Association not allowing privates on top teams

The Latest 400 or so Topics

Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)

SEC Scotty
Posts: 675
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:58 am
Location: East Metro

Re: Association not allowing privates on top teams

Post by SEC Scotty » Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:49 pm

Why doesn't Hill-Murray list where their players are from in their media guide? They should at least do that. That would shine a light on the youth hockey associations who developed their players.

Puck8
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:31 am

Re: Association not allowing privates on top teams

Post by Puck8 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:40 pm

SEC Scotty wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:49 pm
Why doesn't Hill-Murray list where their players are from in their media guide? They should at least do that. That would shine a light on the youth hockey associations who developed their players.
Or they were such poor systems that the parents and student felt that HM (or whatever private school) was a better fit. This idea that the youth associations are the panacea of all good is ridiculous. With so many other options that develop the top skaters, giving the credit to the hometown association is a bit of a reach.

Trout
Posts: 166
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:31 pm

Re: Association not allowing privates on top teams

Post by Trout » Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:47 pm

This goes way back in Stillwater. In recent times, the Housley years were amazingly contentious. I remember one year when HM entire starting lineup were Stillwater youth hockey players ... and they went to state.

Personally, I am a fan of public HS but will say this. With a lot of talent over the years Stillwater has never won a boys state championship AT ANY LEVEL! For a program that is in the top 4 or 5 largest in the state that is almost unbelievable!

They should focus on winning and the players would want to stay together. They have broken through and gone to the high school state tournament twice in the past 6 years. They were prohibitive favorites a few years ago and lost to HM in sections. It looks like new coach Zannon and team are are having a great year at the high school this year, maybe this is their year.

Everyone should remember - Youth hockey is just that, YOUTH hockey. There are no guarantees those kids are going to the community high school (look at Edina, Wayzata etc... they lose a LOT of players too), and to my knowledge there is no direct tie to the High School for SAHA other than it is the same community. It is funny some of the most vocal folks in the past against HM ended up leaving Stillwater and sending their kids to HM because they felt they were getting the shaft in Stillwater. Hockey parents are absolutely crazy!

The reality is this-
1. There are families in Stillwater that are HM family's. They will be going to HM no matter what. Let them play where they belong as kids, get to know them, then beat them once they leave! The kids aren't going to get a future game advantage by learning the Stillwater way! HM has an advantage of getting kids from everywhere because they have a reputation for making it to state. If you beat them that will be diminished.
2. There are kids that are on the fence ... be a solid program, win at the youth level, and they will want to stay with their friends.
3. There are Stillwater families who will always be Stillwater families. Be proud of your program and be a positive influence on all the kids on your team. They are kids!

SEC Scotty
Posts: 675
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:58 am
Location: East Metro

Re: Association not allowing privates on top teams

Post by SEC Scotty » Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:38 pm

Puck8 wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:40 pm
SEC Scotty wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:49 pm
Why doesn't Hill-Murray list where their players are from in their media guide? They should at least do that. That would shine a light on the youth hockey associations who developed their players.
Or they were such poor systems that the parents and student felt that HM (or whatever private school) was a better fit. This idea that the youth associations are the panacea of all good is ridiculous. With so many other options that develop the top skaters, giving the credit to the hometown association is a bit of a reach.
I didn't say they had to give credit to the youth association. Just acknowledge where the kids grew up in their media guide.

Puck8
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:31 am

Re: Association not allowing privates on top teams

Post by Puck8 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:53 pm

SEC Scotty wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:38 pm
Puck8 wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:40 pm
SEC Scotty wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:49 pm
Why doesn't Hill-Murray list where their players are from in their media guide? They should at least do that. That would shine a light on the youth hockey associations who developed their players.
Or they were such poor systems that the parents and student felt that HM (or whatever private school) was a better fit. This idea that the youth associations are the panacea of all good is ridiculous. With so many other options that develop the top skaters, giving the credit to the hometown association is a bit of a reach.
I didn't say they had to give credit to the youth association. Just acknowledge where the kids grew up in their media guide.
“ That would shine a light on the youth hockey associations who developed their players.”

Scotty - That’s a distinction without a difference.

SAHA blatantly pursuing banishing a youth player to a lower level because they suspect the player is going to or is already going to a private school is a slippery slope. What’s next? Players must participate in the association sponsored STP? They must not play a second sport? The fact that they are even asking this question is inexcusable. Goes against all we hear from MN and USA Hockey relative to inclusion and “It’s for the kids”.

nu2hockey
Posts: 641
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:19 pm

Re: Association not allowing privates on top teams

Post by nu2hockey » Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:20 pm

With all the bleating about community-based hockey, this certainly flies in the face of that....

Look, a simple solution to this:

All private schools should be allowed their own Mn/USA association for hockey...any kid, regardless of where they live, could play ...even if they don't attend...yep, that is over the top...it will never happen...the ridiculous notion that residency basically indentures a kid/family is silly at best...

The only thing this proves is that Stillwater Hockey Assoc is definitely NOT looking out for all members of their community...that's too bad

SCBlueLiner
Posts: 640
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:11 pm

Re: Association not allowing privates on top teams

Post by SCBlueLiner » Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:50 pm

Let's hypothetically say that is a possibility, a H-M or AHA, or BSM, etc. youth program, a simple rule would be those programs are restricted to kids that go to Catholic grade schools/Jr High. It's not that crazy as Fargo has the Fargo Angels program and there are many cities across the country that have Catholic grade school leagues across all sports.

I'm not advocating that as a solution, BTW. I am just pointing that out as a response to those that say the local association is the feeder program to the local public HS program exclusively. If that's your stance then you should be fine with the establishment of those Catholic youth programs.

We're making this harder than it is but this is a place of discussion, so discuss. The simplest solution is to treat youth hockey as youth hockey and be fair to every kid in the association regardless of whether they attend a public or private school. Simple as that, treat kids as kids and be fair to them all.

Puck8
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:31 am

Re: Association not allowing privates on top teams

Post by Puck8 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:13 pm

SCBlueLiner wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:50 pm
Let's hypothetically say that is a possibility, a H-M or AHA, or BSM, etc. youth program, a simple rule would be those programs are restricted to kids that go to Catholic grade schools/Jr High. It's not that crazy as Fargo has the Fargo Angels program and there are many cities across the country that have Catholic grade school leagues across all sports.

I'm not advocating that as a solution, BTW. I am just pointing that out as a response to those that say the local association is the feeder program to the local public HS program exclusively. If that's your stance then you should be fine with the establishment of those Catholic youth programs.

We're making this harder than it is but this is a place of discussion, so discuss. The simplest solution is to treat youth hockey as youth hockey and be fair to every kid in the association regardless of whether they attend a public or private school. Simple as that, treat kids as kids and be fair to them all.
I like your logic.
Might be a long shot, but if this is indicative of how SAHA operates, it’s no wonder they have seen an exile of talent.

Sparlimb
Posts: 1782
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 7:11 am

Re: Association not allowing privates on top teams

Post by Sparlimb » Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:39 pm

SEC Scotty wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:49 pm
Why doesn't Hill-Murray list where their players are from in their media guide? They should at least do that. That would shine a light on the youth hockey associations who developed their players.
They did for a long time. They also listed the height and weight of the girls, which quickly went by the wayside. They still might in the thicker media guide they give out at the beginning of the year (that has a little blurb on each player).

stpaul
Posts: 1100
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:26 am

Re: Association not allowing privates on top teams

Post by stpaul » Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:41 pm

This paranoia about kids that might or might not go to Hill-Murray goes way back in Stillwater. Housley, Sagissor, etc. kept it going and the association tries to punish those kids and families. It hasn't worked. It is particularly ridiculous in modern youth hockey with all of the options out there for programs and places to play.

defense
Posts: 1610
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:20 pm
Location: right here

Re: Association not allowing privates on top teams

Post by defense » Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:49 am

Pretty sure there are state level rules about a player not being able to participate in youth hockey after going to high school try outs. . Maybe it only applies to the VFW league??
Otter Hockey Rocks

Green and White Fan
Posts: 440
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2002 3:51 pm

Re: Association not allowing privates on top teams

Post by Green and White Fan » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:00 am

I can certainly understand and association not wanting to give a lot of ice time to a player who they know is not going to go into their high school system. One would have thought we would be immune from it way up north, but we had a youth player who was first liner at every level, played power play and penalty kill and every other shift late in games, who ended up leaving for a private school. SO you just never know. The association and schools loss is the ice time that is given to these players at the expense of others watching from the bench that will eventually end up in your high school system. Nothing much can be done about that other than association rules governing rolling lines etc. I guess.
We've got 7 yes we do, we've got 7, how about you!

Puck8
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:31 am

Re: Association not allowing privates on top teams

Post by Puck8 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:20 am

Green and White Fan wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:00 am
I can certainly understand and association not wanting to give a lot of ice time to a player who they know is not going to go into their high school system. One would have thought we would be immune from it way up north, but we had a youth player who was first liner at every level, played power play and penalty kill and every other shift late in games, who ended up leaving for a private school. SO you just never know. The association and schools loss is the ice time that is given to these players at the expense of others watching from the bench that will eventually end up in your high school system. Nothing much can be done about that other than association rules governing rolling lines etc. I guess.
How does the association lose? They took the parent’s money for years and I imagine had no issue when the kid was winning games for them. The high school is not entitled to receive in every player, oh I’m sorry, every GOOD player. There could be any number of reasons why a student athlete goes to a private school - perhaps it’s academics, athletics or social reasons. When a high performer goes elsewhere, I suggest the high school look internally to figure out why they are less appealing than other options. Or, I suppose the associations could survey all the kids when they are mites/squirts to see if they intend to stay through high school. Those who don’t are all sent to the B team. Preposterous? Not with some of the logic and rationalizations I’m seeing in this thread.

The Exiled One
Posts: 1770
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:34 am

Re: Association not allowing privates on top teams

Post by The Exiled One » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:59 am

Green and White Fan wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:00 am
The association and schools loss is the ice time that is given to these players at the expense of others watching from the bench that will eventually end up in your high school system.
So are peewee and bantam state championships meaningless?

"Sorry folks, I know that we probably would have won the Bantam AA Championship if we had the B1 goalie who had 12 shutouts this year and actually did the best in tryouts, but he attends a private HS, so you'll just have to deal with it. On the bright side, some of you will get to play HS hockey without having to suffer the indignity of playing alongside a private school kid in bantams. For the rest of you, thanks for sacrificing your chance at once-in-a-lifetime glory so that we can maintain our ridiculously punitive policy."

Puck8
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:31 am

Re: Association not allowing privates on top teams

Post by Puck8 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:07 pm

The Exiled One wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:59 am
Green and White Fan wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:00 am
The association and schools loss is the ice time that is given to these players at the expense of others watching from the bench that will eventually end up in your high school system.
So are peewee and bantam state championships meaningless?

"Sorry folks, I know that we probably would have won the Bantam AA Championship if we had the B1 goalie who had 12 shutouts this year and actually did the best in tryouts, but he attends a private HS, so you'll just have to deal with it. On the bright side, some of you will get to play HS hockey without having to suffer the indignity of playing alongside a private school kid in bantams. For the rest of you, thanks for sacrificing your chance at once-in-a-lifetime glory so that we can maintain our ridiculously punitive policy."
This.

Eagles93
Posts: 221
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 5:04 pm

Re: Association not allowing privates on top teams

Post by Eagles93 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:56 pm

Isn't this idea effectively what District 6 tried to do for kids that also played at Minnesota Made a while back? Which went to court and was struck down?

tourneytickssince59
Posts: 218
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:00 pm

Re: Association not allowing privates on top teams

Post by tourneytickssince59 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:12 pm

From Stillwater Softball Association by laws ( I know it's different governing rules than hockey)
A. Purpose
The Stillwater Area Fastpitch Association (SAFA or commonly referred to as Stillwater Fast Pitch) was established in 1984 to promote the development of a quality, competitive level of girls fast pitch softball in the St. Croix Valley Area. This program is committed to the development of potential Stillwater Area High School (SAHS) softball players.

H. Registration and Team Selection

1. In keeping with the stated purpose of this organization which is the development of potential Stillwater Area High School (SAHS) softball players, the following policy is intended to include girls who live in ISD 834 but who are attending a private school, a charter school or a public school but are not planning to attend or play varsity level softball at SAHS.

2. An attempt will be made to place these described players on an Association team roster if space is available.

3. The described players will not be placed on an association “A” team

4. Any exceptions to the described policy will require board approval.

SWPrez
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:48 am

Re: Association not allowing privates on top teams

Post by SWPrez » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:29 pm

Whether private or public, associations shouldn't be used as a two month training camp for kids planning on leaving. It messes up team and association chemistry (as this not only messes up the AA/A team, but any other teams that lose players to fill the holes left by the leaving players. To prevent this, as policy, once a kid steps on the ice for the first practice, the parents are liable for the whole seasons expenses up front. They are either in or out. A lot cheaper to find pre high school season hockey clinics than paying for a full season of bantams just to get your kid 10-15 games prior to high school. Associations should never, ever draw the line between public and private kids and treat them all equally.

ozz
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:30 am
Location: ER

Re: Association not allowing privates on top teams

Post by ozz » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:54 pm

SWPrez wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:29 pm
To prevent this, as policy, once a kid steps on the ice for the first practice, the parents are liable for the whole seasons expenses up front. They are either in or out. A lot cheaper to find pre high school season hockey clinics than paying for a full season of bantams just to get your kid 10-15 games prior to high school.
So, just as a hypothetical: If a Stillwater bantam freshman is asked by the Stillwater HS coaching staff, after the bantam season has already started, to skate captains' practices and tryout for the HS team (let's even say with the stated expectation that the kid would likely play mostly JV but get to dress a lot of games and practice with the varsity all year), his family should be forced to potentially take a big hit to the bank account or just decline the opportunity from his future coach? The decision to leave his team would already be so tough on the kid that adding a major financial impact on his parents' part seems almost cruel to the 14-year-old.

ozz
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:30 am
Location: ER

Re: Association not allowing privates on top teams

Post by ozz » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:57 pm

Yoopskater wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:36 am
Associations should be wholly independent from high schools. The exception may be if the school owns and runs the rink but not sure if that situation exists.
I'm almost sure Int'l Falls HS owns/runs Bronco Arena, but it's not the only rink in the town.

SEC Scotty
Posts: 675
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:58 am
Location: East Metro

Re: Association not allowing privates on top teams

Post by SEC Scotty » Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:23 pm

Sparlimb wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:39 pm
SEC Scotty wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:49 pm
Why doesn't Hill-Murray list where their players are from in their media guide? They should at least do that. That would shine a light on the youth hockey associations who developed their players.
They did for a long time. They also listed the height and weight of the girls, which quickly went by the wayside. They still might in the thicker media guide they give out at the beginning of the year (that has a little blurb on each player).
I can see where the girls weight might be an issue. :oops: I watch probably 5-10 Hill games a year and always find myself looking up kids on my phone to see where they are from. Most I know, some I don't.

Aldrich is my favorite venue for high school hockey and they draw top teams from all over the state. Most nights I sit on the North side, but I am way past the pissing match going on in this thread.
Oh and I will always pull for east side kids come state tourney time.

Puck8
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:31 am

Re: Association not allowing privates on top teams

Post by Puck8 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:55 pm

Any policy that is punitive, vindictive or black list in nature is absurd. The thread seems to have drifted to high school in general vs private high school. But the thought that a Bantam team will be hamstrung and confused or ‘chemistry’ will be broken because a player moves up is equally absurd. The attitude that the association should control the player is shameful. Any good coach should be happy for a player that attains the next level, no matter where that is.
But that’s just me 😀

dlow
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:08 pm

Re: Association not allowing privates on top teams

Post by dlow » Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:31 pm

1) Lots of politics in youth hockey so kind of respect people being open about their intentions. I'm guessing this is a proposal that one person or a small group in the association made to the board, so that doesn't mean it's being really seriously considered though.

2) My kid's former assoc. has basically this same policy informally but in favor of a local private and then several other privates get preferred treatment over the local public....

3) Not likely the right solution here but the problem of public school hockey sustaining itself long term is real. This is an upper middle class and wealthy family sport now so there does need to be real efforts to keep public school kids equally engaged, although that is much less of an issue for Stillwater since they have so many youth players.

thespellchecker
Posts: 293
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 10:42 pm

Re: Association not allowing privates on top teams

Post by thespellchecker » Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:55 pm

Private school HC should become board members of their best nearby association.. Run another STP SKOL
8-TIME weekly & 2-Time Season Pick Em Champ

SWPrez
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:48 am

Re: Association not allowing privates on top teams

Post by SWPrez » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:04 pm

ozz wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:54 pm

So, just as a hypothetical: If a Stillwater bantam freshman is asked by the Stillwater HS coaching staff, after the bantam season has already started, to skate captains' practices and tryout for the HS team (let's even say with the stated expectation that the kid would likely play mostly JV but get to dress a lot of games and practice with the varsity all year), his family should be forced to potentially take a big hit to the bank account or just decline the opportunity from his future coach? The decision to leave his team would already be so tough on the kid that adding a major financial impact on his parents' part seems almost cruel to the 14-year-old.
YES. Absolutely. The association shouldn't be used as a training camp for any high school player, public or private. If the player isn't committed to the team and the association, it is best that they move on at the beginning of the season and not disrupt the association program. An association could choose to play AA and after losing 3 or 4 that used the program for two months to ultimately play high school, end up with a team that is a strong B1 team at best. Not to mention they would pull up kids from the next lower team to fill these holes and those teams would be mismatched. Association should let high school coach know that this is the program. He is free to take kids if he wants, but if they start the season in the association, parents are on the hook for 100% of the dues. Kids can skate captains and find some clinics to stay sharp if they are skipping bantams - just like their high school teammates will be doing.

Post Reply