Will there be high school hockey for 2020-2021?

The Latest 400 or so Topics

Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)

Locked

Odds of a season happening

Yes 100%
37
42%
50-50
34
39%
probably not
14
16%
no way
3
3%
 
Total votes: 88

jg2112
Posts: 646
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:36 am

Re: Will there be high school hockey for 2020-2021?

Post by jg2112 » Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:47 pm

blueblood wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:44 pm
WOM:

I never said COVID wasn’t real.

Where is the science to support X number of people at Y event?

Riddle me this Mr. 25+ year Administrator; why are Wi, SD, ND and IA, states that border MN, resuming play?
We know why they're open. We don't talk about that on this forum.

The fact an epidemiological response to a once in a century pandemic is profit-driven, state-specific and political should make us all very, very depressed.

blueblood
Posts: 2545
Joined: Fri May 26, 2006 8:36 am

Re: Will there be high school hockey for 2020-2021?

Post by blueblood » Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:05 pm

Profit driven? #OMG. 🙀

For some of us, it’s our livelihood and chosen profession. God forbid if it interferes with trying to make a living.
Play Like a Champion Today

HockeyCrazy1970
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:55 pm

Re: Will there be high school hockey for 2020-2021?

Post by HockeyCrazy1970 » Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:05 pm

Nobody wants to be left behind as it pertains to getting back on the ice. The kids, parents, and coaches don't want to be the one that fell behind by sheltering while others were skating. It will show.
Any state or rink that offers the most lenient ice opportunity gets the action. For a couple weeks now actual hockey has been going on in SD and the rinks in WI have seen a ton of MN traffic. Camps are being announced all over (around MN). If the sense is that MN Hockey will be closed next season, we will have an exodus. Kids/parents aren't sitting out a year hoping little Johnny and his groups of 10 in MN will benefit from drills if anyplace else is playing hockey. Any AAA, travel, or juniors programs that promise hockey will be flooded. Private rinks in open states...a Utopia.

Who thinks Canada will not push the envelope?
Three days ago..."Hockey Canada has lifted its ban on sanctioned activities and is allowing the country's 13 member organizations to individually determine when it's safe to return to action. The move is a first step toward resuming play after Hockey Canada cancelled all activities under its banner March 12 because of the COVID-19 pandemic."

Space race, arms race, get my kid back on the ice race. The sacrifices these kids and parents have been making for years to get their kids somewhere in hockey won't bat an eye at the threat of covid 19. Some people ship their kids off at 14 years old to billet with strangers. They spend tens of thousands on travel hockey, camps, and equipment. They enroll them in on-line schools, they quit jobs and move cities, states, and maybe countries.
Playing hockey is a calculated risk parents have been weighing since day one. The stats/numbers for Covid19 in these age groups...

Wise Old Man
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2019 8:11 pm

Re: Will there be high school hockey for 2020-2021?

Post by Wise Old Man » Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:25 pm

HockeyCrazy1970 wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:05 pm
Nobody wants to be left behind as it pertains to getting back on the ice. The kids, parents, and coaches don't want to be the one that fell behind by sheltering while others were skating. It will show.
Any state or rink that offers the most lenient ice opportunity gets the action. For a couple weeks now actual hockey has been going on in SD and the rinks in WI have seen a ton of MN traffic. Camps are being announced all over (around MN). If the sense is that MN Hockey will be closed next season, we will have an exodus. Kids/parents aren't sitting out a year hoping little Johnny and his groups of 10 in MN will benefit from drills if anyplace else is playing hockey. Any AAA, travel, or juniors programs that promise hockey will be flooded. Private rinks in open states...a Utopia.

Who thinks Canada will not push the envelope?
Three days ago..."Hockey Canada has lifted its ban on sanctioned activities and is allowing the country's 13 member organizations to individually determine when it's safe to return to action. The move is a first step toward resuming play after Hockey Canada cancelled all activities under its banner March 12 because of the COVID-19 pandemic."

Space race, arms race, get my kid back on the ice race. The sacrifices these kids and parents have been making for years to get their kids somewhere in hockey won't bat an eye at the threat of covid 19. Some people ship their kids off at 14 years old to billet with strangers. They spend tens of thousands on travel hockey, camps, and equipment. They enroll them in on-line schools, they quit jobs and move cities, states, and maybe countries.
Playing hockey is a calculated risk parents have been weighing since day one. The stats/numbers for Covid19 in these age groups...
Great post! Very accurate analysis to the unfortunate realities of youth sports and, more specifically, competitive youth sports. And, it is extremely disappointing and sad that parents are putting the less than 5% chance their son or daughter will ever play even junior hockey (let alone DIII or DI) over the potential health of themselves or their son's or daughter's grandparents or great-grandparents. Or, that tourney organizers will continue to put the health of hundreds of kids, coaches, parents, and grandparents in the pursuit of the almighty dollar. As was stated just a few posts ago, the reason why those other states are opening as fast and to the degree they are is purely political. I challenge anyone to provide the name of even one legitimate researcher/scientist/doctor that supports the way they're being opened. Unfortunately, this forum's rules prevent me from commenting on that in as direct a fashion as I would like. :mrgreen:

This leads directly into Blueblood's comments to my earlier post. First Blueblood (and others), I agree that basketball should be on the "high risk" list. Bluebird, as for your possible conspiracy theory about why basketball isn't on the high risk list, I'll wait to read a bit more before I buy into your theory. :wink: Don't get me wrong, it's a fact that there are far more ex or current basketball people in positions of leadership throughout the MSHSL than any other sport.

Next Blueblood, yes, "profit motive".... I have no problem if you make a living off of youth sports. As long as that doesn't force parents and players to put themselves at unnecessary risk during a once every 100 years global pandemic. OK, are you technically "forcing" them? No. But, as HockeyCrazy so eloquently stated, there are enough parents that are so afraid of their child being "left behind" (even though it won't matter to literally 98% of them) that they'll put them at risk -- yes, very limited risk -- just to prevent that possibility. Don't get me wrong, I respect and understand that many people have tied their living to the youth sports industry. Guess what, I have as well and for almost 30 years. I'm making zero money as long as their isn't a season so, trust me, I understand the economic challenges as well as anyone on these forums. However, I'm not going to put my own personal situation in front of the completely preventable loss of another human's life. Sorry, not how I was raised. If you're experiencing financial hardship, than do what I did and apply for unemployment. Even self-employed/independent contractors can get money now. Remember, it's a "ONCE EVERY HUNDRED YEAR PANDEMIC". It's OK to ask and accept help if you need it. And, things look very promising on both the vaccine and therapeutic fronts, with even people like Fauci now saying it looks promising for 100 million doses of an effective vaccine by January. That doesn't mean we definitely won't lose a season but, I promise, none of our kids will die if they don't play organized sports for even an entire year. Because remember, only 3% will ever play DI hockey anyway... :roll:

Next, the vast, vast majority of those in our streets the last 10 days are NOT rioters. They are peaceful protesters but no, they aren't getting a "free pass". They are obviously increasing they're risk of contracting the disease and, we'll see in about 2-4 weeks if that's true. Also, if you haven't noticed, unlike the protesters at various state capitals a few weeks ago, the vast majority were/are wearing masks.

Blueblood, you said you wanted "proof" of the science behind "X number of people at Y event". Not sure exactly what you're referring to -- the recent protests, the number of people at an outdoor Little League game or soccer match or, a indoor sporting event. If you're talking specifically about indoor, I already have as I linked to an article in my previous post about the latest information regarding indoor risk of spread. The link is to an article in Science Magazine that provides the latest info on how Covid spreads, especially in indoor scenarios. I've got a great idea, why don't you actually read it.. You just might learn something. :shock: If you're talking about the protests, yes, every one of them is going against every state and CDC guideline for public gatherings. A couple questions for you. One, where were your concerns about people protesting when all of those groups were gathering at the various state houses to protest the stay-at-home orders? Second, you do realize that not one state that has opened up, has done so in reaching the CDC's guidelines for when it's acceptable to do so. Where's your outrage about that policy being ignored? Next --and far and away the most important of the three -- I hope you can at least acknowledge that we are at a seminal moment in this nation's history. That being the case, I think the vast majority of our elected leaders understand that they don't have much ability to keep people off of the streets in this specific situation, with these specific circumstances as long as they're acting peacefully.

Finally, as I've also stated before, I serve in a secondary administrative position with a Canadian Tier II junior league and receive much information from Hockey Canada leadership. I hadn't heard about their recent decision to move to their next phase of return to play. I've done a little reading, as well as made a few calls today and, the decision to move control to the 13 organizations is stipulated by the fact that any type of return to play will be at the discretion of each organization's regional public health authorities. Trust me when I say that the Canadian Health authorities will be even more cautious and deliberate than even our state has been. Thus, I actually wouldn't be so sure that just because all of Canada is as hockey crazy as we are, doesn't mean they will be going full bore long before we will.

blueblood
Posts: 2545
Joined: Fri May 26, 2006 8:36 am

Re: Will there be high school hockey for 2020-2021?

Post by blueblood » Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:44 pm

WHO reports Asymptomatic spread of coronavirus is very rare.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asympto ... -says.html

#OpenMN
Play Like a Champion Today

blueblood
Posts: 2545
Joined: Fri May 26, 2006 8:36 am

Re: Will there be high school hockey for 2020-2021?

Post by blueblood » Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:51 pm

WOM:

I read you article. Now you can read mine.
Play Like a Champion Today

ThatMNHockeyGuy62
Posts: 464
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:44 am

Re: Will there be high school hockey for 2020-2021?

Post by ThatMNHockeyGuy62 » Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:13 pm

blueblood wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:44 pm
WHO reports Asymptomatic spread of coronavirus is very rare.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asympto ... -says.html

#OpenMN
Thanks for the article BB. This info has been trickling out over the last couple of weeks but it’s nice to see it more into the mainstream. Also explains why kids don’t see to spread it as often if they are asymptomatic cases more often. What’s far more likely it appears is that what were previously thought to be asymptomatic cases were people with mild enough symptoms to go out and not be “noticeably symptomatic,” especially when 3-4 months ago still the primary mindset of most people was to just work through it. Tough it out.

7TIMECHAMPS
Posts: 244
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:58 pm

Re: Will there be high school hockey for 2020-2021?

Post by 7TIMECHAMPS » Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:20 pm

What would be your opinion if it were to be proven that child to adult transmission is extremely rare? There is some pretty good preliminary evidence that is suggesting this. Notably in Iceland (where they never shut schools down) there is not one documented case of transmission from child to adult. Also, so far it seems to be going pretty good for most countries in Europe that have opened schools. We will see what happens but if I was you I wouldn't be so sure of myself. There have been aspects to this that have been presented to us as factual and arguments have been based on those "facts" that have since been modified (see getting the virus from surfaces and asymptomatic carriers). Read the article below.

https://prospect.org/coronavirus/we-nee ... n-schools/

ThatMNHockeyGuy62
Posts: 464
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:44 am

Re: Will there be high school hockey for 2020-2021?

Post by ThatMNHockeyGuy62 » Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:36 pm

7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:20 pm
What would be your opinion if it were to be proven that child to adult transmission is extremely rare? There is some pretty good preliminary evidence that is suggesting this. Notably in Iceland (where they never shut schools down) there is not one documented case of transmission from child to adult. Also, so far it seems to be going pretty good for most countries in Europe that have opened schools. We will see what happens but if I was you I wouldn't be so sure of myself. There have been aspects to this that have been presented to us as factual and arguments have been based on those "facts" that have since been modified (see getting the virus from surfaces and asymptomatic carriers). Read the article below.

https://prospect.org/coronavirus/we-nee ... n-schools/
I brought this up on this thread multiple times over the past few weeks and have largely only received crickets. Only real response I’ve gotten was that Europe has better testing and tracing, which is true, but ignores the child to adult transmission rarity.

grindiangrad-80
Posts: 2484
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:00 pm

Re: Will there be high school hockey for 2020-2021?

Post by grindiangrad-80 » Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:41 pm

.00043% of the US population has died from Covid -19. The average age of the deceased is 83. This probably has a huge effect on the upcoming high school hockey season.

Sorry if I’m not seeing that.

ClassAGuy
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:51 pm

Re: Will there be high school hockey for 2020-2021?

Post by ClassAGuy » Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:36 am

grindiangrad-80 wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:41 pm
.00043% of the US population has died from Covid -19. The average age of the deceased is 83. This probably has a huge effect on the upcoming high school hockey season.

Sorry if I’m not seeing that.
Grind what are not seeing?

Again, I am not even debating Covid-19 and its impact on people.

Here is what I do know its June 9th and we are still stuck in pods of 10. The MN Department of Health which will impact the MSHSL's choice due to liability reasons just this past weekend declared hockey as one of the few at "HIGH RISK" sports.

We saw what happened when the first wave of Covid-19 hit to SPring sports even though its debatable if it would have effected high school kids.

College like the U of M announced they will reopen but earlier this Fall to try to end at Thankgiving time... WHY??

The predictions are that a second wave is coming.... in the WINTER!! I don't even agree with that but I know if we even see a spike this Winter bam things will get shut down... Why does the NBA, NHL MLB all want to be done by Novemeber because of a fear of a second wave.

You have already seen how the Government has handled Covid-19 not saying I agree with it but it is what it is. The MN Department of Health labeling Hockey as a HIGH RISK.. A Second Wave hitting the US this Winter...

What exactly are you not seeing and how this might have maybe an impact of High School Hockey which depends on Schools and a High School League who will be listening to the GOVERNMENT and the MN DEPARTMENT HEALTH.

I hope I am wrong I think kids are fine its my opinion which honesty means nothing because the people's opinions that matter are the MSHSL and the MN Department of Health and if you haven't been seeing it hat makes things more tricky come this winter if a second wave happens...

I want hockey but to just say you don't see it after 7 pages of debate what on earth are you not seeing and how this might impact high school hockey rather or not you agree on Covid-19 fine but we still have to be open to the idea it may impact hockey this winter because of the government's response to it.

elliott70
Posts: 13668
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Bemidji

Re: Will there be high school hockey for 2020-2021?

Post by elliott70 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:58 am

blueblood wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:44 pm
WHO reports Asymptomatic spread of coronavirus is very rare.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asympto ... -says.html

#OpenMN
WHO steps back from this statement.
Not enough is known to make this claim....

blueblood
Posts: 2545
Joined: Fri May 26, 2006 8:36 am

Re: Will there be high school hockey for 2020-2021?

Post by blueblood » Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:13 pm

Walked back or pressured by outside influences who didn't like the response?

If not enough info how can they predict future outbreaks?

Hmmmmm........ :-k
Play Like a Champion Today

elliott70
Posts: 13668
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Bemidji

Re: Will there be high school hockey for 2020-2021?

Post by elliott70 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:28 pm

blueblood wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:13 pm
Walked back or pressured by outside influences who didn't like the response?

If not enough info how can they predict future outbreaks?

Hmmmmm........ :-k
I have no idea.
The WHO has no idea.
Who does have an idea?

WestMetro
Posts: 3048
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:08 pm

Re: Will there be high school hockey for 2020-2021?

Post by WestMetro » Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:30 pm

7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:20 pm
What would be your opinion if it were to be proven that child to adult transmission is extremely rare? There is some pretty good preliminary evidence that is suggesting this. Notably in Iceland (where they never shut schools down) there is not one documented case of transmission from child to adult. Also, so far it seems to be going pretty good for most countries in Europe that have opened schools. We will see what happens but if I was you I wouldn't be so sure of myself. There have been aspects to this that have been presented to us as factual and arguments have been based on those "facts" that have since been modified (see getting the virus from surfaces and asymptomatic carriers). Read the article below.

https://prospect.org/coronavirus/we-nee ... n-schools/
Maybe so. But coincidentally the only person I know personally fairly well who had Covid appeared to get it from their kids. Both kids were infected at day care , Kids tested positive , then both parents tested positive . They are in their 30s, symptoms were mild and everyone recovered fairly easily .

ThatMNHockeyGuy62
Posts: 464
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:44 am

Re: Will there be high school hockey for 2020-2021?

Post by ThatMNHockeyGuy62 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:54 pm

WestMetro wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:30 pm
7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:20 pm
What would be your opinion if it were to be proven that child to adult transmission is extremely rare? There is some pretty good preliminary evidence that is suggesting this. Notably in Iceland (where they never shut schools down) there is not one documented case of transmission from child to adult. Also, so far it seems to be going pretty good for most countries in Europe that have opened schools. We will see what happens but if I was you I wouldn't be so sure of myself. There have been aspects to this that have been presented to us as factual and arguments have been based on those "facts" that have since been modified (see getting the virus from surfaces and asymptomatic carriers). Read the article below.

https://prospect.org/coronavirus/we-nee ... n-schools/
Maybe so. But coincidentally the only person I know personally fairly well who had Covid appeared to get it from their kids. Both kids were infected at day care , Kids tested positive , then both parents tested positive . They are in their 30s, symptoms were mild and everyone recovered fairly easily .
In almost every case where they’ve done genetic testing of the virus’s transmission in cases of this kind, it’s been the opposite. Many times the family thought it was the reverse (as the family you mentioned thinks), but genome tested showed it wasn’t the case. Parents are infected and pass to kids, who may pass to other kids. Just because kids tested positive first doesn’t mean they contracted it first. Without knowing this family’s situation, there is a very strong statistical likelihood this was the case with them.

WestMetro
Posts: 3048
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:08 pm

Re: Will there be high school hockey for 2020-2021?

Post by WestMetro » Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:33 pm

ThatMNHockeyGuy62 wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:54 pm
WestMetro wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:30 pm
7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:20 pm
What would be your opinion if it were to be proven that child to adult transmission is extremely rare? There is some pretty good preliminary evidence that is suggesting this. Notably in Iceland (where they never shut schools down) there is not one documented case of transmission from child to adult. Also, so far it seems to be going pretty good for most countries in Europe that have opened schools. We will see what happens but if I was you I wouldn't be so sure of myself. There have been aspects to this that have been presented to us as factual and arguments have been based on those "facts" that have since been modified (see getting the virus from surfaces and asymptomatic carriers). Read the article below.

https://prospect.org/coronavirus/we-nee ... n-schools/
Maybe so. But coincidentally the only person I know personally fairly well who had Covid appeared to get it from their kids. Both kids were infected at day care , Kids tested positive , then both parents tested positive . They are in their 30s, symptoms were mild and everyone recovered fairly easily .
In almost every case where they’ve done genetic testing of the virus’s transmission in cases of this kind, it’s been the opposite. Many times the family thought it was the reverse (as the family you mentioned thinks), but genome tested showed it wasn’t the case. Parents are infected and pass to kids, who may pass to other kids. Just because kids tested positive first doesn’t mean they contracted it first. Without knowing this family’s situation, there is a very strong statistical likelihood this was the case with them.
————
That’s what I thought too .

But their day care called them and said infection was being passed around and they should test their kids . That’s what started things for their family . I have No reason to doubt them .

ThatMNHockeyGuy62
Posts: 464
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:44 am

Re: Will there be high school hockey for 2020-2021?

Post by ThatMNHockeyGuy62 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:13 pm

Interesting WM. I’m not saying I don’t believe you! I’m just surprised it hasn’t made the news. Just even today I looked up any daycare cases having been spread and couldn’t find one story of it in the entire US other than two daycares in Texas that each had one case... which is not great of course but also wouldn’t exactly consider them cases of “spread.”

grindiangrad-80
Posts: 2484
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:00 pm

Re: Will there be high school hockey for 2020-2021?

Post by grindiangrad-80 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:28 pm

ClassAGuy wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:36 am
grindiangrad-80 wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:41 pm
.00043% of the US population has died from Covid -19. The average age of the deceased is 83. This probably has a huge effect on the upcoming high school hockey season.

Sorry if I’m not seeing that.
Grind what are not seeing?

Again, I am not even debating Covid-19 and its impact on people.

Here is what I do know its June 9th and we are still stuck in pods of 10. The MN Department of Health which will impact the MSHSL's choice due to liability reasons just this past weekend declared hockey as one of the few at "HIGH RISK" sports.

We saw what happened when the first wave of Covid-19 hit to SPring sports even though its debatable if it would have effected high school kids.

College like the U of M announced they will reopen but earlier this Fall to try to end at Thankgiving time... WHY??

The predictions are that a second wave is coming.... in the WINTER!! I don't even agree with that but I know if we even see a spike this Winter bam things will get shut down... Why does the NBA, NHL MLB all want to be done by Novemeber because of a fear of a second wave.

You have already seen how the Government has handled Covid-19 not saying I agree with it but it is what it is. The MN Department of Health labeling Hockey as a HIGH RISK.. A Second Wave hitting the US this Winter...

What exactly are you not seeing and how this might have maybe an impact of High School Hockey which depends on Schools and a High School League who will be listening to the GOVERNMENT and the MN DEPARTMENT HEALTH.

I hope I am wrong I think kids are fine its my opinion which honesty means nothing because the people's opinions that matter are the MSHSL and the MN Department of Health and if you haven't been seeing it hat makes things more tricky come this winter if a second wave happens...

I want hockey but to just say you don't see it after 7 pages of debate what on earth are you not seeing and how this might impact high school hockey rather or not you agree on Covid-19 fine but we still have to be open to the idea it may impact hockey this winter because of the government's response to it.
I’m probably really dumb. But your response is hard to figure. I honestly can’t tell what your point is. I’m not trying to be difficult. I just need a little clarity.

Wise Old Man
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2019 8:11 pm

Re: Will there be high school hockey for 2020-2021?

Post by Wise Old Man » Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:37 pm

blueblood wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:51 pm
WOM:

I read you article. Now you can read mine.
Bb, I actually had read it prior to you posting it. :D But, very good article and, IF kids aren't as asymptomatic spreaders to the degree we may have thought then I'll be the first guy to say let's re-evaluate keeping schools closed or, not allowing team sports to open in a much bigger way. However, the first thing that went through my mind was, let's see what some of the other major global health care entities, researchers, or scientific voices say in reaction to that. And, as we've all seen today, not only did the WHO walk it back but, literally not one of those other prominent entities or individuals was willing to agree with that position. :mrgreen: Oh, and to your comment about the WHO being pressured by other groups to walk it back?...Our own CDC disagreed and they have generally been taking their orders from our current administration. That kind of pressure? :wink:

Next (combining multiple responses here), to 7TIME; if you were addressing me in your post from 6:20 last night, trust me, I am hoping beyond hope that things change in a way that either proves we (the "quarantiners" and the "listen to the scientist folks") had it wrong to a degree that allows us to go back far closer to normal than we are now and, in a way that doesn't genuinely put many others at unnecessary risk, I'll gladly eat as many crows as I need to. :mrgreen: And, the article you provided presents very interesting information and ideas along those lines. Remember, I actually provide what I do for my family in a full time capacity through this game. And again, I have a 13 year old who truly loves the game and wants to play it. Even before I spent over $2K on those shooting tiles for my entire garage floor two weeks ago, he was shooting pucks and stick handling at least 5 days a week. Now, trust me, he NEEDS IT.... :wink: However, if we don't have a "normal" season, he will be devastated. You know what though, he will live. And, we (he & I will make the best of it). We'll do our backyard rink and, go to the neighborhood rinks if they're open and we'll make the best of it.

To grindiangrad; both of the stats you quote are accurate. Or, close to accurate although you didn't provide a link to where you got the info. Regardless, it's completely your right to use those figures in the way you did. And, we all know why you did. You don't feel this virus/pandemic is as serious as others think it is, nor that it was worth to shelter-in-place to the degree or length of time we did. Especially in Minnesota. And, those numbers paint a very specific picture regarding the virus that obviously helps make YOUR argument. For the umpteenth time, please provide the name of ANY researcher, scientist, medical specialist with a legitimate expertise around this/these types of viruses and their spread that approved of opening up both when we did or to the degree we did. Remember, not one state has met all of the parameters the CDC set for states to re-open before they did. Including ours.

I get it, you're trying to make the comparison between how many people die of other causes but, we don't take the same degree of precautions that we have with Covid and, thus have the same degree of hardship, especially economically. First, you do realize most of those deaths -- even with auto deaths to a certain degree -- the in-the-moment or long term consistent decision making of person who dies was completely within their control AND, more importantly, their actions don't legitimately threaten the life of another human being either directly or even between 2-4 levels away from them. The medical/scientific community isn't using those types of comparisons to measure the risk because they understand it's a legitimate apples to oranges comparison and not a valid way to look at it.

To be clear, even using your approach, IF we hadn't locked down, almost every predictive model -- even the one the administration was using -- were predicting at least a million to 1.5 million deaths. There's still a very good chance we break the 250,000 death mark by Jan. 1. According to the website Statista, we currently only have about 6,200 confirmed flu-only deaths between Feb. 1 and May 31st. Versus approximately 87,000 Covid-only deaths (official CDC totals are always a couple weeks behind Worldmeters or John's Hopkins). Oh, and don't forget, almost every expert believes that we are under-counting by at least 10%. Here's the link to the Statista website:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/111 ... nd-flu-us/

What's even more disingenuous about using the death numbers the way you did is, we're only 3.5 months from where we started counting deaths. Shouldn't we wait until at least a full year has passed so we can make a proper comparison? Now, I will acknowledge that there are new studies just out, albeit using strictly circumstantial evidence -- showing much higher google searches for cough, flu, diarrhea, and others in China, as well as satellite imagery that shows parking lots of Chinese hospitals being far more full of cars than they normally would be...in October. Even if it didn't start until November, there's obviously a good chance there were Covid deaths in the U.S. as early as December. However, until the medical/scientific community does a legitimate study on deaths that were counted as flu or, the cause of death was undetermined, I'm going to assume that since we had our peak in mid-April that if there were Covid deaths before Feb. 1, there weren't enough to be statistically relevant.

What's unfortunate is that -- and I hope I'm dead wrong here but, based on the fact that many of you on the other side of this debate seem to repeat many of the same things on a regular basis (ok, some on this side do too, even me) -- I've actually linked to articles on research, and studies that, if you're willing to open your mind in any way, shape, or form to new ideas or information that might actually go against the narrative you currently have and, maybe even change your mind :shock: -- almost none of you even mention the specifics of what I've posted. Maybe it's because you have read what I've posted and, deep down inside, you know it disproves your point/opinion/narrative but, you've become so afraid of admitting you might be wrong/made a mistake 3 years ago that you just can't bring yourself to admit it. :mrgreen: Either that or, you simply didn't read it because you didn't want to take the chance that you might learn something new. Or, my posts are simply so darn long, you quit reading after the first paragraph. 8)

Finally, to TMNHockey; your point about the genetic testing showing kids rarely giving it to parents is intriguing. Can you please forward where you read that? Would genuinely like to read that. One last thing I want to ask those on the opposite side of the debate; I'm genuinely interested in why you are so untrustworthy about the majority of what the science is saying about this situation as you seem to be. These are literally the best minds in the world working on this.

As I stated recently, I admit there have been numerous missteps and mistakes about many aspects of this disease. Let's be honest, things are changing literally on a day to day basis. Just look at the last two days. I get that's very frustrating. It is for me as well. However, if you think these people have put in 60 plus hour weeks since early March and doing their absolute best to get it right as often as possible, then I've got some beach front property in Death Valley to sell you. Yes, even people with this much expertise and experience aren't freaking perfect. It's a brand new virus. And, because of how new it is, we are again learning new things literally every day -- and probably will be for years -- even after we get a vaccine. Thus, even these high level experts are going make more mistakes than normal. That doesn't mean those mistakes are politically motivated.

I won't assume that any of you are ardent supporters of the current administration BUT, if any of you are, WHY are you so willing to give it the benefit of the doubt and maintain your support, despite extremely and obvious egregious missteps and comments on an almost everyday basis? I won't even attempt to address the lost 8 weeks of preparation regarding this virus, nor the recent scientific report that states if we had locked down even one week earlier, it would've saved approximately 346,000 lives, 54,000 if we did it two week earlier... Link to Forbes article;

https://www.forbes.com/sites/isabeltogo ... acdd4a42f1

Yet, if some scientist, doctor, or researcher, makes an honest mistake, even a second or third one, they immediately lose any and all credibility in your eyes from that point on. That's an incredible inconsistency in the application of logic and reasoning. More importantly, in all my reading and watching about this situation, I haven't felt that any more than maybe a handful of them were displaying any obvious political agenda. No offense, but only a couple here have any kind of legitimate medical training and experience. And, I genuinely try to give their opinions and comments honest consideration. Any ways, I hope all of stay safe.

goaliedad31
Posts: 176
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:17 am

Re: Will there be high school hockey for 2020-2021?

Post by goaliedad31 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:07 am

A lot of back and forth about what this disease really is and isn't. There are a lot of unknowns. To answer the question, "will we have a hockey season?" I would say no --- if we respond this way to every new virus or disease, there will never be a hockey season EVER. We have had bird flu, SARS, Ebola. Every couple of years there is some new scary disease. Never have we acted this way. And if we continue to respond in this manner, we will never have hockey seasons, much less anything else again.
What do I mean by "this way?' Turning our rights over to government. Acting like sheep and giving over our rights to government. We live in a Republic, we should have a voice. We shouldn't have to abide by "guidelines" issued unilaterally by one person, who is abusing "emergency powers.
Let me explain were we are.

What happened in Minnesota? Governor Walz declared an emergency under Chapter 12.31. To assume this emergency power, he must show that "local government resources are inadequate to handle the situation." He has 5 days to address the situation. After that, if the legislature is in session, he can ask for an extended 30 days. He asks that of an Executive Committee made up of state leaders who currently are all Democrats (The Attorney General and others). The legislature can only take that authority away by an affirmative vote by both bodies. The Senate (controlled by the Republicans) voted to do that, the House (controlled by the Democrats) did not. So he received his 30 days. When that 30 days ran out, Walz released his "model" that showed we would have 27,000 deaths by July. So of course we did not have the "local government resources" to address that situation and Executive Committee gave him another 30 days. At the end of the next 30 days, Walz purchased a $6 million morgue because our "government resources" were "inadequate to address our emergency needs." So again the Executive Committee extended his emergency powers.

So June 12th, this Friday, the Governor's 3rd extension of his emergency powers runs out. What will be the new emergency? The new scarcity? The new excuse to extend his powers.

My point is, businesses or the legislature, not just the Governor, should be making the decisions and guidelines to respond, or not respond, to this disease. It really isn't that different than diseases we have had before. I think as we learn more we are finding that out.

Benjamin Franklin said "Any society that will give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

We cannot be sheep and give up our rights and liberties or we will live by "guidelines" of how we can play or not play hockey. Maybe businesses choose to operate at maximum capacity and have no sanitizing efforts. People don't feel comfortable and they don't go into that business. That is the market. Or the legislature comes together and passes laws after input from their constitutes, that is how our system of government functions.

On June 12th, the "guidelines of youth sports" should go away. They do not have the power of law. Are we going to let the Governor dictate whether we have a season or not? Are we going to act like sheep and let him continue to abuse his "emergency powers?" Or are we going to stop acting like sheep and take our freedoms back.
The answer to whether we have a season or not is in our hands.

HockeyCrazy1970
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:55 pm

Re: Will there be high school hockey for 2020-2021?

Post by HockeyCrazy1970 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:33 am

Well said Goaliedad31!
Alberta moves up their phase 2 by a week to start June 12. They can have 50 on the ice.

goaliedad31
Posts: 176
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:17 am

Re: Will there be high school hockey for 2020-2021?

Post by goaliedad31 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:36 am

Crazy: I am happy for Alberta, but I think you miss my point.
Minnesota doesn't have any laws laying out the guidelines. Nor do most of these states or Providences. They are executive orders. The one state that has legally challenged the authority of the Governor, Wisconsin, is completely open because the Courts determined that the Governor did not have the authority to issue these guidelines and lockdowns. Minnesota's law is a little tougher, but come June 12, Minnesota's Governor's powers, and thus the Executive Orders, shouldn't have the power of law. They should go away.
Our systems of laws protect our freedoms. We shouldn't turn them over to one person. If we allow Walz to continue to extend these powers when will they end. What is the definition of emergency? There is no scarcity of local government resources at this point so why are emergency powers needed? The Minnesota people should stand up and say NO. The power to respond to the emergency lies with the legislature. The legislature is the people's voice under our Constitution.

Unless the legislature passes laws or guidelines limiting the number of people who can be on a rink at one time, or if kids can play games or not, it is up to USA Hockey, MN Hockey and the MSHSL to determine if we play. It is up to the rink managers to figure out a safe way to operate their rinks. Then it will be up to the free people of MN to determine if they want their kids to play or not.

Hunters1993
Posts: 373
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:22 am

Re: Will there be high school hockey for 2020-2021?

Post by Hunters1993 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:58 am

Is our state this egocentric? Are we all about me, my family, my kids hockey? Stop it and pull your head out of the hole you stuck it in back in March after the hockey tourney!


Think about society and what is best for all! What will keep the less deaths to happen. What will get us out of this PANDEMIC safest! The world does not revolve around hockey families! You guys are making me sick!
How many c-chip games will it take Hawks?

goaliedad31
Posts: 176
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:17 am

Re: Will there be high school hockey for 2020-2021?

Post by goaliedad31 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:29 am

Hunter:

Nothing in my comments weighed in on whether the guidelines were right or wrong. The guidelines may, or may not, be necessary for public health and safety. My point was about our individual freedoms and the rule of law. And who should be making these decisions. We live in a representative Republic, not a monarchy. I am not willing to hand over my rights and freedoms for a virus. These viruses come every 4-6 years. The response should be within the law to protect not only our health but also our freedoms.

Locked