irreparable harm"
I get it, it sucks. But suffer irreparable harm? I have a kid on the Centennial girls team. Last week was tough, really tough for them. But I don't see that it's suffering irreparable harm to my kid. She's doing ok. I'm guessing the HM boys will be ok too.

That's the standard that has to be met for a TRO to issue.

You would be surprised how low the bar is for a lot of orders.

Yup. And actually they seem to have done quite a good job of arguing irreparable harm. Citing Charlie Strobel from last year is brilliant. Charlie only got a scholarship after his fantastic performance at the tourney. They also apparently had former NHL scouts and players cite the value of playing in a tournament. Keep in mind too that irreparable harm doesn't need to be monetary either. It can be harm from taking away a once-in-a-lifetime experience for example.

To be clear, the applicable legal standard for a TRO, as covered by Minnesota Rule of Civil Procedure 65.01, requires the applicant to demonstrate immediate and irreparable harm. It’s venturing into awfully speculative territory to argue that players, most of whom have been on scouts’ radars for some time now, are missing out on potential college scholarships and professional contracts.

[Gov78]

That's the standard that has to be met for a TRO to issue.

You would be surprised how low the bar is for a lot of orders.

Yup. And actually they seem to have done quite a good job of arguing irreparable harm. Citing Charlie Strobel from last year is brilliant. Charlie only got a scholarship after his fantastic performance at the tourney. They also apparently had former NHL scouts and players cite the value of playing in a tournament. Keep in mind too that irreparable harm doesn't need to be monetary either. It can be harm from taking away a once-in-a-lifetime experience for example.

Thank you for explaining the reasons why the legal brief is stating arguments such as "irreparable harm". That part makes sense to me now, especially if that's all that's needed to issue a TRO. Truthfully, not just for the boys tournament, but for the girls too, and even basketball, I would think a TRO would also save the MSHSL from further embarrassments with their ever-changing standards and policies. Let everyone go home, practices for 2 weeks, then come back and play. Maybe this even gives the MSHSL a chance to solve/correct the Edina vs Centennial girls game, and figure out a way for them to play? Likewise, we don't need JV players covering for varsity players, or any more forfeits. This is turning into a HUGE black eye for the MSHSL.

Curious regarding that this lawsuit was filed on behalf of the players (students) and the team/school at least stating they support this or more so a party in the lawsuit as it's the team being disqualified not any individuals.

[BlueLineSpecial]

The MSHSL has a lot that it can improve and I think there are things they can change to make for a better experience for the players. (And of much less importance, a better product.) But I will defend them in this situation. I feel horrible for Hill-Murray and Hermantown. (And Centennial girls, and Mankato East and Farmington and Shakopee and every other team that had their season end prematurely.) But to blame the MSHSL for this is not fair. A lawsuit is ridiculous and if anyone gets a "black eye" it is Hill-Murray or the parents or whomever is behind it.

The MSHSL laid out the dates, procedures, etc. well in advance of the playoffs and state tourney. We've known the dates for a long time. We've known the COVID-19 protocols and what is required for quarantining in the event of potential exposure since the season started. (I disagree with some of those protocols but I don't blame the MSHSL for that.) Did anyone file a lawsuit back in February about the protocols or the need to quarantine and cancel or forfeit games? Did the Hill-Murray parents fight for Farmington or Centennial or any of the other teams? It's very generous of Wayzata to offer to play the game Thursday but come on, blame the MSHSL for not deviating from their work to stage the tournament? It sets a very bad precedent, in my opinion, to make exceptions like this. Pushing the tournament out two weeks also deviates from their normal procedures to end one season (Winter) and start the next (Spring) season. I get we're in an unprecedented time this year but this is no different than the many other teams that faced the same fate this year. Send your JV team (a la Mankato East, Farmington, and Hermantown) if you can or forfeit the game, Hill-Murray.

Again, the MSHSL has a lot to improve on, but let's not blame this one on them.

Not necessarily arguing any of your points. But Hill can't file a lawsuit on behalf of Mankato East showing irreparable harm to Hill. That would be Mankato East's burden. Or Centennial's or Farmington's, etc. Filing a lawsuit back in February for the rules set in place wouldn't work because you couldn't show irreparable harm without harm having taking place yet. Finally, most of the teams in sections that had to forfeit had to forfeit based on the inability to adjust the future and imminent other games. That isn't the case here. There is an easy and already agreed upon fix to adjust by 1 day. Zero disruptions to future games.

MSHSL has made all sorts of exceptions and adjustments this year. Season starting late, season condensed, tourney attendance adjustments on the fly, etc. So with all the above stated and the impossibility to compare apples to apples with the other situations people are citing, I really don't see the big deal in moving the game back 1 day. Thats my two cents.

Regarding any black eyes, I guess I'm just not all that worried about it. I have gotten more rude comments, underhanded shots, outright vitriol and plenty of other sh!& on this board and many other places for my attendance at Hill and for my fandom of the team. So add it to the list. Most people that dislike Hill weren't suddenly going to change their mind if Hill just went quietly into the night on this. And this isn't going to demonstrably make anyone else who liked Hill suddenly dislike them. So the haters will hate and the fans will continue to root. Net positive or negative change to those opinions will be either (a) shortlived or (b) non-existent

I say just let the kids play Thursday. Big whoop. If or when Hill loses half the board can celebrate and make snide comments like 'sheesh I hope all that trouble was worth a loss'. And if they go on to win it all, it'll just add a little wood to the already white-hot hate most have for Hill anyway. Whats an extra log amongst enemies.

[BlueLineSpecial]

That's the standard that has to be met for a TRO to issue.

You would be surprised how low the bar is for a lot of orders.

Yup. And actually they seem to have done quite a good job of arguing irreparable harm. Citing Charlie Strobel from last year is brilliant. Charlie only got a scholarship after his fantastic performance at the tourney. They also apparently had former NHL scouts and players cite the value of playing in a tournament. Keep in mind too that irreparable harm doesn't need to be monetary either. It can be harm from taking away a once-in-a-lifetime experience for example.

To be clear, the applicable legal standard for a TRO, as covered by Minnesota Rule of Civil Procedure 65.01, requires the applicant to demonstrate immediate and irreparable harm. It’s venturing into awfully speculative territory to argue that players, most of whom have been on scouts’ radars for some time now, are missing out on potential college scholarships and professional contracts.

Not speculative at all. As I mentioned in my post you quoted, irreparable harm doesn't need to be monetary. So scholarships and professional contracts are a single argument out of a collective of arguments that make up their claim.

[InThePipes]

Remember that it's the MDH who is "recommending" quarantines, the MSHSL (and others like MN Hockey) have mandated that those "recommendations" be followed. That this happened should really surprise nobody, people have been talking about this possibility (on podcasts and in bars and lobbies) for months.

[thestickler07]

That's the standard that has to be met for a TRO to issue.

You would be surprised how low the bar is for a lot of orders.

Yup. And actually they seem to have done quite a good job of arguing irreparable harm. Citing Charlie Strobel from last year is brilliant. Charlie only got a scholarship after his fantastic performance at the tourney. They also apparently had former NHL scouts and players cite the value of playing in a tournament. Keep in mind too that irreparable harm doesn't need to be monetary either. It can be harm from taking away a once-in-a-lifetime experience for example.

To be clear, the applicable legal standard for a TRO, as covered by Minnesota Rule of Civil Procedure 65.01, requires the applicant to demonstrate immediate and irreparable harm. It’s venturing into awfully speculative territory to argue that players, most of whom have been on scouts’ radars for some time now, are missing out on potential college scholarships and professional contracts.

It really isn't though.

You could easily get affidavits from tens if not hundreds of former high school players that would attest to similar sentiments as stated previously in this thread. Hell, you could probably work up a compelling argument just from video clips of old MSHSL promos talking about the "uniqueness" and "special" exposure of the high school hockey tournament.

[Stang5280]

Yup. And actually they seem to have done quite a good job of arguing irreparable harm. Citing Charlie Strobel from last year is brilliant. Charlie only got a scholarship after his fantastic performance at the tourney. They also apparently had former NHL scouts and players cite the value of playing in a tournament. Keep in mind too that irreparable harm doesn't need to be monetary either. It can be harm from taking away a once-in-a-lifetime experience for example.

To be clear, the applicable legal standard for a TRO, as covered by Minnesota Rule of Civil Procedure 65.01, requires the applicant to demonstrate immediate and irreparable harm. It’s venturing into awfully speculative territory to argue that players, most of whom have been on scouts’ radars for some time now, are missing out on potential college scholarships and professional contracts.

Not speculative at all. As I mentioned in my post you quoted, irreparable harm doesn't need to be monetary. So scholarships and professional contracts are a single argument out of a collective of arguments that make up their claim.

I understand that and probably should have addressed that point. To me, the experiential factor is the stronger portion of the argument, as compared to any scouting exposure. We’ll see if any of this gains traction with the court

[BlueLineSpecial]

To be clear, the applicable legal standard for a TRO, as covered by Minnesota Rule of Civil Procedure 65.01, requires the applicant to demonstrate immediate and irreparable harm. It’s venturing into awfully speculative territory to argue that players, most of whom have been on scouts’ radars for some time now, are missing out on potential college scholarships and professional contracts.

Not speculative at all. As I mentioned in my post you quoted, irreparable harm doesn't need to be monetary. So scholarships and professional contracts are a single argument out of a collective of arguments that make up their claim.

I understand that and probably should have addressed that point. To me, the experiential factor is the stronger portion of the argument, as compared to any scouting exposure. We’ll see if any of this gains traction with the court

I think they (apparently) did a good job of citing both. No one can argue the Charlie Strobel exposure thing. He literally didn't have a scholarship until his breakout performance at State. They (apparently) also having affidavits from scouts but also from former NHLers who say that the memories and value from playing in this tourney outweigh their college and stanley cup titles. So whomever filed this suit did a nice job arguing multiple angles. Financial, experience of a lifetime, etc.

I have no idea where this will go, but I've seen all sorts of restraining orders and other various injunctions, and this one carries weight. Legit weight. Should be an interesting next few hours

[goldy313]

Has any Minnesota court struck down any of the state’s executive branch orders, guidelines, directives, etc. under Walz’s emergency powers?

Let them play Minnesota lost numerous times.

My idea would be for Hill-Murray to show up at their scheduled time and force the MSHSL/MDH to do something. That is what baseball did.

[Eagles93]

Not necessarily arguing any of your points. But Hill can't file a lawsuit on behalf of Mankato East showing irreparable harm to Hill. That would be Mankato East's burden. Or Centennial's or Farmington's, etc. Filing a lawsuit back in February for the rules set in place wouldn't work because you couldn't show irreparable harm without harm having taking place yet. Finally, most of the teams in sections that had to forfeit had to forfeit based on the inability to adjust the future and imminent other games. That isn't the case here. There is an easy and already agreed upon fix to adjust by 1 day. Zero disruptions to future games.

MSHSL has made all sorts of exceptions and adjustments this year. Season starting late, season condensed, tourney attendance adjustments on the fly, etc. So with all the above stated and the impossibility to compare apples to apples with the other situations people are citing, I really don't see the big deal in moving the game back 1 day. Thats my two cents.

Regarding any black eyes, I guess I'm just not all that worried about it. I have gotten more rude comments, underhanded shots, outright vitriol and plenty of other sh!& on this board and many other places for my attendance at Hill and for my fandom of the team. So add it to the list. Most people that dislike Hill weren't suddenly going to change their mind if Hill just went quietly into the night on this. And this isn't going to demonstrably make anyone else who liked Hill suddenly dislike them. So the haters will hate and the fans will continue to root. Net positive or negative change to those opinions will be either (a) shortlived or (b) non-existent

I say just let the kids play Thursday. Big whoop. If or when Hill loses half the board can celebrate and make snide comments like 'sheesh I hope all that trouble was worth a loss'. And if they go on to win it all, it'll just add a little wood to the already white-hot hate most have for Hill anyway. Whats an extra log amongst enemies.

My post wasn't necessarily directed at you, except for the "black eye" comment. Lots of people seem to be bashing the MSHSL. I don't dislike Hill-Murray more than any other team. (I hate Edina, but who doesn't? ) I disagree with teams like Hermantown and Breck girls getting a free pass to state every year in class A but I'll avoid that dead horse.

Again, it sounds "easy" to move the game to Thursday, but a few things come to mind. Where is the game played? Plymouth? Don't the Wayzata kids then miss out on the experience of playing in the state tourney at the X? Will all of the scouts even go to this game? Does channel 45 somehow get a crew out on a moment's notice to televise the game? Do they show that game instead of the girls games?

[BlueLineSpecial]

Not necessarily arguing any of your points. But Hill can't file a lawsuit on behalf of Mankato East showing irreparable harm to Hill. That would be Mankato East's burden. Or Centennial's or Farmington's, etc. Filing a lawsuit back in February for the rules set in place wouldn't work because you couldn't show irreparable harm without harm having taking place yet. Finally, most of the teams in sections that had to forfeit had to forfeit based on the inability to adjust the future and imminent other games. That isn't the case here. There is an easy and already agreed upon fix to adjust by 1 day. Zero disruptions to future games.

MSHSL has made all sorts of exceptions and adjustments this year. Season starting late, season condensed, tourney attendance adjustments on the fly, etc. So with all the above stated and the impossibility to compare apples to apples with the other situations people are citing, I really don't see the big deal in moving the game back 1 day. Thats my two cents.

Regarding any black eyes, I guess I'm just not all that worried about it. I have gotten more rude comments, underhanded shots, outright vitriol and plenty of other sh!& on this board and many other places for my attendance at Hill and for my fandom of the team. So add it to the list. Most people that dislike Hill weren't suddenly going to change their mind if Hill just went quietly into the night on this. And this isn't going to demonstrably make anyone else who liked Hill suddenly dislike them. So the haters will hate and the fans will continue to root. Net positive or negative change to those opinions will be either (a) shortlived or (b) non-existent

I say just let the kids play Thursday. Big whoop. If or when Hill loses half the board can celebrate and make snide comments like 'sheesh I hope all that trouble was worth a loss'. And if they go on to win it all, it'll just add a little wood to the already white-hot hate most have for Hill anyway. Whats an extra log amongst enemies.

My post wasn't necessarily directed at you, except for the "black eye" comment. Lots of people seem to be bashing the MSHSL. I don't dislike Hill-Murray more than any other team. (I hate Edina, but who doesn't? ) I disagree with teams like Hermantown and Breck girls getting a free pass to state every year in class A but I'll avoid that dead horse.

Again, it sounds "easy" to move the game to Thursday, but a few things come to mind. Where is the game played? Plymouth? Don't the Wayzata kids then miss out on the experience of playing in the state tourney at the X? Will all of the scouts even go to this game? Does channel 45 somehow get a crew out on a moment's notice to televise the game? Do they show that game instead of the girls games?

I know it wasn't necessarily directed at me. Just throwing out my opinions on some your points. Mostly I'm just saddened and frustrated by all of this. I'm so tired of Covid, and quarantining and worrying. And watching Hill play this year was a positive outlet and something I looked forward to each week. And not just Hill. I watched more non-Hill games (online) this year than any other year, possibly combined. I feel dejected, because even if this suit is successful, which I sort of think it will be, some of the shine has been taken off of this experience. Which is already tarnished before all of this with no fans, condensed schedules, teams missing their opportunity to continue playing in sections, etc. So yeah, this all sucks.

There would need to be a lot of parts moved quickly to make it work. Refs, scoreboard folks, TV crew (they can set up real quickly IMO), and lots of other considerations. But I believe its worth a try. As I understand it, every other AA team in the tourney is willing to work with Hill and others to make this experience happen. Collectively there is no doubt in my mind this can work. For heaven's sake, I'll throw in my volunteerism to help get it off the ground, and I'm sure many others would too.

[OldManRiver]

Has any Minnesota court struck down any of the state’s executive branch orders, guidelines, directives, etc. under Walz’s emergency powers?

I feel like this is the area where the legal argument runs into some difficulty. In a normal year, I would certainly expect that framing the "irreparable harm" of not being allowed to participate would make it through without issue. However, when you frame this against the potential and unknown "irreparable harm" to people exposed to Covid-19, this becomes a much murkier issue.

[BlueLineSpecial]

Has any Minnesota court struck down any of the state’s executive branch orders, guidelines, directives, etc. under Walz’s emergency powers?

I feel like this is the area where the legal argument runs into some difficulty. In a normal year, I would certainly expect that framing the "irreparable harm" of not being allowed to participate would make it through without issue. However, when you frame this against the potential and unknown "irreparable harm" to people exposed to Covid-19, this becomes a much murkier issue.

But Hill, at least as it stands now, has not had anyone with (a) symptoms (b) a positive test and (c) by Thursday they would have quarantined for the recommended 7 days. So the counter argument to irreparable harm doesn't carry much weight.

[InThePipes]

Has any Minnesota court struck down any of the state’s executive branch orders, guidelines, directives, etc. under Walz’s emergency powers?

I feel like this is the area where the legal argument runs into some difficulty. In a normal year, I would certainly expect that framing the "irreparable harm" of not being allowed to participate would make it through without issue. However, when you frame this against the potential and unknown "irreparable harm" to people exposed to Covid-19, this becomes a much murkier issue.

But Hill, at least as it stands now, has not had anyone with (a) symptoms (b) a positive test and (c) by Thursday they would have quarantined for the recommended 7 days. So the counter argument to irreparable harm doesn't carry much weight.

As with everything related to the pandemic nowadays, just stop and think about the logic being employed here...you can't play Wednesday, but come Thursday then everything is fine! It's all completely arbitrary (and frustrating). The difference in relative risk of anything beyond 5 days is in the single digit %'s and gets down to decimal point %'s once you get beyond 10 days.

[north_bear]

Remember that it's the MDH who is "recommending" quarantines, the MSHSL (and others like MN Hockey) have mandated that those "recommendations" be followed. That this happened should really surprise nobody, people have been talking about this possibility (on podcasts and in bars and lobbies) for months.

I think the lawsuit has some merit but I think it will be challenging to have a court rule against the MDH guidelines and protocols that the MSHSL has been using all year. Warm up the JV.

[O-townClown]

Is it fair to say the issue is being approached from multiple angles?

• 1. School is looking to MDH for clarification on their guidelines and intent
  2. School is appealing to MSHSL and asking the natural questions about the allegation
  3. An attorney has brought a case on behalf of 9 adult seniors in hopes of getting a temporary injunction

Given the lack of detail on the player who supposedly tested positive I have no issue with people looking into their options here. A call on Sunday saying you're out seems sudden and heavy handed. This isn't like the college teams in hockey and basketball that got nuked; Hill-Murray has no positive tests from what we know.

[Slap Shot]

If you didn't have reason to root against Hill Murray before today....

[thestickler07]

If you didn't have reason to root against Hill Murray before today....

This whole episode has made me like HM a lot more - the MSHSL are a bunch of bums for trying to keep them out.

[Slap Shot]

If you didn't have reason to root against Hill Murray before today....

This whole episode has made me like HM a lot more - the MSHSL are a bunch of bums for trying to keep them out.