Minnesota Hockey Taking Over?

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greenwayraider
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Minnesota Hockey Taking Over?

Post by greenwayraider » Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:17 am

Heard that Minnesota Hockey is investigating taking over high school hockey if Mshsl cancels it. Anyone here any truth to it.

ironranger2
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Re: Minnesota Hockey Taking Over?

Post by ironranger2 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:53 am

That could cause quite the conundrum for Hermantown. Under Minnesota Hockey they are strong enough to field a AA and A team, but in MSHSL they can magically only field an A team.

Dog
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Re: Minnesota Hockey Taking Over?

Post by Dog » Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:04 am

greenwayraider wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:17 am
Heard that Minnesota Hockey is investigating taking over high school hockey if Mshsl cancels it. Anyone here any truth to it.
There's numerous schools that are looking at the option of fielding some type of U18 / U16 team with USA/MN hockey if there's no MSHSL hockey. I don't see how MN hockey could turn down someone wanting to form a team. And if there is MN (USA) U18 hockey, there's nothing the MSHSL could do to stop it. It'd be a shame because it could start the beginning of the end of MSHSL hockey (if it was successful the first year).

One rumor I heard from a USHL source (keep in mind it is a self-serving rumor) is that the MSHSL is purposely waiting until after Oct 1st to announce that there will be a (limited attended) 12 game HS season with no playoffs. The theory behind waiting is that it would be too late for kids to join a junior team at that point but early enough for the AD's to reschedule games.

I understand the source may want some kids to jump ship and I would hope it's just a rumor because messing with kids lives is really rogue..... but I wouldn't be surprised by anything anymore. Time will tell.

Dog
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Re: Minnesota Hockey Taking Over?

Post by Dog » Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:07 am

Dog wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:04 am
greenwayraider wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:17 am
Heard that Minnesota Hockey is investigating taking over high school hockey if Mshsl cancels it. Anyone here any truth to it.
There's numerous schools that are looking at the option of fielding some type of U18 / U16 team with USA/MN hockey if there's no MSHSL hockey. I don't see how MN hockey could turn down someone wanting to form a team. And if there is MN (USA) U18 hockey, there's nothing the MSHSL could do to stop it. It'd be a shame because it could start the beginning of the end of MSHSL hockey (if it was successful the first year).

One rumor I heard from a USHL source (keep in mind it is a self-serving rumor) is that the MSHSL is purposely waiting until after Oct 1st to announce that there will be a (limited attended) 12 game HS season with no playoffs. The theory behind waiting is that it would be too late for kids to join a junior team at that point but early enough for the AD's to reschedule games.

I understand the source may want some kids to jump ship and I would hope it's just a rumor because messing with kids lives is really rogue..... but I wouldn't be surprised by anything anymore. Time will tell.
And when I say "schools" I mean people affiliated with those HS hockey programs (not AD's because I'm sure they couldn't)

InThePipes
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Re: Minnesota Hockey Taking Over?

Post by InThePipes » Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:16 am

Dog wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:04 am
greenwayraider wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:17 am
Heard that Minnesota Hockey is investigating taking over high school hockey if Mshsl cancels it. Anyone here any truth to it.
There's numerous schools that are looking at the option of fielding some type of U18 / U16 team with USA/MN hockey if there's no MSHSL hockey. I don't see how MN hockey could turn down someone wanting to form a team. And if there is MN (USA) U18 hockey, there's nothing the MSHSL could do to stop it. It'd be a shame because it could start the beginning of the end of MSHSL hockey (if it was successful the first year).

One rumor I heard from a USHL source (keep in mind it is a self-serving rumor) is that the MSHSL is purposely waiting until after Oct 1st to announce that there will be a (limited attended) 12 game HS season with no playoffs. The theory behind waiting is that it would be too late for kids to join a junior team at that point but early enough for the AD's to reschedule games.

I understand the source may want some kids to jump ship and I would hope it's just a rumor because messing with kids lives is really rogue..... but I wouldn't be surprised by anything anymore. Time will tell.
I've also heard the points raised in the two quoted statements above.

InThePipes
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Re: Minnesota Hockey Taking Over?

Post by InThePipes » Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:51 am

greenwayraider wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:17 am
Heard that Minnesota Hockey is investigating taking over high school hockey if Mshsl cancels it. Anyone here any truth to it.
What are the most significant hurdles that would exist to this occurring? (Please do not turn this into a Covid is the most significant hurdle thread, we all know that). A few things that come to mind:

1 - MN Hockey would need to be willing - I would think they would be open to considering it?
2 - Utilize already existing resources (coaching staff, uniforms, equipment, schedule, ice access)
2- HS funding/subsidization for ice, officials, coaches salaries and travel would need to be covered in another way - I would think parents have covered the cost of hockey for 10-12 years already, what's one more season gonna hurt at this point?

Other significant (non-Covid) hurdles?

Dog
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Re: Minnesota Hockey Taking Over?

Post by Dog » Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:10 pm

InThePipes wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:51 am
greenwayraider wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:17 am
Heard that Minnesota Hockey is investigating taking over high school hockey if Mshsl cancels it. Anyone here any truth to it.
What are the most significant hurdles that would exist to this occurring? (Please do not turn this into a Covid is the most significant hurdle thread, we all know that). A few things that come to mind:

1 - MN Hockey would need to be willing - I would think they would be open to considering it?
2 - Utilize already existing resources (coaching staff, uniforms, equipment, schedule, ice access)
2- HS funding/subsidization for ice, officials, coaches salaries and travel would need to be covered in another way - I would think parents have covered the cost of hockey for 10-12 years already, what's one more season gonna hurt at this point?

Other significant (non-Covid) hurdles?
Not too may hurdles because MN Hockey cannot say no to an organization, let's say Cloquet youth, that wants to expand to a U18 etc organization. They are two separate entities so as long as the youth organization is formed and in good standing, someone would just have to approach the youth organization saying they had a bunch of U18 aged kids that wanted to play. USA hockey's mandate is to, pretty much, find a place for a kid who wants to play. They really don't care what the MSHSL does, because MSHSL kids are not affiliated with MN or USA hockey. Plus Minnesota kind of goes against the model in the rest of the country for kids this age.

As far as coaching staffs, I think the only ones that could be "influenced" not to coach are teachers because of their teaching contract with the school.

The cost would go from the schools subsidizing the ice etc, right back to the parents. Unless you had a person sponsor it, the cost would be much higher.

I'm not advocating this, just stating what I know. However if the MSHSL basically knows at this point what they are going to do and aren't being honest by sharing it because of self-preservation (ie $ from the HS tourney, etc) and to take away kids options, then they are in the wrong.

Again, it'll be interesting to see of it actually pans out this way.

Hunters1993
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Re: Minnesota Hockey Taking Over?

Post by Hunters1993 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:34 pm

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again! Of course Minnesota hockey will take your money. Why wouldn’t they? MSHSL takes risk of liability if they have a season. Minnesota hockey can take your money and have no risk. Why would they pass that up
#KEEPTHEKIDSINTHECLASSROOM

HSPuckFan96
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Re: Minnesota Hockey Taking Over?

Post by HSPuckFan96 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:52 pm

I'm sure the wait until October is calculated by the board. I know many feel they didn't cancel football now because many that are close to the borders would play in another state, which would be an issue for those schools.

I hope they have the hockey season

ironranger2
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Re: Minnesota Hockey Taking Over?

Post by ironranger2 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:25 pm

InThePipes wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:51 am
greenwayraider wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:17 am
Heard that Minnesota Hockey is investigating taking over high school hockey if Mshsl cancels it. Anyone here any truth to it.
What are the most significant hurdles that would exist to this occurring? (Please do not turn this into a Covid is the most significant hurdle thread, we all know that). A few things that come to mind:

1 - MN Hockey would need to be willing - I would think they would be open to considering it?
2 - Utilize already existing resources (coaching staff, uniforms, equipment, schedule, ice access)
2- HS funding/subsidization for ice, officials, coaches salaries and travel would need to be covered in another way - I would think parents have covered the cost of hockey for 10-12 years already, what's one more season gonna hurt at this point?

Other significant (non-Covid) hurdles?
What about drug/alcohol violations?
Student grades?

Does it really matter if we worry about those issues or not? Just throwing it out there...not even sure what my opinion is yet.

I am sure it has changed, but back when I was in high school, Junior Gold was the place to play if you didn't want to worry about your grades or didn't want to worry about if you got caught drinking.

I think it is inevitable that the Minnesota high school model is heading towards an association or club level. Costs being the main driver, but also the small vocal group of parents wanting to maintain full control of their kids hockey career.

ThatMNHockeyGuy62
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Re: Minnesota Hockey Taking Over?

Post by ThatMNHockeyGuy62 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:33 pm

If you wanted to keep the same coaching staffs, one major hurdle would be that many high school coaches are not USA Hockey certified, which they would need to be, and who knows if there are any certification classes happening right now? Maybe online only?

ThatMNHockeyGuy62
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Re: Minnesota Hockey Taking Over?

Post by ThatMNHockeyGuy62 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:39 pm

ThatMNHockeyGuy62 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:33 pm
If you wanted to keep the same coaching staffs, one major hurdle would be that many high school coaches are not USA Hockey certified, which they would need to be, and who knows if there are any certification classes happening right now? Maybe online only?
The other major piece would be funding and organization. Who would organize? The local associations or parents? If parents, that’s a lot of manpower needed. If associations, you then run into issues where high schools and associations don’t perfectly match up like OMG, Rochester, Mankato, Chaska-Chanhassen. Do those association then have the power to create one varsity team or do they keep the high school teams separated? It’s an intriguing idea but a lot of questions.

elliott70
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Re: Minnesota Hockey Taking Over?

Post by elliott70 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:05 pm

greenwayraider wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:17 am
Heard that Minnesota Hockey is investigating taking over high school hockey if Mshsl cancels it. Anyone here any truth to it.
No, MH offers junior gold and are prepared to accept more teams if need be.

elliott70
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Re: Minnesota Hockey Taking Over?

Post by elliott70 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:07 pm

ironranger2 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:53 am
That could cause quite the conundrum for Hermantown. Under Minnesota Hockey they are strong enough to field a AA and A team, but in MSHSL they can magically only field an A team.
No, MH assigns teams based on what their high school team plays - AA or A. Teams are allowed to participate at a higher or lower level by requesting MH to look at the situation and then allow or disallow it.
The 'strong enough' argument is not true.

elliott70
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Re: Minnesota Hockey Taking Over?

Post by elliott70 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:11 pm

InThePipes wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:51 am
greenwayraider wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:17 am
Heard that Minnesota Hockey is investigating taking over high school hockey if Mshsl cancels it. Anyone here any truth to it.
What are the most significant hurdles that would exist to this occurring? (Please do not turn this into a Covid is the most significant hurdle thread, we all know that). A few things that come to mind:

1 - MN Hockey would need to be willing - I would think they would be open to considering it?

This has been discussed - MH will accept teams but is hoping the high school program stays intact.

2 - Utilize already existing resources (coaching staff, uniforms, equipment, schedule, ice access)


This will be a local association problem to deal with.

2- HS funding/subsidization for ice, officials, coaches salaries and travel would need to be covered in another way - I would think parents have covered the cost of hockey for 10-12 years already, what's one more season gonna hurt at this point?

Other significant (non-Covid) hurdles?

elliott70
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Re: Minnesota Hockey Taking Over?

Post by elliott70 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:13 pm

Hunters1993 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:34 pm
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again! Of course Minnesota hockey will take your money. Why wouldn’t they? MSHSL takes risk of liability if they have a season. Minnesota hockey can take your money and have no risk. Why would they pass that up
This would add a cost to MH - the additional benefit/cost would remain with the local association.

elliott70
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Re: Minnesota Hockey Taking Over?

Post by elliott70 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:16 pm

ironranger2 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:25 pm
InThePipes wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:51 am
greenwayraider wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:17 am
Heard that Minnesota Hockey is investigating taking over high school hockey if Mshsl cancels it. Anyone here any truth to it.
What are the most significant hurdles that would exist to this occurring? (Please do not turn this into a Covid is the most significant hurdle thread, we all know that). A few things that come to mind:

1 - MN Hockey would need to be willing - I would think they would be open to considering it?
2 - Utilize already existing resources (coaching staff, uniforms, equipment, schedule, ice access)
2- HS funding/subsidization for ice, officials, coaches salaries and travel would need to be covered in another way - I would think parents have covered the cost of hockey for 10-12 years already, what's one more season gonna hurt at this point?

Other significant (non-Covid) hurdles?
What about drug/alcohol violations?
Student grades?

Does it really matter if we worry about those issues or not? Just throwing it out there...not even sure what my opinion is yet.

I am sure it has changed, but back when I was in high school, Junior Gold was the place to play if you didn't want to worry about your grades or didn't want to worry about if you got caught drinking.

I think it is inevitable that the Minnesota high school model is heading towards an association or club level. Costs being the main driver, but also the small vocal group of parents wanting to maintain full control of their kids hockey career.
MH has a rule about alcohol/drugs use as do almost all local associations.
MH does not have a rule about grades as they have no way of enforcing it. Most local associations have rule regarding grades.

elliott70
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Re: Minnesota Hockey Taking Over?

Post by elliott70 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:17 pm

ThatMNHockeyGuy62 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:33 pm
If you wanted to keep the same coaching staffs, one major hurdle would be that many high school coaches are not USA Hockey certified, which they would need to be, and who knows if there are any certification classes happening right now? Maybe online only?
There is plenty of time to get the certification if they act now.
Unfortunately no one (or very few) know what direction MSHSL is going.

elliott70
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Re: Minnesota Hockey Taking Over?

Post by elliott70 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:19 pm

ThatMNHockeyGuy62 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:39 pm
ThatMNHockeyGuy62 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:33 pm
If you wanted to keep the same coaching staffs, one major hurdle would be that many high school coaches are not USA Hockey certified, which they would need to be, and who knows if there are any certification classes happening right now? Maybe online only?
The other major piece would be funding and organization. Who would organize? The local associations or parents? If parents, that’s a lot of manpower needed. If associations, you then run into issues where high schools and associations don’t perfectly match up like OMG, Rochester, Mankato, Chaska-Chanhassen. Do those association then have the power to create one varsity team or do they keep the high school teams separated? It’s an intriguing idea but a lot of questions.
This is a big question mark. Local associations can do what hey want (within the rules) but local politics still come into play.

blueblood
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Re: Minnesota Hockey Taking Over?

Post by blueblood » Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:47 pm

If MH takes over, coaches will need the following:

1) register with USA Hockey.

2) complete USAH background check

3) complete SafeSport training

4) complete Age appropriate training (u-16/u-18 module)

5) be current on USAH level certification. Once level 4 is attained no additional level move up or recertification is required.

All HS coaches who are active in High Performance programs would have completed these steps.
Play Like a Champion Today

InThePipes
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Re: Minnesota Hockey Taking Over?

Post by InThePipes » Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:48 pm

elliott70 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:17 pm
ThatMNHockeyGuy62 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:33 pm
If you wanted to keep the same coaching staffs, one major hurdle would be that many high school coaches are not USA Hockey certified, which they would need to be, and who knows if there are any certification classes happening right now? Maybe online only?
There is plenty of time to get the certification if they act now.
Unfortunately no one (or very few) know what direction MSHSL is going.
Thanks for your insight Elliott.

Most of what I've heard from people "in the know" is that a 12-15 game HS season is being proposed with no (or a very limited) playoff competition. Obviously for even that to occur things probably need to remain where they are or improve from a Covid control standpoint in MN, but for the sake of discussion let's remove that part from the equation for now and assume the best going forward. Under those circumstances, I'd like to see MSHSL step aside for a season and allow MN Hockey to provide a more complete season and experience for the HS aged players and MSHSL making that decision sooner rather than later would facilitate solving the organizational issues raised above.

elliott70
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Re: Minnesota Hockey Taking Over?

Post by elliott70 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:52 pm

blueblood wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:47 pm
If MH takes over, coaches will need the following:

1) register with USA Hockey.

2) complete USAH background check

3) complete SafeSport training

4) complete Age appropriate training (u-16/u-18 module)

5) be current on USAH level certification. Once level 4 is attained no additional level move up or recertification is required.

All HS coaches who are active in High Performance programs would have completed these steps.
Good point.
Also, if need be USAH MH affiliate can give a pass to some coaches.

Wise Old Man
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Re: Minnesota Hockey Taking Over?

Post by Wise Old Man » Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:54 pm

InThePipes wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:48 pm
elliott70 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:17 pm
ThatMNHockeyGuy62 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:33 pm
If you wanted to keep the same coaching staffs, one major hurdle would be that many high school coaches are not USA Hockey certified, which they would need to be, and who knows if there are any certification classes happening right now? Maybe online only?

There is plenty of time to get the certification if they act now.
Unfortunately no one (or very few) know what direction MSHSL is going.
Thanks for your insight Elliott.

Most of what I've heard from people "in the know" is that a 12-15 game HS season is being proposed with no (or a very limited) playoff competition. Obviously for even that to occur things probably need to remain where they are or improve from a Covid control standpoint in MN, but for the sake of discussion let's remove that part from the equation for now and assume the best going forward. Under those circumstances, I'd like to see MSHSL step aside for a season and allow MN Hockey to provide a more complete season and experience for the HS aged players and MSHSL making that decision sooner rather than later would facilitate solving the organizational issues raised above.

Although I'm not as involved at the level Elliott is, I can confirm that IF there isn't a high school season, the only option high school/U-18 level kids will have is to play Junior Gold. There really isn't any reason for MH to suddenly allow the formation of individual or, even association based Tier I/II U-16 or U-18 teams as the opening of that door even just a little more than it already is would create even bigger challenges down the road regarding maintaining our "community-based" model.

Also, MH passed a new rule last year barring the formation of any traveling teams that are strictly selected based on school attendance. The associations who were already operating that way were "grandfathered in" and allowed to continue to operate that way for as long as they wanted to OR, if at any time a team at a specific level chose to be selected of players outside of the current school boundary team, then from that point forward any travel level team (A/AA) would have to be selected from that greater geographic area. Meaning, that's another reason why any individual U-16/U-18 teams based solely off of a specific high school attendance wouldn't be allowed.

If...repeat IF the MSHSL reduces or cancels the season and the high school kids come flocking to Junior Gold, one positive that might evolve from that situation moving forward after this season, would be the possibility of eliminating school sponsored JV hockey by having kids play Junior Gold/U-16 instead. This would obviously help reduce costs for the high schools AND, it would allow for the creation of a true, association based, U-16 Tier II division, with it's own state tourney and the teams would be eligible for the USA Nationals. Plus, I think we all agree that starting at the U-16 level, it's important that kids play more than the MSHSL 23 game limit. I'm not advocating going to 50 or 60 games as we would still want to maintain the 3:1 practice to game ratio if at all possible but, 40-45 would certainly be acceptable.

This would obviously take some coordination between USA Hockey/MH and the MSHSL but, it could be done. Your "JV" team would now be a Junior Gold/U-16 team. The high school varsity coach could identify as many as 6 players from the U-16 team that would also be rostered by the high school team and, with some limitations, those players would be allowed to play and practice with both teams throughout the season. However, you would have a limit on how many times an individual U-16 player could be "brought up" specifically from a games standpoint -- let's say it's 5 games. Meaning, if the varsity coach wants to bring the same player up for a 6th game in the "regular season", that player then has to decide if he wants to play and practice with the high school team for the remainder of the season OR, stay with the U-16 team the remainder of the year with no chance to be "brought up" for the playoffs. This would hopefully limit the opportunity for the high school coach to "screw around" with kids.

You could also have a rule by where one or all six of the previously designated players can be "brought up" for the high school playoffs and, no matter how many playoff games an individual player does or doesn't dress for, those do not count against his 5 game limit for high school. Then, when the high school team's season is complete, he/they can go back to the
U-16/Junior Gold team to compete with them in the playoffs and that way that team doesn't lose out on having that supposedly better player(s) in their playoffs.

However, back to the topic at hand....if anyone "out there" has any visions of "all star"/"AAA" type teams being allowed to form and travel all over like Shattuck, I strongly doubt that will be allowed. Regarding the coaches and certification. Elliot, my understanding is that to coach at the Junior Gold/U-16 level, an individual would have to have already attained their Level 1 & 2, as well as having taken the appropriate on-line, age-appropriate modules for both of those, as well as those required for Level 3, e.g. Bantam/U-16/Junior Gold. Meaning, if a high school varsity coach didn't have his level 1 & 2 cards already completed, they wouldn't be allowed to just get their Level 3 so they could immediately start coaching at the U-16/Junior Gold levels. Is that accurate?

Finally, and I'll address Elliott with this question too. It's my understanding that each individual District Director has the authority to limit travel in and out of his/her District. Is that true as well Elliott?

Wise Old Man
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Re: Minnesota Hockey Taking Over?

Post by Wise Old Man » Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:01 pm

To clarify....after re-reading my post, it's obvious some of you will accuse me of talking out of both sides of my mouth as I first stated that MH wouldn't allow for the formation of U-16/18 Tier I/II teams but, then later saying that there could be some positives moving forward if we eliminated high school JV hockey and moved those kids to the U-16/Junior Gold Level. What I meant by Minnesota Hockey not allowing the formation of U-16 TierI/II teams was in reference to any more "Shattuck-type" programs. They would allow U-16 teams but, they would have to be selected from players within the current association boundaries. I hope this clarifies my position from the first post. 8)

ThatMNHockeyGuy62
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Re: Minnesota Hockey Taking Over?

Post by ThatMNHockeyGuy62 » Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:15 pm

Wise Old Man wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:01 pm
To clarify....after re-reading my post, it's obvious some of you will accuse me of talking out of both sides of my mouth as I first stated that MH wouldn't allow for the formation of U-16/18 Tier I/II teams but, then later saying that there could be some positives moving forward if we eliminated high school JV hockey and moved those kids to the U-16/Junior Gold Level. What I meant by Minnesota Hockey not allowing the formation of U-16 TierI/II teams was in reference to any more "Shattuck-type" programs. They would allow U-16 teams but, they would have to be selected from players within the current association boundaries. I hope this clarifies my position from the first post. 8)
So private schools would be SOL? Could this be the start of the formation of a private only league if they went elsewhere?? (Tongue somewhat in cheek)

Locked