MSHSL Oct 1st Meeting (Boys Hockey Season Fate)

[Hunters1993]

Look at trends.

[SpOilerfan]

Sadly this thread has now regressed to long posts much like the one that was shut down!!

[Hunters1993]

Is it wrong to post up to date data?

[east hockey]

Sadly this thread has now regressed to long posts much like the one that was shut down!!

It wasn't shut down because of long posts.

Lee

[Stang5280]

FWIW, the MDH is now reporting the names of schools with five or more cases in a two-week period on this page: https://www.health.state.mn.us/diseases ... .html#k121
(Scroll down to “Facilities with Cases & Exposures”)

I was pleasantly surprised at how few schools were on the list, with Albert Lea, Brainerd, and Fairmont being the only high schools. Apparently there was an outbreak at a funeral in Martin County, which accounts for several of the schools. Hopefully this positive trend continues.

[Rails Hockey]

Rails...appreciate your response.

1.) I'm a duly voted administrator. I presume I was voted in because the members trusted me to make big, sometimes difficult, decisions regarding our program. Thus, I actually do get to help decide on whether it's truly safe or not to allow our kids to play.

I appreciate your service.

2.) Ken and you are correct that, in the very end, parents "own" their kids and get to ultimately decide what's "safe" or not for them. However, the MSHSL, a specific AD, a mayor, a youth sports board "owns" the OPPORTUNITY for your child to participate in activity they sponsor or manage, or use city owned facilities. It all comes down to liability. At the moment, USA and Minnesota Hockey are saying they're sanctioning "normal" play with required Covid restrictions. In our association, I've already been contacted by 5 different parents who are local physicians -- 3 of whom are on the local Covid task force -- who are extremely concerned that we are allowing a "normal game play" season. You know why? First, because of their learned concerns about the potential direct and indirect risks of infection, illness, and unnecessary increased risks of transmission. However, all have also raised the issue of the reality that, if other parents who may not take the virus as seriously choose to allow their kids to play, then it makes it extremely difficult for other parents to not allow their own kid(s) to play.

No disagreement there, they do own that opportunity. AND THEY'VE CHOSEN TO OFFER IT. Which puts the decision squarely on the Parents. I'm not going to spend time worrying about other people's decisions being difficult based on what someone else decides. I have enough issues of my own. Life is full of difficult decisions. Make them the best you can and move on to the next one. My Parents used to tell me, "I don't care what that kid is doing, you're not doing it." "If they jumped off a bridge would you?" What happened to that line of thinking? This should not even factor into it in my opinion.

3.) You said..."We've watched Sports played safely over and over again. We've learned."...That is your opinion. And, it's likely one developed from a significant deficit of legitimate factual information. Why? Again, 40% OF ALL CASES ARE ASYMPTOMATIC. Meaning, we have no idea -- literally, NO IDEA -- exactly how much spread has occurred due to youth or adult sports activities as likely close to 99% of those kids haven't been tested. Funny, you chose not to address the points I made in my second paragraph regarding predisposition of mindset and, how challenging it is to truly maintain safety standards when anyone who has any experience in upper level youth sports knows that kids and parents won't be honest/do the appropriate thing if they had close contact with an infected individual but have no symptoms or, actually have mild symptoms.

Yes, that is my opinion.

Maybe the fact I had the opportunity to play at a pretty high level thru college and have coached at the college and Junior levels, allows me to maintain perspective on how truly difficult it is to get there. Thus, making it much easier for me too keep the proper perspective on this specific situation. I'm not "mocking" anyone that chooses to play AAA hockey. A number of my friends choose to allow their kids to do so. However, it's reality that parents who spent hours and hours and a lot of money on their kids' athletics are likely to be far more inclined to find a way to "make it work" than those who don't. And, the vast majority of association leadership positions are filled by the parents of these "better players". Thus, the general perspective by boards is to "make it work".

I think that makes sense. People who are willing to commit time and resources to something obviously care about it and would like to see it happen.

4.) Pretty obvious that with your statement of...

"I've heard this statement a few times before. It always comes from the people whose kids don't play extra hockey, either because they don't want to, the parents don't want to, or they don't have the skill set to do it. So they have to mock it to make themselves feel better about their own situation, or use it to justify whatever agenda they have."

you're insinuating that my rationale for my position is that my kids might not be good enough to play AAA or, I have some other "agenda". My ONLY "agenda" is player safety that directly affects possible unnecessary societal spread. Meaning, I choose to look at this globally, not from a more narrow sports perspective. Trust me, my players don't play AAA because I don't believe there's as much value in it as the AAA masses do. And, I also don't think the majority of those coaches know what they are doing. I'm not saying they never will play summer tournament hockey. But, it will probably only happen if I am able to help coach and, it would be extremely limited. Trust me when I tell you my kids love both this sport and others as much as any other kids do. I've already spent $2,000 plus since June on setting up my garage as a shooting/stick-handling station and they are using it almost daily.

My kid played AAA Hockey for 5 years. If your definition of value is will it make him a lot better Hockey player then I agree with you 100%. I don't think it does and I never thought it did. Putting that time and money into camps or practice would have made him better than AAA. But he loved it, met a lot of new friends and had a lot of fun. So I was willing to let him do it. Isn't there at least some value in that?

4.) You also state...."Never at any point in his career have I thought that he was going to play Division 1. And I've never met anyone else along the way that felt this way either. That is not, "the average mindset." " Sorry, if you've never met anyone else along the way that felt that way either, then you simply haven't been involved long enough. And, if your kid does play AAA and you're still going to maintain you've never met parents who think that way, then you must be self-isolating from every other parent on your team.

Do I know Parents that take it more seriously than they probably should? Yes, I do. But I don't believe that deep down they think the kid is playing D1, except for maybe a small minority. That was my point, it is not the "average mindset." It's a yes or no thing, so you would have to hit 50% for average. I don't believe it's close to that.

5.) In all seriousness, is not wanting your child to miss out on anything they want to do worth you or others in your family getting significantly ill or, suffering from long-haulers' syndrome or, contracting myocarditis or lung scarring? Apparently, that's the decision your family has made. And, as you've said, that's your right. The bigger question we on these forums and others have been discussing since March is whether your decision to possibly risk your family's health, allows you to also possibly risk the health of someone you've never met and never will. I agree that the "average mindset" is not to play Div. I. However, the mindset around AAA is nowhere near "average" and I'm pretty sure you know that. Good back and forth though Rails. I always appreciate your posts.

Is Serious Injury, Paralysis or Death worth the risk? We've seen all of those in Sports with our own eyes. And everyone accepts those risks. I'm not trying to minimize Covid, I know it can be serious for some. But there is risk with everything in life. You can't live in fear.

I appreciate the back and forth too Wise, I've always been a sucker for a respectful debate. But you and I could go on forever so I'll probably bow out after this one.

But here is one last little bit of food for thought. Teenagers are not going to stay home in their rooms and not leave the house. That will not happen. If they don't have Sports they will find something else to do with their friends. They will gather in groups of all sizes, with no adult supervision, no safeguards and do what they want. Why? Because their teenagers, they don't care. Think of how you were as a teen. Are they safer in that scenario, or are they safer in organized activities with guidelines, strict safety practices and Adult supervision?

Kids will play Hockey this Winter regardless of who is offering it. Are they better off with well established leagues like USA Hockey and the MSHSL, or Bob and Doug's Super Duper Elite League?

[InThePipes]

Kids will play Hockey this Winter regardless of who is offering it. Are they better off with well established leagues like USA Hockey and the MSHSL, or Bob and Doug's Super Duper Elite League?

The only ones better off at the end of this are probably gonna be Bob and Doug.

[SpOilerfan]

My point was here we go again on the pandemic, same guys same looong posts!

[Wise Old Man]

Why let political stances take over a legitimate topic?

Why feed the two trolls?

No consistency from the two moderators!

Goldy...is”Rails” a “troll” too? I certainly don’t consider him as such. He and I have been completely civil in our back and forth. I haven’t responded to his most recent post yet. But, I actually agree with much of what he said in it. I get it. It’s been a really long 7 months. We’re all very worn out regarding Covid. And, although I genuinely hope I’m dead wrong, the experts I respect are saying it’s actually going to get worse in the next few months. Add in the extra stress some of us are dealing with in regards to trying to find the safest way to allow kids to play, volunteer to coach teams, or figure out tryouts, and that stress only intensifies.

I wasn’t the one who posted the podcast. Which, was actually pretty enlightening as I know Ken Pauley’s voice carries some weight within the high school hockey community. At least the coaches community. I’m sorry you don’t appreciate my use of facts — not “my” facts but actual facts supported by experts regarding this virus and it’s infectiousness — to push back against what both Pauley and many others here continue to use as points of argument about how hockey and other youth sports have been and/or are supposedly so safe. I’m not interested in a protracted debate and, I’m not going to post any links to “prove” my points.

Which, in regards to your questioning of the mods, I think is why they haven’t involved themselves to this point. Quite frankly, I find it entertaining that YOU are calling out the mods for allowing comments on Covid or politics. You have actually made the most blatant political comments over the last 70 days on these threads. So, I’d be a little careful of what you wish for. Anyways, it’s late and I’ve got a long day tomorrow.

The reality is, it’s extremely difficult to discuss the details of whether high school hockey is returning, or why they deserve a full schedule while other sports don’t or, whether they deserve a state tourney when others won’t get one, or when Ken Pauley uses completely unscientific stats from the fall leagues to try and prove a point, or when he says he’s not aware of any real outbreaks associated with summer hockey when that’s provably false....is all very difficult without ultimately discussing THE underlying reason for all of it. I’m doing my absolute best to abide by the limitations that Karl and Lee have put forth.

[Wise Old Man]

My point was here we go again on the pandemic, same guys same looong posts!

You know SpOiler....nobody is forcing you to read them.

[blueblood]

How are the fall stats completely “unscientific”?

That is completely #FakeNews WOM.

Tier 1 players are being temperature checked, must scan in for attendance data tracking, and complete a health questionnaire prior to participating on ice, with data being shared with MH and the MHCA.

[Rails Hockey]

My point was here we go again on the pandemic, same guys same looong posts!

Sorry Dude. We can stand down if you have another post to type out professing your love for Langenbrunner if you would like. Because that’s been your only contribution to this board. You know, the guy who ran out the Coach and then bailed on your program to send his kid to the top team in the State. We can discuss that again if you would like. I’m sure everyone is at the edge of their seat in anticipation. Please don’t keep us waiting!!!

[lakescountrylife]

My point was here we go again on the pandemic, same guys same looong posts!

Sorry Dude. We can stand down if you have another post to type out professing your love for Langenbrunner if you would like. Because that’s been your only contribution to this board. You know, the guy who ran out the Coach and then bailed on your program to send his kid to the top team in the State. We can discuss that again if you would like. I’m sure everyone is at the edge of their seat in anticipation. Please don’t keep us waiting!!!

Ad Hominem
(Attacking the person): This fallacy occurs when, instead of addressing someone's argument or position, you irrelevantly attack the person or some aspect of the person who is making the argument.

[Rails Hockey]

My point was here we go again on the pandemic, same guys same looong posts!

Sorry Dude. We can stand down if you have another post to type out professing your love for Langenbrunner if you would like. Because that’s been your only contribution to this board. You know, the guy who ran out the Coach and then bailed on your program to send his kid to the top team in the State. We can discuss that again if you would like. I’m sure everyone is at the edge of their seat in anticipation. Please don’t keep us waiting!!!

Ad Hominem
(Attacking the person): This fallacy occurs when, instead of addressing someone's argument or position, you irrelevantly attack the person or some aspect of the person who is making the argument.

Absolutely. He didn’t address any of Wise’s arguments or positions. Just went after him for his posts being too long. Thank you.

[Wise Old Man]

How are the fall stats completely “unscientific”?

That is completely #FakeNews WOM.

Tier 1 players are being temperature checked, must scan in for attendance data tracking, and complete a health questionnaire prior to participating on ice, with data being shared with MH and the MHCA.

Blueblood...Thanks for providing more detail about how the information is being shared with MDH and others. That's obviously a very good thing. Any idea why Ken didn't provide those details in his comments on infection rates or totals? Certainly would have improved the quality of his point/argument. I'm certainly not questioning whether the day of event screening has been done properly. I'm sure it has. Although, I've heard reports of some facilities taking things more seriously than others. No surprise there though as the degree of management competence will vary even outside of Covid.

My larger point -- which I haven't seen anyone else push back on -- is that if 40% of infected individuals are asymptomatic, along with the fact that we all know kids/parents won't be completely truthful if they have mild symptoms or, even more so if they have had close contact with someone that's tested positive but they themselves don't have any symptoms, we actually don't have ANY real idea of exactly how many kids, coaches, or officials have either participated when infected and/or have infected other players, coaches, or officials while actually participating. Thus, I think it's pretty disingenuous for someone of Ken's stature to make those kinds of definitive statements about how safe he believes it is.

I had two of the physicians that have contacted me about their concerns listen to the podcast and, they were very surprised at how cavalier both Ken and the host seemed to be in regards to how "safe" they were convinced playing will be.
I find it interesting that the vast majority of people with science/medical backgrounds are so much more cautious about what we're trying to do than those of us without the same level of knowledge. Again, I want there to be a season as much as anyone, I really do. But, let's at least acknowledge there's a LOT we don't know about the possible long term effects of becoming infected -- symptomatic or not. Meaning, as much as we try to justify the decision to play, we ARE taking chances that some kids may -- emphasis on may -- have some legitimately negative outcomes if infected.

[blueblood]

WOM:

We all know this is emotional issue. I can only report on the facts that I know to be true having been involved with Tier 1 hockey this summer/fall.

It was extremely disappointing that the MSHSL ignored all the work put forth by the MHCA with data I know to be accurate from summer the STP survey and MH data.

Time to focus forward and continue to provide a positive and safe experience for all kids in all activities.

[SpOilerfan]

My point was here we go again on the pandemic, same guys same looong posts!

Sorry Dude. We can stand down if you have another post to type out professing your love for Langenbrunner if you would like. Because that’s been your only contribution to this board. You know, the guy who ran out the Coach and then bailed on your program to send his kid to the top team in the State. We can discuss that again if you would like. I’m sure everyone is at the edge of their seat in anticipation. Please don’t keep us waiting!!!

I was merely stating my opinion that I have read enough on the pandemic, more interested in reading about how the high schools will adapt to the schedule. No need to get personnel here like you I have a right to my opinion. And I am sure you know the Langenbrunner situation better than anyone so I will defer to you on that as well as your expertise on everything else.

[InThePipes]

Time to focus forward and continue to provide a positive and safe experience for all kids in all activities.

Speaking of that, Ken Pauly has mentioned on a podcast that plans would be announced in the next 36 hours about opportunities to expand the truncated HS season. I believe the podcast was recorded at some point Thursday, anyone heard anything yet?

[lakescountrylife]

Sorry Dude. We can stand down if you have another post to type out professing your love for Langenbrunner if you would like. Because that’s been your only contribution to this board. You know, the guy who ran out the Coach and then bailed on your program to send his kid to the top team in the State. We can discuss that again if you would like. I’m sure everyone is at the edge of their seat in anticipation. Please don’t keep us waiting!!!

Ad Hominem
(Attacking the person): This fallacy occurs when, instead of addressing someone's argument or position, you irrelevantly attack the person or some aspect of the person who is making the argument.

Absolutely. He didn’t address any of Wise’s arguments or positions. Just went after him for his posts being too long. Thank you.

Ummm...that awkward moment when you think I’m supporting you but later realize I was pointing out the fallacy of YOUR post.

[InThePipes]

A Twitter frenzy on the MHCA move yesterday and the message board is quiet?

[Schotzy]

A Twitter frenzy on the MHCA move yesterday and the message board is quiet?

That is exactly why I logged in this morning.....disappointing.

[elliott70]

A Twitter frenzy on the MHCA move yesterday and the message board is quiet?

And the rest of the story?

[Duluth_Topper]

Dear Minnesota High School Hockey Coaches,

The decision from the MSHSL to reduce the games and time with our kids comes as a disappointment.

Our Minnesota Hockey Coaches Association spent a significant amount of time collecting data and presented several plans which would have provided for the safety of our players and preserved the integrity of our high school season. Our efforts met with limited success. Instead of a 20-game minimum in the season, the MSHSL opted for a 30% reduction, a two-week delayed start, and no guarantee for a state tournament.
In an effort to preserve the high school hockey experience for our players, we have partnered with Minnesota Hockey to offer our players the opportunity to play in a Bridge Season that would begin on October 26 and run through November 21.

Those who are not already registered with USA Hockey must register at $56 per player.

Many of us have players who are participating in the Upper Midwest Elite League and HP Programs. Those affiliate agreements run through end of the October. Those players must be allowed to fulfill their commitment to those programs. They can rejoin your fall team beginning the second week.

Participation is optional and each program would be self-funding, much like our STP programs in the summer.

Statistics will be kept and our players will get a full game experience

It will be up to each coach to set his own schedule. (In fact, if you only wish to participate in 2 of the 4 weeks that we have set aside, you may do that as well! It’s your choice.) You choose how many games your program would like to take part in. It would be the goal to play each team in your division at least once.

Unfortunately, as of today, current high school league guidelines prevent high school coaches from working with their players. (We are hoping to obtain a waiver to change this.) For now, you should plan on working with your parent community in helping with organizing and recruiting the appropriate people to work with your players.

Please see the attached information sheet and respond to your Section Representative as to your program’s interest. We need a response by October 7 th - yes, no, maybe.

Minnesota Hockey Fall High School League
Bridge Season Outline and Information

Goal – To preserve the high school season by allowing high school age players to compete in the safest possible environment up until the official MSHSL start date.

I) All teams will properly register their coaches and teams with Minnesota and USA Hockey.
• All teams would be required to strictly abide by Minnesota Hockey’s COVID protocols. (Please note that all of these protocols were successful throughout the summer and fall seasons.)
•All coaches must adhere to MN Hockey coaching qualifications.
•All coaches and players must register with USA Hockey
•Players must play for the U-19 Team for which they attend school. (Players must be enrolled in participating schools.) No “super teams” with players from multiple schools. If some programs need to merge we will be able to accommodate this.

II) Season Outline and Dates (4 Week Outline)
Week 1- Tryout and Placement for “MN A Team” and “MN B Team” & Games
•October 26- October 31
Week 2 – Practice and Game Week
•November 1- November 7
Week 3 - Practice and Game Week
•November 8- November 14
Week 4 - Practice and Game Week
•November 15- November 21

III) Minnesota Hockey High School Fall League
√Teams will be divided into MN Hockey corresponding “districts”. Statistics will be tracked along with won/loss records.
*These districts would be unique to the Minnesota High Hockey Bridge League.
*Programs will be placed together by geography.

IV) Local Game Sites – Programs will utilize previously booked high school ice.
• New schedules will be built using previously booked/reserved game times.
•All coaches should check with local arena managers in order to make sure that their practice and game ice that has been previously reserved by the high school is available

V) Cost and Funding – All programs must be self-funding
•Fall Programs would be funded as you would fund an STP program.

VI) Officials
• Minnesota/USA officials
•$185 total per game cost for on ice officials.

Getting Started:

1. Please respond by October 7th you plan to participate and how many teams you anticipate having.

2. Secure ice time – best plan may be to blend already established captains practice ice with the ice time that you already have reserved for the two weeks that we are losing from November 9 through the 21 st.
a. Secure evening times for and “A” game and “B” game. Teams that have hosted scrimmage weekends could host a “League Festivals” where you could play at least two games
b. Season Schedule. We have set aside 4 weeks. However, it is your choice how many of these weeks you utilize.
c. You will work with other coaches within your district in scheduling your games. While we encourage you to stay within your “district” for games – you may schedule teams outside of these districts as well.

3. Recruit your captains’ parents/trusted parents/whomever to assist in communication and running the season – think youth hockey!! You’ll need volunteers for games, etc.

4. Assume that you and your staff will not be allowed to coach. (We are working to change this.) Recruit coaches for your teams. Many coaches already have someone who runs captains practice. Could be a good place to start.

5. Officials – Minnesota Hockey will provide a contact for each “district” in order to schedule officials for each game.

6. Costs:
 USA Hockey Fees: $56 per player (Those players who have already registered with USA hockey are already registered. No need to register twice!)
 Ice Time (Practice and Games)
 Officials
 Athletic Trainer

[elliott70]

this will all be handled by the coaches association through USAH MN affiliate registrar.

Local associations will have nothing to do with it.

[jg2112]

The High School League better take note of this and start planning for a State tournament now. If they don't host a state tourney, another entity will, and the MSHSL will be cut out of the revenues from The Tourney '21.