MSHSL Oct 1st Meeting (Boys Hockey Season Fate)

[WestMetro]

Interesting podcast by Pete W and Ken P.



https://anchor.fm/pete-waggoner3/episod ... -12-ekfvm4


Elliott , can you add any Minnesota Hockey perspectives to what KP is suggesting?

[chester1991]

Wise Old Man do you them want to close up for a bit?

Sign Posted:
Don't feed the troll please....

You are right! Sorry about that!

[jg2112]

Regarding virus trends, a question.

If a school is 100% distance learning, does that mean its athletes cannot take part in extracurricular activities?

[Hunters1993]

Regarding virus trends, a question.

If a school is 100% distance learning, does that mean its athletes cannot take part in extracurricular activities?

Rephrasing the question.....

Can they or should they.............

[Hunters1993]

From school site

High schools students will transition from distance learning to the hybrid model on Monday, Sept. 28. Staff have been working hard to make sure we have everything in place to bring students back into the buildings safely.
As a reminder, in a hybrid model, high school students will return to school buildings two days per week with enhanced health, cleaning, and distancing protocol at 50% capacity. Students will learn remotely on the other days. Limited capacity in the schools will allow for maximum physical distancing. Students can find their “Hybrid A” or “Hybrid B” group assignments in Campus Portal. More information will be shared with high school families before Sept. 28. At this time, no changes will be made in the elementary and middle school learning models, or to the Online Learning Academy.

Give it a month or two and wait for the move back to online. We can play the game all day naming schools going one way or another.

Dodge county
Kasson-Mantorville
Albert Lea

That is just in last week. Give it time.

Hunter, we all know you are concerned for your children and others.

BUT, some of us are trying not to live in fear. Some of us are trying to find ways to make it work and provide some degree of normalcy for the young people in our communities. Is there a risk? Of course. But hiding is not an appropriate answer for me. I will (am) doing things to try and make it work with an ear to the ground for adaption.

I have one fear in life and covid-19 is not it.

My point is that this PANDEMIC is far from over. Check out last two weeks over month period.

Sports or in class education. That is what it is going to come down to. We aren’t going to get both.

[WestMetro]

Good article by Youth Hockey Hub

https://www.youthhockeyhub.com/news_art ... ow/1125655

[Rails Hockey]

From school site

High schools students will transition from distance learning to the hybrid model on Monday, Sept. 28. Staff have been working hard to make sure we have everything in place to bring students back into the buildings safely.
As a reminder, in a hybrid model, high school students will return to school buildings two days per week with enhanced health, cleaning, and distancing protocol at 50% capacity. Students will learn remotely on the other days. Limited capacity in the schools will allow for maximum physical distancing. Students can find their “Hybrid A” or “Hybrid B” group assignments in Campus Portal. More information will be shared with high school families before Sept. 28. At this time, no changes will be made in the elementary and middle school learning models, or to the Online Learning Academy.

Give it a month or two and wait for the move back to online. We can play the game all day naming schools going one way or another.

Dodge county
Kasson-Mantorville
Albert Lea

That is just in last week. Give it time.

Hunter, we all know you are concerned for your children and others.

BUT, some of us are trying not to live in fear. Some of us are trying to find ways to make it work and provide some degree of normalcy for the young people in our communities. Is there a risk? Of course. But hiding is not an appropriate answer for me. I will (am) doing things to try and make it work with an ear to the ground for adaption.

I have one fear in life and covid-19 is not it.

AMEN!

[Hunters1993]

From school site

High schools students will transition from distance learning to the hybrid model on Monday, Sept. 28. Staff have been working hard to make sure we have everything in place to bring students back into the buildings safely.
As a reminder, in a hybrid model, high school students will return to school buildings two days per week with enhanced health, cleaning, and distancing protocol at 50% capacity. Students will learn remotely on the other days. Limited capacity in the schools will allow for maximum physical distancing. Students can find their “Hybrid A” or “Hybrid B” group assignments in Campus Portal. More information will be shared with high school families before Sept. 28. At this time, no changes will be made in the elementary and middle school learning models, or to the Online Learning Academy.

Give it a month or two and wait for the move back to online. We can play the game all day naming schools going one way or another.

Dodge county
Kasson-Mantorville
Albert Lea

That is just in last week. Give it time.

Hunter, we all know you are concerned for your children and others.

BUT, some of us are trying not to live in fear. Some of us are trying to find ways to make it work and provide some degree of normalcy for the young people in our communities. Is there a risk? Of course. But hiding is not an appropriate answer for me. I will (am) doing things to try and make it work with an ear to the ground for adaption.

I have one fear in life and covid-19 is not it.

AMEN!

Fear no, healthy respect for society well being yes. Decisions we make effect others. I wish you all could see what covid patients look like with ventilators breathing for the average American who was otherwise healthy. Watching a person be told that they will have to not work for so long when the family is counting on his/her income. Watch a sick person infect dozens because they think this is all a hoax. And done.

[Duluthguy]

Regarding virus trends, a question.

If a school is 100% distance learning, does that mean its athletes cannot take part in extracurricular activities?

Here in Duluth, the East and Denfeld High Schools are 100% distance learning and the extracurriculars are ongoing. Soccer teams are playing (250 in the stadium, etc.), cross-country meets are occurring, etc. as in other districts where kids are in class part-time or full-time.

[Rails Hockey]

Regarding virus trends, a question.

If a school is 100% distance learning, does that mean its athletes cannot take part in extracurricular activities?

If you are 100% distance, (Elem/Middle/High) you cannot participate per the rule put in place in August by the MSHSL. If Elementary is at least Hybrid but Middle and High School Distance, you can participate. You also have Distance with In Person Support, which I believe also allows you to participate. I believe it’s only if no child is allowed in school for any reason at any level that you can’t participate.

The spirit of the rule was for Schools that were forced to choose full distance based on County numbers. But it doesn’t specifically make an exception for schools that choose full distance even though County numbers would allow them to be in school.

[Rails Hockey]

Regarding virus trends, a question.

If a school is 100% distance learning, does that mean its athletes cannot take part in extracurricular activities?

Here in Duluth, the East and Denfeld High Schools are 100% distance learning and the extracurriculars are ongoing. Soccer teams are playing (250 in the stadium, etc.), cross-country meets are occurring, etc. as in other districts where kids are in class part-time or full-time.

Elementary is Hybrid in Duluth, which allows them to participate in the MSHSL.

[6AAGuy]

I'm with Elliott.

[Hunters1993]

From school site

High schools students will transition from distance learning to the hybrid model on Monday, Sept. 28. Staff have been working hard to make sure we have everything in place to bring students back into the buildings safely.
As a reminder, in a hybrid model, high school students will return to school buildings two days per week with enhanced health, cleaning, and distancing protocol at 50% capacity. Students will learn remotely on the other days. Limited capacity in the schools will allow for maximum physical distancing. Students can find their “Hybrid A” or “Hybrid B” group assignments in Campus Portal. More information will be shared with high school families before Sept. 28. At this time, no changes will be made in the elementary and middle school learning models, or to the Online Learning Academy.

Give it a month or two and wait for the move back to online. We can play the game all day naming schools going one way or another.

Dodge county
Kasson-Mantorville
Albert Lea

That is just in last week. Give it time.

Hunter, we all know you are concerned for your children and others.

BUT, some of us are trying not to live in fear. Some of us are trying to find ways to make it work and provide some degree of normalcy for the young people in our communities. Is there a risk? Of course. But hiding is not an appropriate answer for me. I will (am) doing things to try and make it work with an ear to the ground for adaption.

I have one fear in life and covid-19 is not it.

My point is that this PANDEMIC is far from over. Check out last two weeks over month period.

Sports or in class education. That is what it is going to come down to. We aren’t going to get both.

[WestMetro]

Good one!


Dave Spehar
⁦‪@MNHockeyStar‬⁩


Atleast Hermantown won’t be able to have Moorhead, Eden Prairie, Wayzata, LS, Hill-Murray, Totino, Mahtomedi, and SCC on the schedule this year. Finally they’ll be forced to play a single A schedule.

10/2/20, 10:22 AM

[rainier2]

Good one!


Dave Spehar
⁦‪@MNHockeyStar‬⁩


Atleast Hermantown won’t be able to have Moorhead, Eden Prairie, Wayzata, LS, Hill-Murray, Totino, Mahtomedi, and SCC on the schedule this year. Finally they’ll be forced to play a single A schedule.

10/2/20, 10:22 AM

[InThePipes]

Interesting podcast by Pete W and Ken P.



https://anchor.fm/pete-waggoner3/episod ... -12-ekfvm4


Elliott , can you add any Minnesota Hockey perspectives to what KP is suggesting?

Insightful, worth the time.

[Duluth_Topper]

Although schools in the cities are looking at going back into the classroom we are seeing some surging numbers in the greater Duluth area. Cloquet just announced next week 7th - 12th are going to hybrid from in person. And Carlton did the same a few weeks ago. I also now my kid's local team had 2 kids positive on the U16 or U18 team so they are shut down currently.

[ironranger2]

I believe most of the range (Grand Rapids to Ely) is either on hybrid or going that way next week. Numbers had been pretty good up here through the end of August. Must have been all the 612ers that came up for Labor Day

[Wise Old Man]

Going to address some of the points made here and on the podcast.

1.) It doesn't matter how many players have played whatever events since we got back into the rinks in June -- and I'm addressing specifically some of the figures that Ken Pauley put forth in the podcast about how many people involved in the fall hockey opportunities have supposedly been infected total or, infected directly thru their hockey involvement. First, he puts out data that was not generated by the MDH or any other health agency. At least, he doesn't specifically mention that. And, if that's where he had gotten it, I'm pretty sure he would've mentioned that as that would only increase the level of credence to that data. Also, considering HIPPA issues and callenges, it's very likely his numbers are only coming from self-reported cases to the STP or other fall programs. Meaning, those numbers are nowhere near accurate. Especially considering the significant hockey related spreading events that we and others have already discussed that we know did occur since rinks re-opened in June.

Also ...since 40% of all infected are asymptomatic, and even more have only mild symptoms, AND as a previous poster pointed out, and this the key point to the entire idea of attempting to do this "safely"...the average upper level player (and his parents) playing on a AAA summer team or, high school JV or Varsity WILL, due to the years of time and money already spent, along with the average mindset that these parents and players actually think at age 12 and above they're actually going to be playing Div. I hockey, be predisposed to have a mindset of..."the risk isn't that great" and "we can find a way to play" and.."gee, my son has what could be symptoms but, he really can't miss this weekend's tourney"...OR... "if he's positive, the whole team will have to pull out of the tourney and we're not going be responsible for that so, we're not going to get him tested or even keep him home"...OR....a player gets to the rink and has obvious symptoms, do you REALLY think that coach of that AAA or even high school team is going to send the player home?..especially if they're at an out of town tourney OR, especially if it's a top 5 player on the team? If you answer yes to any of the last few questions and have ANY experience in any "upper level" youth sports than you're lying your A** off.

2.) Very few associations will have the time or volunteer strength to run a "4 week bridge season". It's October 2nd. If Ken Pauley really thinks that the youth associations are going to be able to do everything that would need to be done in less than three weeks to get these "bridge" teams done and schedules set, he's whacked. And...due to all of the SafeSport and background check requirements -- about 10 days from start to finish on the background checks -- USA/Minnesota Hockey is not going to make mass exemptions for those requirements so high school assistant coaches can coach a bridge team. Meaning, the youth associations would somehow have to find enough coaches when they're already struggling to find even two coaches per team already.

Ken is like everyone else whose life truly revolves around the sport. He's predisposed to WANTING it to work. Don't get me wrong, I get it. I know Ken a bit and, I respect him. For the umpteenth time, my actual financial profession is directly related to the game at a pretty high level. In fact, I'm pretty sure I make more money each year directly from my hockey activity than Ken does Regardless, notice Ken goes to the whole 99.9% of the kids that get infected "at this age" have a mild experience after using his college-aged daughter as an example..i.e... none of these kids are dying from this. Does he know for a fact his daughter doesn't have myocarditis or permanent lung scarring as a number of asymptomatic/mildly symptomatic have come down with? Doesn't sound like it.

FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR...more importantly, it's about who the players, coaches, and officials might infect when they go back to their immediate and extended families. Ken also goes to the argument many here and other places have tried to make -- "we can't keep these kids inside or protected FOREVER" (he says forever but, my emphasis)... Again, how is a single season -- the very likely scenario based on current vaccine projections -- meet anyone's definition of "forever"? That continues to be one of the dumbest lines of reasoning put forth.

3.) Ken then gets on the topic of the state tournament. Here I am going question his basic reasoning skills a bit. He makes the statement that if the MSHSL is going to try to have a season, it is "obligated" to try to have a state tournament. As a larger point about the challenge of keeping kids playing high school hockey, versus losing them to "other opportunities". I'm sorry but, to me, this makes it obvious his greater motivation in all of this is simply to protect his (and the other high school coaches') turf. Regardless, Ken then makes the statement that since the MSHSL is having financial difficulties, it doesn't make any sense not to maximize every revenue stream possible. And then, 5 minutes later, says he understands that we couldn't have 20,000 people in a building. Really Ken? Talk about talking out of both sides of his mouth...It seems strange that Ken chose to spend so much time researching the infection numbers for fall hockey, but that he wouldn't know that, at the moment, the state isn't allowing more than 250 people into any indoor event which would obviously make any attempt at any kind of state tournament in literally every sport a financial loser. In turn, only making the MSHSL's financial situation even worse. If he's THAT clueless about the overall finances of high school sports, it's just another example he's only concerned about how we can "make it work".

Oh..and then he says when questioned about possible "blow back" from ADs..."there's always potential for that in individual communities where the decision-making isn't as tight as we'd hope or, the AD isn't as pro hockey as we'd like or, maybe not pro kid as we'd hope"... followed by a sarcastic cackle. Really Ken? Just because an AD might see things differently from a risk assessment standpoint and is more cautious means he's not "pro kid"?!? Wow...

I'm glad we're going to try and have a season. However, no matter how we attempt to justify how or why we are "trying to make it work", there absolutely is a risk/benefit equation that will include potential, unnecessary and preventable permanent disability or even death by moving forward. I guess it just comes down to how we as individuals choose to rationalize that probability/guilt in each of our brains.

[jg2112]

With regard to issue #3 presented in the above post.....

Anyone have an estimate how much it would cost to rent out TCF Bank Stadium for 2 weeks, put a rink in the middle of it, let youth groups rent the ice for 3-4 days each of the weeks, and hold the state tourneys the other 3-4 days? Maybe that's a way not only to hold the state tourney, but to make it a unique experience in the midst of this awful pandemic.

[Rails Hockey]

Going to address some of the points made here and on the podcast.

1.) It doesn't matter how many players have played whatever events since we got back into the rinks in June -- and I'm addressing specifically some of the figures that Ken Pauley put forth in the podcast about how many people involved in the fall hockey opportunities have supposedly been infected total or, infected directly thru their hockey involvement. First, he puts out data that was not generated by the MDH or any other health agency. At least, he doesn't specifically mention that. And, if that's where he had gotten it, I'm pretty sure he would've mentioned that as that would only increase the level of credence to that data. Also, considering HIPPA issues and callenges, it's very likely his numbers are only coming from self-reported cases to the STP or other fall programs. Meaning, those numbers are nowhere near accurate. Especially considering the significant hockey related spreading events that we and others have already discussed that we know did occur since rinks re-opened in June.

Also ...since 40% of all infected are asymptomatic, and even more have only mild symptoms, AND as a previous poster pointed out, and this the key point to the entire idea of attempting to do this "safely"...the average upper level player (and his parents) playing on a AAA summer team or, high school JV or Varsity WILL, due to the years of time and money already spent, along with the average mindset that these parents and players actually think at age 12 and above they're actually going to be playing Div. I hockey, be predisposed to have a mindset of..."the risk isn't that great" and "we can find a way to play" and.."gee, my son has what could be symptoms but, he really can't miss this weekend's tourney"...OR... "if he's positive, the whole team will have to pull out of the tourney and we're not going be responsible for that so, we're not going to get him tested or even keep him home"...OR....a player gets to the rink and has obvious symptoms, do you REALLY think that coach of that AAA or even high school team is going to send the player home?..especially if they're at an out of town tourney OR, especially if it's a top 5 player on the team? If you answer yes to any of the last few questions and have ANY experience in any "upper level" youth sports than you're lying your A** off.

2.) Very few associations will have the time or volunteer strength to run a "4 week bridge season". It's October 2nd. If Ken Pauley really thinks that the youth associations are going to be able to do everything that would need to be done in less than three weeks to get these "bridge" teams done and schedules set, he's whacked. And...due to all of the SafeSport and background check requirements -- about 10 days from start to finish on the background checks -- USA/Minnesota Hockey is not going to make mass exemptions for those requirements so high school assistant coaches can coach a bridge team. Meaning, the youth associations would somehow have to find enough coaches when they're already struggling to find even two coaches per team already.

Ken is like everyone else whose life truly revolves around the sport. He's predisposed to WANTING it to work. Don't get me wrong, I get it. I know Ken a bit and, I respect him. For the umpteenth time, my actual financial profession is directly related to the game at a pretty high level. In fact, I'm pretty sure I make more money each year directly from my hockey activity than Ken does Regardless, notice Ken goes to the whole 99.9% of the kids that get infected "at this age" have a mild experience after using his college-aged daughter as an example..i.e... none of these kids are dying from this. Does he know for a fact his daughter doesn't have myocarditis or permanent lung scarring as a number of asymptomatic/mildly symptomatic have come down with? Doesn't sound like it.

FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR...more importantly, it's about who the players, coaches, and officials might infect when they go back to their immediate and extended families. Ken also goes to the argument many here and other places have tried to make -- "we can't keep these kids inside or protected FOREVER" (he says forever but, my emphasis)... Again, how is a single season -- the very likely scenario based on current vaccine projections -- meet anyone's definition of "forever"? That continues to be one of the dumbest lines of reasoning put forth.

3.) Ken then gets on the topic of the state tournament. Here I am going question his basic reasoning skills a bit. He makes the statement that if the MSHSL is going to try to have a season, it is "obligated" to try to have a state tournament. As a larger point about the challenge of keeping kids playing high school hockey, versus losing them to "other opportunities". I'm sorry but, to me, this makes it obvious his greater motivation in all of this is simply to protect his (and the other high school coaches') turf. Regardless, Ken then makes the statement that since the MSHSL is having financial difficulties, it doesn't make any sense not to maximize every revenue stream possible. And then, 5 minutes later, says he understands that we couldn't have 20,000 people in a building. Really Ken? Talk about talking out of both sides of his mouth...It seems strange that Ken chose to spend so much time researching the infection numbers for fall hockey, but that he wouldn't know that, at the moment, the state isn't allowing more than 250 people into any indoor event which would obviously make any attempt at any kind of state tournament in literally every sport a financial loser. In turn, only making the MSHSL's financial situation even worse. If he's THAT clueless about the overall finances of high school sports, it's just another example he's only concerned about how we can "make it work".

Oh..and then he says when questioned about possible "blow back" from ADs..."there's always potential for that in individual communities where the decision-making isn't as tight as we'd hope or, the AD isn't as pro hockey as we'd like or, maybe not pro kid as we'd hope"... followed by a sarcastic cackle. Really Ken? Just because an AD might see things differently from a risk assessment standpoint and is more cautious means he's not "pro kid"?!? Wow...

I'm glad we're going to try and have a season. However, no matter how we attempt to justify how or why we are "trying to make it work", there absolutely is a risk/benefit equation that will include potential, unnecessary and preventable permanent disability or even death by moving forward. I guess it just comes down to how we as individuals choose to rationalize that probability/guilt in each of our brains.

I would refute some of your points above, but Ken Pauley already did that in the same Pod Cast that you're referencing:

"The School District Doesn't own your kids, the Superintendent doesn't own your kids, the State of MN doesn't own your kids. Parents own their kids."

We've lived with this Virus for 8 months now. We've watched, we've observed, we've researched, we've been back and forth, we've listened to people that we trust, we've seen people in our communities test positive, we've seen how those people reacted to it, we've seen the political side of it. We've watched Sports played safely over and over again. We've learned.

People are fully equipped and fully capable of making their own decisions at this point. That's called an Educated choice.

The debate is over in my opinion. If you're not comfortable with your kid playing, THEN KEEP THEM HOME. That is your choice. You don't get to make that choice for others. That's not how it works. It really is as simple as that.

the average upper level player (and his parents) playing on a AAA summer team or, high school JV or Varsity WILL, due to the years of time and money already spent, along with the average mindset that these parents and players actually think at age 12 and above they're actually going to be playing Div. I hockey, be predisposed to have a mindset of..."the risk isn't that great" and "we can find a way to play

I've heard this statement a few times before. It always comes from the people whose kids don't play extra hockey, either because they don't want to, the parents don't want to, or they don't have the skill set to do it. So they have to mock it to make themselves feel better about their own situation, or use it to justify whatever agenda they have.

I want my kid to play as much Hockey and other Sports as he wants to. He loves the game, loves Sports and it's great for him in so many ways. I don't want him to miss a Season, I don't want him to miss out on anything that he wants to do. To me the risk of isolation outweighs the risk of playing Sports. I want him to play. Never at any point in his career have I thought that he was going to play Division 1. And I've never met anyone else along the way that felt this way either. That is not, "the average mindset." Light years away from it actually. But I suspect that you already know that.

[Hunters1993]

Going to address some of the points made here and on the podcast.

1.) It doesn't matter how many players have played whatever events since we got back into the rinks in June -- and I'm addressing specifically some of the figures that Ken Pauley put forth in the podcast about how many people involved in the fall hockey opportunities have supposedly been infected total or, infected directly thru their hockey involvement. First, he puts out data that was not generated by the MDH or any other health agency. At least, he doesn't specifically mention that. And, if that's where he had gotten it, I'm pretty sure he would've mentioned that as that would only increase the level of credence to that data. Also, considering HIPPA issues and callenges, it's very likely his numbers are only coming from self-reported cases to the STP or other fall programs. Meaning, those numbers are nowhere near accurate. Especially considering the significant hockey related spreading events that we and others have already discussed that we know did occur since rinks re-opened in June.

Also ...since 40% of all infected are asymptomatic, and even more have only mild symptoms, AND as a previous poster pointed out, and this the key point to the entire idea of attempting to do this "safely"...the average upper level player (and his parents) playing on a AAA summer team or, high school JV or Varsity WILL, due to the years of time and money already spent, along with the average mindset that these parents and players actually think at age 12 and above they're actually going to be playing Div. I hockey, be predisposed to have a mindset of..."the risk isn't that great" and "we can find a way to play" and.."gee, my son has what could be symptoms but, he really can't miss this weekend's tourney"...OR... "if he's positive, the whole team will have to pull out of the tourney and we're not going be responsible for that so, we're not going to get him tested or even keep him home"...OR....a player gets to the rink and has obvious symptoms, do you REALLY think that coach of that AAA or even high school team is going to send the player home?..especially if they're at an out of town tourney OR, especially if it's a top 5 player on the team? If you answer yes to any of the last few questions and have ANY experience in any "upper level" youth sports than you're lying your A** off.

2.) Very few associations will have the time or volunteer strength to run a "4 week bridge season". It's October 2nd. If Ken Pauley really thinks that the youth associations are going to be able to do everything that would need to be done in less than three weeks to get these "bridge" teams done and schedules set, he's whacked. And...due to all of the SafeSport and background check requirements -- about 10 days from start to finish on the background checks -- USA/Minnesota Hockey is not going to make mass exemptions for those requirements so high school assistant coaches can coach a bridge team. Meaning, the youth associations would somehow have to find enough coaches when they're already struggling to find even two coaches per team already.

Ken is like everyone else whose life truly revolves around the sport. He's predisposed to WANTING it to work. Don't get me wrong, I get it. I know Ken a bit and, I respect him. For the umpteenth time, my actual financial profession is directly related to the game at a pretty high level. In fact, I'm pretty sure I make more money each year directly from my hockey activity than Ken does Regardless, notice Ken goes to the whole 99.9% of the kids that get infected "at this age" have a mild experience after using his college-aged daughter as an example..i.e... none of these kids are dying from this. Does he know for a fact his daughter doesn't have myocarditis or permanent lung scarring as a number of asymptomatic/mildly symptomatic have come down with? Doesn't sound like it.

FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR...more importantly, it's about who the players, coaches, and officials might infect when they go back to their immediate and extended families. Ken also goes to the argument many here and other places have tried to make -- "we can't keep these kids inside or protected FOREVER" (he says forever but, my emphasis)... Again, how is a single season -- the very likely scenario based on current vaccine projections -- meet anyone's definition of "forever"? That continues to be one of the dumbest lines of reasoning put forth.

3.) Ken then gets on the topic of the state tournament. Here I am going question his basic reasoning skills a bit. He makes the statement that if the MSHSL is going to try to have a season, it is "obligated" to try to have a state tournament. As a larger point about the challenge of keeping kids playing high school hockey, versus losing them to "other opportunities". I'm sorry but, to me, this makes it obvious his greater motivation in all of this is simply to protect his (and the other high school coaches') turf. Regardless, Ken then makes the statement that since the MSHSL is having financial difficulties, it doesn't make any sense not to maximize every revenue stream possible. And then, 5 minutes later, says he understands that we couldn't have 20,000 people in a building. Really Ken? Talk about talking out of both sides of his mouth...It seems strange that Ken chose to spend so much time researching the infection numbers for fall hockey, but that he wouldn't know that, at the moment, the state isn't allowing more than 250 people into any indoor event which would obviously make any attempt at any kind of state tournament in literally every sport a financial loser. In turn, only making the MSHSL's financial situation even worse. If he's THAT clueless about the overall finances of high school sports, it's just another example he's only concerned about how we can "make it work".

Oh..and then he says when questioned about possible "blow back" from ADs..."there's always potential for that in individual communities where the decision-making isn't as tight as we'd hope or, the AD isn't as pro hockey as we'd like or, maybe not pro kid as we'd hope"... followed by a sarcastic cackle. Really Ken? Just because an AD might see things differently from a risk assessment standpoint and is more cautious means he's not "pro kid"?!? Wow...

I'm glad we're going to try and have a season. However, no matter how we attempt to justify how or why we are "trying to make it work", there absolutely is a risk/benefit equation that will include potential, unnecessary and preventable permanent disability or even death by moving forward. I guess it just comes down to how we as individuals choose to rationalize that probability/guilt in each of our brains.

I would refute some of your points above, but Ken Pauley already did that in the same Pod Cast that you're referencing:

"The School District Doesn't own your kids, the Superintendent doesn't own your kids, the State of MN doesn't own your kids. Parents own their kids."

We've lived with this Virus for 8 months now. We've watched, we've observed, we've researched, we've been back and forth, we've listened to people that we trust, we've seen people in our communities test positive, we've seen how those people reacted to it, we've seen the political side of it. We've watched Sports played safely over and over again. We've learned.

People are fully equipped and fully capable of making their own decisions at this point. That's called an Educated choice.

The debate is over in my opinion. If you're not comfortable with your kid playing, THEN KEEP THEM HOME. That is your choice. You don't get to make that choice for others. That's not how it works. It really is as simple as that.

the average upper level player (and his parents) playing on a AAA summer team or, high school JV or Varsity WILL, due to the years of time and money already spent, along with the average mindset that these parents and players actually think at age 12 and above they're actually going to be playing Div. I hockey, be predisposed to have a mindset of..."the risk isn't that great" and "we can find a way to play

I've heard this statement a few times before. It always comes from the people whose kids don't play extra hockey, either because they don't want to, the parents don't want to, or they don't have the skill set to do it. So they have to mock it to make themselves feel better about their own situation, or use it to justify whatever agenda they have.

I want my kid to play as much Hockey and other Sports as he wants to. He loves the game, loves Sports and it's great for him in so many ways. I don't want him to miss a Season, I don't want him to miss out on anything that he wants to do. To me the risk of isolation outweighs the risk of playing Sports. I want him to play. Never at any point in his career have I thought that he was going to play Division 1. And I've never met anyone else along the way that felt this way either. That is not, "the average mindset." Light years away from it actually. But I suspect that you already know that.

But your kids playing hockey is important enough to not have in person school. Where people learn in order to go to job and make a living.

We are not going to get both in person education and athletics. It is looking more and more like parents are picking athletics over education . Sad really!

[Hunters1993]

Read Rock Ridge, CEC, and a couple others are also going hybrid.

Don’t worry about those kids being left behind because of the online experience, right!

[Wise Old Man]

Going to address some of the points made here and on the podcast.

1.) It doesn't matter how many players have played whatever events since we got back into the rinks in June -- and I'm addressing specifically some of the figures that Ken Pauley put forth in the podcast about how many people involved in the fall hockey opportunities have supposedly been infected total or, infected directly thru their hockey involvement. First, he puts out data that was not generated by the MDH or any other health agency. At least, he doesn't specifically mention that. And, if that's where he had gotten it, I'm pretty sure he would've mentioned that as that would only increase the level of credence to that data. Also, considering HIPPA issues and callenges, it's very likely his numbers are only coming from self-reported cases to the STP or other fall programs. Meaning, those numbers are nowhere near accurate. Especially considering the significant hockey related spreading events that we and others have already discussed that we know did occur since rinks re-opened in June.

Also ...since 40% of all infected are asymptomatic, and even more have only mild symptoms, AND as a previous poster pointed out, and this the key point to the entire idea of attempting to do this "safely"...the average upper level player (and his parents) playing on a AAA summer team or, high school JV or Varsity WILL, due to the years of time and money already spent, along with the average mindset that these parents and players actually think at age 12 and above they're actually going to be playing Div. I hockey, be predisposed to have a mindset of..."the risk isn't that great" and "we can find a way to play" and.."gee, my son has what could be symptoms but, he really can't miss this weekend's tourney"...OR... "if he's positive, the whole team will have to pull out of the tourney and we're not going be responsible for that so, we're not going to get him tested or even keep him home"...OR....a player gets to the rink and has obvious symptoms, do you REALLY think that coach of that AAA or even high school team is going to send the player home?..especially if they're at an out of town tourney OR, especially if it's a top 5 player on the team? If you answer yes to any of the last few questions and have ANY experience in any "upper level" youth sports than you're lying your A** off.

2.) Very few associations will have the time or volunteer strength to run a "4 week bridge season". It's October 2nd. If Ken Pauley really thinks that the youth associations are going to be able to do everything that would need to be done in less than three weeks to get these "bridge" teams done and schedules set, he's whacked. And...due to all of the SafeSport and background check requirements -- about 10 days from start to finish on the background checks -- USA/Minnesota Hockey is not going to make mass exemptions for those requirements so high school assistant coaches can coach a bridge team. Meaning, the youth associations would somehow have to find enough coaches when they're already struggling to find even two coaches per team already.

Ken is like everyone else whose life truly revolves around the sport. He's predisposed to WANTING it to work. Don't get me wrong, I get it. I know Ken a bit and, I respect him. For the umpteenth time, my actual financial profession is directly related to the game at a pretty high level. In fact, I'm pretty sure I make more money each year directly from my hockey activity than Ken does Regardless, notice Ken goes to the whole 99.9% of the kids that get infected "at this age" have a mild experience after using his college-aged daughter as an example..i.e... none of these kids are dying from this. Does he know for a fact his daughter doesn't have myocarditis or permanent lung scarring as a number of asymptomatic/mildly symptomatic have come down with? Doesn't sound like it.

FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR...more importantly, it's about who the players, coaches, and officials might infect when they go back to their immediate and extended families. Ken also goes to the argument many here and other places have tried to make -- "we can't keep these kids inside or protected FOREVER" (he says forever but, my emphasis)... Again, how is a single season -- the very likely scenario based on current vaccine projections -- meet anyone's definition of "forever"? That continues to be one of the dumbest lines of reasoning put forth.

3.) Ken then gets on the topic of the state tournament. Here I am going question his basic reasoning skills a bit. He makes the statement that if the MSHSL is going to try to have a season, it is "obligated" to try to have a state tournament. As a larger point about the challenge of keeping kids playing high school hockey, versus losing them to "other opportunities". I'm sorry but, to me, this makes it obvious his greater motivation in all of this is simply to protect his (and the other high school coaches') turf. Regardless, Ken then makes the statement that since the MSHSL is having financial difficulties, it doesn't make any sense not to maximize every revenue stream possible. And then, 5 minutes later, says he understands that we couldn't have 20,000 people in a building. Really Ken? Talk about talking out of both sides of his mouth...It seems strange that Ken chose to spend so much time researching the infection numbers for fall hockey, but that he wouldn't know that, at the moment, the state isn't allowing more than 250 people into any indoor event which would obviously make any attempt at any kind of state tournament in literally every sport a financial loser. In turn, only making the MSHSL's financial situation even worse. If he's THAT clueless about the overall finances of high school sports, it's just another example he's only concerned about how we can "make it work".

Oh..and then he says when questioned about possible "blow back" from ADs..."there's always potential for that in individual communities where the decision-making isn't as tight as we'd hope or, the AD isn't as pro hockey as we'd like or, maybe not pro kid as we'd hope"... followed by a sarcastic cackle. Really Ken? Just because an AD might see things differently from a risk assessment standpoint and is more cautious means he's not "pro kid"?!? Wow...

I'm glad we're going to try and have a season. However, no matter how we attempt to justify how or why we are "trying to make it work", there absolutely is a risk/benefit equation that will include potential, unnecessary and preventable permanent disability or even death by moving forward. I guess it just comes down to how we as individuals choose to rationalize that probability/guilt in each of our brains.

I would refute some of your points above, but Ken Pauley already did that in the same Pod Cast that you're referencing:

"The School District Doesn't own your kids, the Superintendent doesn't own your kids, the State of MN doesn't own your kids. Parents own their kids."

We've lived with this Virus for 8 months now. We've watched, we've observed, we've researched, we've been back and forth, we've listened to people that we trust, we've seen people in our communities test positive, we've seen how those people reacted to it, we've seen the political side of it. We've watched Sports played safely over and over again. We've learned.

People are fully equipped and fully capable of making their own decisions at this point. That's called an Educated choice.

The debate is over in my opinion. If you're not comfortable with your kid playing, THEN KEEP THEM HOME. That is your choice. You don't get to make that choice for others. That's not how it works. It really is as simple as that.

the average upper level player (and his parents) playing on a AAA summer team or, high school JV or Varsity WILL, due to the years of time and money already spent, along with the average mindset that these parents and players actually think at age 12 and above they're actually going to be playing Div. I hockey, be predisposed to have a mindset of..."the risk isn't that great" and "we can find a way to play

I've heard this statement a few times before. It always comes from the people whose kids don't play extra hockey, either because they don't want to, the parents don't want to, or they don't have the skill set to do it. So they have to mock it to make themselves feel better about their own situation, or use it to justify whatever agenda they have.

I want my kid to play as much Hockey and other Sports as he wants to. He loves the game, loves Sports and it's great for him in so many ways. I don't want him to miss a Season, I don't want him to miss out on anything that he wants to do. To me the risk of isolation outweighs the risk of playing Sports. I want him to play. Never at any point in his career have I thought that he was going to play Division 1. And I've never met anyone else along the way that felt this way either. That is not, "the average mindset." Light years away from it actually. But I suspect that you already know that.

Rails...appreciate your response.

1.) I'm a duly voted administrator. I presume I was voted in because the members trusted me to make big, sometimes difficult, decisions regarding our program. Thus, I actually do get to help decide on whether it's truly safe or not to allow our kids to play.

2.) Ken and you are correct that, in the very end, parents "own" their kids and get to ultimately decide what's "safe" or not for them. However, the MSHSL, a specific AD, a mayor, a youth sports board "owns" the OPPORTUNITY for your child to participate in activity they sponsor or manage, or use city owned facilities. It all comes down to liability. At the moment, USA and Minnesota Hockey are saying they're sanctioning "normal" play with required Covid restrictions. In our association, I've already been contacted by 5 different parents who are local physicians -- 3 of whom are on the local Covid task force -- who are extremely concerned that we are allowing a "normal game play" season. You know why? First, because of their learned concerns about the potential direct and indirect risks of infection, illness, and unnecessary increased risks of transmission. However, all have also raised the issue of the reality that, if other parents who may not take the virus as seriously choose to allow their kids to play, then it makes it extremely difficult for other parents to not allow their own kid(s) to play.

3.) You said..."We've watched Sports played safely over and over again. We've learned."...That is your opinion. And, it's likely one developed from a significant deficit of legitimate factual information. Why? Again, 40% OF ALL CASES ARE ASYMPTOMATIC. Meaning, we have no idea -- literally, NO IDEA -- exactly how much spread has occurred due to youth or adult sports activities as likely close to 99% of those kids haven't been tested. Funny, you chose not to address the points I made in my second paragraph regarding predisposition of mindset and, how challenging it is to truly maintain safety standards when anyone who has any experience in upper level youth sports knows that kids and parents won't be honest/do the appropriate thing if they had close contact with an infected individual but have no symptoms or, actually have mild symptoms.

Maybe the fact I had the opportunity to play at a pretty high level thru college and have coached at the college and Junior levels, allows me to maintain perspective on how truly difficult it is to get there. Thus, making it much easier for me too keep the proper perspective on this specific situation. I'm not "mocking" anyone that chooses to play AAA hockey. A number of my friends choose to allow their kids to do so. However, it's reality that parents who spent hours and hours and a lot of money on their kids' athletics are likely to be far more inclined to find a way to "make it work" than those who don't. And, the vast majority of association leadership positions are filled by the parents of these "better players". Thus, the general perspective by boards is to "make it work".

4.) Pretty obvious that with your statement of...

"I've heard this statement a few times before. It always comes from the people whose kids don't play extra hockey, either because they don't want to, the parents don't want to, or they don't have the skill set to do it. So they have to mock it to make themselves feel better about their own situation, or use it to justify whatever agenda they have."

you're insinuating that my rationale for my position is that my kids might not be good enough to play AAA or, I have some other "agenda". My ONLY "agenda" is player safety that directly affects possible unnecessary societal spread. Meaning, I choose to look at this globally, not from a more narrow sports perspective. Trust me, my players don't play AAA because I don't believe there's as much value in it as the AAA masses do. And, I also don't think the majority of those coaches know what they are doing. I'm not saying they never will play summer tournament hockey. But, it will probably only happen if I am able to help coach and, it would be extremely limited. Trust me when I tell you my kids love both this sport and others as much as any other kids do. I've already spent $2,000 plus since June on setting up my garage as a shooting/stick-handling station and they are using it almost daily.

4.) You also state...."Never at any point in his career have I thought that he was going to play Division 1. And I've never met anyone else along the way that felt this way either. That is not, "the average mindset." " Sorry, if you've never met anyone else along the way that felt that way either, then you simply haven't been involved long enough. And, if your kid does play AAA and you're still going to maintain you've never met parents who think that way, then you must be self-isolating from every other parent on your team.

5.) In all seriousness, is not wanting your child to miss out on anything they want to do worth you or others in your family getting significantly ill or, suffering from long-haulers' syndrome or, contracting myocarditis or lung scarring? Apparently, that's the decision your family has made. And, as you've said, that's your right. The bigger question we on these forums and others have been discussing since March is whether your decision to possibly risk your family's health, allows you to also possibly risk the health of someone you've never met and never will. I agree that the "average mindset" is not to play Div. I. However, the mindset around AAA is nowhere near "average" and I'm pretty sure you know that. Good back and forth though Rails. I always appreciate your posts.

[Wise Old Man]

One other thing. Most people avoid unnecessary confrontation. Meaning, it's highly likely that there's a silent majority in all of association athletics, that is more concerned than they are letting on about the fact sports are continuing and that they feel obligated to let their child play, despite their significant worries about the virus.