hockeyjacques wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:49 am
If you look at Mahtomedi's roster this year and the past few years, they also have players from several communities. So nice try with the blaming because they are private. A top program private or public, in both A and AA don't need to recruit. Players show up because they want to be a part of a winning program with strong players. Players leave top programs also if they are say 3rd line and move to communities where they will get top line action (see 2 transfers on Maht). The narrative on this forum of top programs recruiting is really old. Also the poor Maht sediment on this particular one is ironic considering the number of players that have moved in to play for this school for over a decade.
And this is the problem in Class A: in metro areas, players can "choose" which program they want to play at. This is not a luxury that an actual outstate community team has, and is why city teams have dominated Class A.
And a certain top northern program absolutely does recruit. Just head over to that thread if you want details.
I referred back to my comments on page 1 of this thread
- Gentry is a charter school
-They have a really good team
- Nothing unusual about out of district kids nowadays
-Nice to see some additional HTown , and east side competition
- They just beat their arguably biggest rival
- Moving up to AA next year
-What’s wrong with that?
- Rainer is absolutely right about most outstate kids having less options, but you can’t point the finger at Gentry varsity kids to solve that can you? All they want to do is play hockey
- btw , Never followed them or watched them until this year, so I have no past interest or association , but it’s been a heckofa fun ride and people have been very open and welcoming
WestMetro wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:49 pm
I referred back to my comments on page 1 of this thread
- Gentry is a charter school
-They have a really good team
- Nothing unusual about out of district kids nowadays
-Nice to see some additional HTown , and east side competition - They just beat their arguably biggest rival
- Moving up to AA next year
-What’s wrong with that?
- Rainer is absolutely right about most outstate kids having less options, but you can’t point the finger at Gentry varsity kids to solve that can you? All they want to do is play hockey
- btw , Never followed them or watched them until this year, so I have no past interest or association , but it’s been a heckofa fun ride and people have been very open and welcoming
Whom they had never played until yesterday? Hard to call that a rivalry for either side. I have nothing personal against Gentry, but for all practical purposes they are just passing through Class A, and perhaps making a mockery of this season’s tournament in the process.
Stang- they just beat their nearby East Side A class state champ?
I mean call it what you want- we all know that’s what’s been coming back to the beginning of the season
I mean what’s wrong with new programs, and what’s wrong with having quick success ?
WestMetro wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:15 pm
Stang- they just beat their nearby East Side A class state champ?
I mean call it what you want- we all know that’s what’s been coming back to the beginning of the season
I mean what’s wrong with new programs, and what’s wrong with having quick success ?
Westy...I think the challenge many of us have is that Minnesota high school hockey is based around the community model. Now obviously, the foundation of that model has been slowly being chipped away at since open-enrollment came on the scene. However, what Gentry is doing is a flat out slap in the face to the very core principles of that model. If the "owners" of Gentry want to compete by recruiting kids from all around the entire state and country, along with charging kids 10K to attend their "school", as well as allow kids to work on their hockey for more than 3 hours a day as part of their "schooling", then there is a current development model already in place for an entity like that. It's called "Juniors".
Although other privates and publics occasionally recruit players from outside their geographic boundaries, or occasionally bend or break some of the rules in doing so, for the most part the majority of the kids playing were developed/enrolled thru the community based model. Don't get me wrong, ANY school caught breaking the rules should be treated the same and face whatever punishment the MSHSL's guidebook lays out. However, in my opinion, what Gentry is doing flies completely in the face of what community-based high school athletics should be about. Now, credit to them for already committing to go up to AA -- if in fact that's the case. Still, what they're doing and how they're doing it, just doesn't sit well with us "traditionalists"
WestMetro wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:49 pm
I referred back to my comments on page 1 of this thread
- Gentry is a charter school
-They have a really good team
- Nothing unusual about out of district kids nowadays
-Nice to see some additional HTown , and east side competition
- They just beat their arguably biggest rival
- Moving up to AA next year
-What’s wrong with that?
- Rainer is absolutely right about most outstate kids having less options, but you can’t point the finger at Gentry varsity kids to solve that can you? All they want to do is play hockey
- btw , Never followed them or watched them until this year, so I have no past interest or association , but it’s been a heckofa fun ride and people have been very open and welcoming
Any idea what section and conference Gentry will land in?
Last edited by SEC Scotty on Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
SEC Scotty wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:16 pm
Any idea watch section and conference Gentry will land in?
It would pretty much have to be 4AA and remaining as an independent. The only other competitive sports offered are baseball and lacrosse, and the MSHSL lists Gentry’s enrollment as a whopping 93 for the upcoming 2021-22 cycle. Unless they receive an invitation as a hockey-only affiliate, Gentry is a weird fit for conferences.
WestMetro wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:15 pm
Stang- they just beat their nearby East Side A class state champ?
I mean call it what you want- we all know that’s what’s been coming back to the beginning of the season
I mean what’s wrong with new programs, and what’s wrong with having quick success ?
I think quick success is great, and I begrudge no city program the chance to gain momentum in Class A; that's why it's great to see them already going up to AA. (if that's true)
Like WOM, I'm also not a huge fan of the "get players from everywhere" model, but to me it's just the logical extension of what's been happening in MN HS hockey for a while: talent will just keep getting more and more concentrated at fewer and fewer places as those "strong" programs are able to "attract" more talent.
If nothing else, at least Gentry's success shows how absolutely meaningless the enrollment number is for a city team.
Congrats to Gentry and their hockey players for making their first state hockey tournament. It sickens me that any grown adult would say anything other than a congratulations to these kids. You sound like 5th grade recess soar losers. Good luck at state Gentry! GB
GoldenBear wrote: ↑Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:48 am
Congrats to Gentry and their hockey players for making their first state hockey tournament. It sickens me that any grown adult would say anything other than a congratulations to these kids. You sound like 5th grade recess sore losers. Good luck at state Gentry! GB
Congrats to the ???
I don’t know their mascot.
So congrats, Gents.
GoldenBear wrote: ↑Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:48 am
Congrats to Gentry and their hockey players for making their first state hockey tournament. It sickens me that any grown adult would say anything other than a congratulations to these kids. You sound like 5th grade recess sore losers. Good luck at state Gentry! GB
Congrats to the ???
I don’t know their mascot.
So congrats, Gents.
Stars, I looked it up.
I like the Gents.
I send my congrats to The Stars as well. Good luck to Gentry.
Rails Hockey wrote: ↑Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:50 am
What is the Scouting Report on Gentry? Do they have any big, strong forwards? Joey Pierce tossed kids around like Rag Dolls last night,
Who has a good Scouting Report on Gentry?
I only saw them one game vs. Blake. I am sure they have a few guys that can handle themselves.
They are very fast, play as a unit, will kill you in transition if you turn it over, and they float a forward behind the defense. Dmen all like to join on line rushes.
The best attribute I thought were the defenseman's retrievals, first passes (right on the tape), and how clean they get out of their zone.
Yes they do have big physical kids. With speed . And they do play a section 7/8 style of hockey . Know how to finish their checks . Joe Cullen is the coach .
Added: Top 5 scorers are 6’1, 6’1, 6’0 , 6’0, 5’11
Last edited by WestMetro on Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rails Hockey wrote: ↑Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:50 am
What is the Scouting Report on Gentry? Do they have any big, strong forwards? Joey Pierce tossed kids around like Rag Dolls last night,
Who has a good Scouting Report on Gentry?
I only saw them one game vs. Blake. I am sure they have a few guys that can handle themselves.
They are very fast, play as a unit, will kill you in transition if you turn it over, and they float a forward behind the defense. Dmen all like to join on line rushes.
The best attribute I thought were the defenseman's retrievals, first passes (right on the tape), and how clean they get out of their zone.
That is a pretty good summary. Gentry’s forwards aren’t huge, but they are strong on their skates and the team as a whole doesn’t shy away from physical contact (in fact they can be very physical at times).
The forecheck is absolutely relentless, and Gentry has tons of depth. There is basically no difference between the top two lines, and the third line is better than most teams’ second units. Special teams are great, particularly the PK (93.3%). Gentry keeps the pressure on when they are a man down and I have seen them score tons of shorthanded goals, even against solid teams like LF and Breck.
The teamwork and ice vision are so impressive; you can tell these kids spend a ton of time together on the ice. You almost never find yourself begging them to hit the open man because they are already thinking two steps ahead. Gentry is almost scary good, and I would strongly favor them over EGF in the semis.
hockeyjacques wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:49 am
If you look at Mahtomedi's roster this year and the past few years, they also have players from several communities. So nice try with the blaming because they are private. A top program private or public, in both A and AA don't need to recruit. Players show up because they want to be a part of a winning program with strong players. Players leave top programs also if they are say 3rd line and move to communities where they will get top line action (see 2 transfers on Maht). The narrative on this forum of top programs recruiting is really old. Also the poor Maht sediment on this particular one is ironic considering the number of players that have moved in to play for this school for over a decade.
This falls into the not-letting-the-facts-get-in-the-way-of-a-good-story category. To suggest Mahtomedi is systemically benefiting from incoming "top program" transfers is nonsense. While there may be an occasional student transfer into the program, they're net exporters. The more meaningful hockey-related challenge is the decades-long history of finding at least one of the better homegrown Mahtomedi players on Hill Murray's roster.
The fact that an actual community program like Mahtomedi (or insert any reasonably successful community based program) can compete with the likes of STA and Hill Murray is the real narrative. These private schools' entire programs are subsidized on the backs of the community programs from which they plunder the best players. And then they celebrate championships and pat themselves on the back after assembling their all star teams and defeating the very community programs from which their rosters were built.
It is what it is. And it is what it has been for a long time. But you won't find me advocating for what a school like Gentry represents. In fact, I happen to believe programs like Gentry are slowly dismantling community hockey programs.
hockeyjacques wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:49 am
If you look at Mahtomedi's roster this year and the past few years, they also have players from several communities. So nice try with the blaming because they are private. A top program private or public, in both A and AA don't need to recruit. Players show up because they want to be a part of a winning program with strong players. Players leave top programs also if they are say 3rd line and move to communities where they will get top line action (see 2 transfers on Maht). The narrative on this forum of top programs recruiting is really old. Also the poor Maht sediment on this particular one is ironic considering the number of players that have moved in to play for this school for over a decade.
This falls into the not-letting-the-facts-get-in-the-way-of-a-good-story category. To suggest Mahtomedi is systemically benefiting from incoming "top program" transfers is nonsense. While there may be an occasional student transfer into the program, they're net exporters. The more meaningful hockey-related challenge is the decades-long history of finding at least one of the better homegrown Mahtomedi players on Hill Murray's roster.
The fact that an actual community program like Mahtomedi (or insert any reasonably successful community based program) can compete with the likes of STA and Hill Murray is the real narrative. These private schools' entire programs are subsidized on the backs of the community programs from which they plunder the best players. And then they celebrate championships and pat themselves on the back after assembling their all star teams and defeating the very community programs from which their rosters were built.
It is what it is. And it is what it has been for a long time. But you won't find me advocating for what a school like Gentry represents. In fact, I happen to believe programs like Gentry are slowly dismantling community hockey programs.
(1) Are you saying that because Mahtomedi only ‘gets the occasional student transfer into the program’ that it’s okay? Are you implying that you’re comfortable with Mahtomedi helping to chip away at the community based programs you advocate for so long as it’s only a few players coming in? What’s your line of where that concept goes from acceptable to unacceptable? Seems to me that if you’re against transfers then you should be against all transfers, not just the ones that inconvenience this one particular team.
(2) Do the parents of Mahtomedi youth have any culpability in any of this? Last I checked Hill isn’t kidnapping your best youth hockey players in the middle of the night and forcing them to play for Hill. Mahtomedi has one of the best school systems in the state (ranked best school system in the state just a couple of years ago if I recall correctly). They have a team that regularly competes with AA programs, consistently makes the A tournament, and won the last A title. So why would parents of such program richness decide to pull their kids out of the community based program and send them to Hill? Seems to me they could get everything they can at Hill by staying put. Could it be that there might be other factors at play?
(3) The Gentry’s of the world will continue to exist, and they may come and go just like any other program. In my opinion, the vast majority of parents and students want an authentic and traditional high school experience. Nothing against Gentry, but I don’t think that’s their angle. I’m not dissing the school or its merits, but it was clearly created around the idea of hockey. There are plenty of other schools, private and public, that can offer just as much advancement and opportunity in hockey. Just take a look at all the NCAA teams playing the tourney right now. Most of the players from the remaining 3 MN teams are chalk full of MN players that played some portion of their high school hockey here in MN. This will continue to be the case. There’s nothing stopping any out of state family from moving to Eden Prairie or Mahtomedi and having their child have a great hockey development experience. There’s also nothing stopping the families of kids playing for Gentry that currently live in state from open-enrolling at EP or Mahtomedi. Gentry is all but assured to be placed in 4AA next year, so the only damage they’re going to do is to hurt Hill’s chances of making it to State consistently. The team you clearly don’t care for very much. They’ll be in the rear-view mirror of Mahtomedi and then they can get back to dominating the 4A city schools with changing demographics that stand no chance against the rich suburban Zephyr firepower with your ‘occasional student transfer into the program’
The City of Hill Murray is beautiful this time of year
BodyShots wrote: ↑Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:30 pm
So the real question is......
How many consecutive state championships (A and AA) will it take for the MSHSL to make changes?
Gentry is a lot like Shattuck and Shattuck is not allowed to play in the MSHSL.
Shattuck is allowed to play in the MSHSL, and did so for many years. They just chose to leave in furtherance of their goal of becoming an elite hockey academy. Boarding schools do participate in MSHSL activities (see St. John’s Prep and Winona Cotter).
is there a need for split off to a separate thread for possible brainstorm ideas for changes to MSHSL / Minn Hockey eligibility rules for in state transfers and/or out of state moveins?
hockeyjacques wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:49 am
If you look at Mahtomedi's roster this year and the past few years, they also have players from several communities. So nice try with the blaming because they are private. A top program private or public, in both A and AA don't need to recruit. Players show up because they want to be a part of a winning program with strong players. Players leave top programs also if they are say 3rd line and move to communities where they will get top line action (see 2 transfers on Maht). The narrative on this forum of top programs recruiting is really old. Also the poor Maht sediment on this particular one is ironic considering the number of players that have moved in to play for this school for over a decade.
This falls into the not-letting-the-facts-get-in-the-way-of-a-good-story category. To suggest Mahtomedi is systemically benefiting from incoming "top program" transfers is nonsense. While there may be an occasional student transfer into the program, they're net exporters. The more meaningful hockey-related challenge is the decades-long history of finding at least one of the better homegrown Mahtomedi players on Hill Murray's roster.
The fact that an actual community program like Mahtomedi (or insert any reasonably successful community based program) can compete with the likes of STA and Hill Murray is the real narrative. These private schools' entire programs are subsidized on the backs of the community programs from which they plunder the best players. And then they celebrate championships and pat themselves on the back after assembling their all star teams and defeating the very community programs from which their rosters were built.
It is what it is. And it is what it has been for a long time. But you won't find me advocating for what a school like Gentry represents. In fact, I happen to believe programs like Gentry are slowly dismantling community hockey programs.
(1) Are you saying that because Mahtomedi only ‘gets the occasional student transfer into the program’ that it’s okay? Are you implying that you’re comfortable with Mahtomedi helping to chip away at the community based programs you advocate for so long as it’s only a few players coming in? What’s your line of where that concept goes from acceptable to unacceptable? Seems to me that if you’re against transfers then you should be against all transfers, not just the ones that inconvenience this one particular team.
(2) Do the parents of Mahtomedi youth have any culpability in any of this? Last I checked Hill isn’t kidnapping your best youth hockey players in the middle of the night and forcing them to play for Hill. Mahtomedi has one of the best school systems in the state (ranked best school system in the state just a couple of years ago if I recall correctly). They have a team that regularly competes with AA programs, consistently makes the A tournament, and won the last A title. So why would parents of such program richness decide to pull their kids out of the community based program and send them to Hill? Seems to me they could get everything they can at Hill by staying put. Could it be that there might be other factors at play?
(3) The Gentry’s of the world will continue to exist, and they may come and go just like any other program. In my opinion, the vast majority of parents and students want an authentic and traditional high school experience. Nothing against Gentry, but I don’t think that’s their angle. I’m not dissing the school or its merits, but it was clearly created around the idea of hockey. There are plenty of other schools, private and public, that can offer just as much advancement and opportunity in hockey. Just take a look at all the NCAA teams playing the tourney right now. Most of the players from the remaining 3 MN teams are chalk full of MN players that played some portion of their high school hockey here in MN. This will continue to be the case. There’s nothing stopping any out of state family from moving to Eden Prairie or Mahtomedi and having their child have a great hockey development experience. There’s also nothing stopping the families of kids playing for Gentry that currently live in state from open-enrolling at EP or Mahtomedi. Gentry is all but assured to be placed in 4AA next year, so the only damage they’re going to do is to hurt Hill’s chances of making it to State consistently. The team you clearly don’t care for very much. They’ll be in the rear-view mirror of Mahtomedi and then they can get back to dominating the 4A city schools with changing demographics that stand no chance against the rich suburban Zephyr firepower with your ‘occasional student transfer into the program’
Fair points BlueLine. Touché on Poesch. To answer your questions...
1) No. I'm not in favor of transfers, period. My point was simply that Mahtomedi isn't exactly the hotbed of incoming high-end transfers that some make them out to be. They lose more talent than they gain.
2) Yes. Also yes - there are a number of factors at play - not the least of which is the "me first" culture that's taken a stranglehold on youth and high school sports. To be fair, that's not a dynamic that's limited to HM, and it's not new. It's simply become more pervasive.
3) I wish Mahtomedi would opt up. They have the numbers. Since they've started playing AA at the youth level, they've had success. And - I would enjoy the rare occasion in which Mahtomedi may be able to compete against HM for a section championship, if for no other reason than to temporarily inject a dose of humility into the incessant self-adoration
This falls into the not-letting-the-facts-get-in-the-way-of-a-good-story category. To suggest Mahtomedi is systemically benefiting from incoming "top program" transfers is nonsense. While there may be an occasional student transfer into the program, they're net exporters. The more meaningful hockey-related challenge is the decades-long history of finding at least one of the better homegrown Mahtomedi players on Hill Murray's roster.
The fact that an actual community program like Mahtomedi (or insert any reasonably successful community based program) can compete with the likes of STA and Hill Murray is the real narrative. These private schools' entire programs are subsidized on the backs of the community programs from which they plunder the best players. And then they celebrate championships and pat themselves on the back after assembling their all star teams and defeating the very community programs from which their rosters were built.
It is what it is. And it is what it has been for a long time. But you won't find me advocating for what a school like Gentry represents. In fact, I happen to believe programs like Gentry are slowly dismantling community hockey programs.
(1) Are you saying that because Mahtomedi only ‘gets the occasional student transfer into the program’ that it’s okay? Are you implying that you’re comfortable with Mahtomedi helping to chip away at the community based programs you advocate for so long as it’s only a few players coming in? What’s your line of where that concept goes from acceptable to unacceptable? Seems to me that if you’re against transfers then you should be against all transfers, not just the ones that inconvenience this one particular team.
(2) Do the parents of Mahtomedi youth have any culpability in any of this? Last I checked Hill isn’t kidnapping your best youth hockey players in the middle of the night and forcing them to play for Hill. Mahtomedi has one of the best school systems in the state (ranked best school system in the state just a couple of years ago if I recall correctly). They have a team that regularly competes with AA programs, consistently makes the A tournament, and won the last A title. So why would parents of such program richness decide to pull their kids out of the community based program and send them to Hill? Seems to me they could get everything they can at Hill by staying put. Could it be that there might be other factors at play?
(3) The Gentry’s of the world will continue to exist, and they may come and go just like any other program. In my opinion, the vast majority of parents and students want an authentic and traditional high school experience. Nothing against Gentry, but I don’t think that’s their angle. I’m not dissing the school or its merits, but it was clearly created around the idea of hockey. There are plenty of other schools, private and public, that can offer just as much advancement and opportunity in hockey. Just take a look at all the NCAA teams playing the tourney right now. Most of the players from the remaining 3 MN teams are chalk full of MN players that played some portion of their high school hockey here in MN. This will continue to be the case. There’s nothing stopping any out of state family from moving to Eden Prairie or Mahtomedi and having their child have a great hockey development experience. There’s also nothing stopping the families of kids playing for Gentry that currently live in state from open-enrolling at EP or Mahtomedi. Gentry is all but assured to be placed in 4AA next year, so the only damage they’re going to do is to hurt Hill’s chances of making it to State consistently. The team you clearly don’t care for very much. They’ll be in the rear-view mirror of Mahtomedi and then they can get back to dominating the 4A city schools with changing demographics that stand no chance against the rich suburban Zephyr firepower with your ‘occasional student transfer into the program’
Fair points BlueLine. Touché on Poesch. To answer your questions...
1) No. I'm not in favor of transfers, period. My point was simply that Mahtomedi isn't exactly the hotbed of incoming high-end transfers that some make them out to be. They lose more talent than they gain.
2) Yes. Also yes - there are a number of factors at play - not the least of which is the "me first" culture that's taken a stranglehold on youth and high school sports. To be fair, that's not a dynamic that's limited to HM, and it's not new. It's simply become more pervasive.
3) I wish Mahtomedi would opt up. They have the numbers. Since they've started playing AA at the youth level, they've had success. And - I would enjoy the rare occasion in which Mahtomedi may be able to compete against HM for a section championship, if for no other reason than to temporarily inject a dose of humility into the incessant self-adoration
They could if they desired to, but their results don't suggest they have to. Until last year, they've never been past the semis. They're not even in the tourney this year.