People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

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Section 8 guy
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by Section 8 guy » Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:56 pm

You guys can talk as long as you want about EGF having access to a metro area and how kids could come over from Grand Forks. The reality is they don’t. Move along. There’s nothing to see here.

BleedGreen5
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by BleedGreen5 » Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:29 pm

Goose21 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:34 pm
I would say that being a class A team near a "metro" area has some distinct advantages that go beyond player movement. Areas like Duluth, Fargo-Moorhead, Grand Forks-EGF, etc. are hockey hubs. Players have access to development that "satellite" programs can't match. I will use EGF as an example. This area has a great hockey culture nurtured by not only EGF, but also the GF programs and UND. Kids on either side of the river have access to AAA, Camps, Clinics, and leagues right in their own backyards. While other programs can offer even year-round ice it isn't quite the same. In addition to anything run out of the GF or EGF there is the Hockey Academy at the Ralph Engelstad Area with its year round camps, training, and tournaments. Grand Forks is also a hockey hub for North Dakota and Northwestern Minnesota, including the Northern Plains High School and Bantam leagues. These hockey hubs have an additional "iron sharpening iron" effect by bringing in the area's best talent to compete beside and against each other. Local access also means it is a lot easy for kids to play other sports and still take advantage of extra hockey opportunities. It is easier to be working on two sports if games, practices, camps, etc. are just across town instead of a hour or two drive (and all the travel expenses).
I'm not sure everyone understands that GF and EGF does not mix well. This would be like living in Roseau and going to play for Warroad. Think of your most deep seeded rivalry, would you go play for them? While their is a level of respect for GF and their Hockey programs, EGF Greasers would rather just beat them, we are considered the underdogs in this rivalry and generally looked down upon by the GF side. Been that way for my 50 + years but maybe I'm a dinosaur and it's changing. I don't see the # of GF kids crossing the river increasing, our program is already growing and we have plenty of kids

Northern Plains High School and Bantam League is ND based, if you look at rosters, not 1 EGF kid.

rainier2
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by rainier2 » Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:31 pm

Section 8 guy wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:56 pm
You guys can talk as long as you want about EGF having access to a metro area and how kids could come over from Grand Forks. The reality is they don’t. Move along. There’s nothing to see here.
Except for this year, when an exceptionally talented player did. This could very well start a trend, or not.

And do all the EGF parents work in EGF only? Is the town economically isolated from 70k person GF? Couldn't a sizable chunk of the hockey crazed parents that work in GF just live in EGF to begin with? The reality is that you can't separate the suburb from the city.

rainier2
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by rainier2 » Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:32 pm

Goose21 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:34 pm
I would say that being a class A team near a "metro" area has some distinct advantages that go beyond player movement. Areas like Duluth, Fargo-Moorhead, Grand Forks-EGF, etc. are hockey hubs. Players have access to development that "satellite" programs can't match. I will use EGF as an example. This area has a great hockey culture nurtured by not only EGF, but also the GF programs and UND. Kids on either side of the river have access to AAA, Camps, Clinics, and leagues right in their own backyards. While other programs can offer even year-round ice it isn't quite the same. In addition to anything run out of the GF or EGF there is the Hockey Academy at the Ralph Engelstad Area with its year round camps, training, and tournaments. Grand Forks is also a hockey hub for North Dakota and Northwestern Minnesota, including the Northern Plains High School and Bantam leagues. These hockey hubs have an additional "iron sharpening iron" effect by bringing in the area's best talent to compete beside and against each other. Local access also means it is a lot easy for kids to play other sports and still take advantage of extra hockey opportunities. It is easier to be working on two sports if games, practices, camps, etc. are just across town instead of a hour or two drive (and all the travel expenses).
Outstanding. =D>

warriors41
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by warriors41 » Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:45 pm

Is this really such a big deal that it requires 10 separate threads every single season? It’s ridiculous. Rant time...

I’m willing to bet that for most people this isn’t about giving other small towns a chance. It’s purely about hating the top dog, which right now is Hermantown. I say that because I can remember when STA was dominant and people hated them too. Hermantown had a bunch of kids move there from other towns during the same time period, but people swore up and down that if STA just moved up, it would make everything better. And before STA, people said Breck should move up, and before that Warroad should make the move up. And before that, people complained about that they changed from a 1 class tournament at all.

And that’s what this is really about. People want to make the change to a de facto 1 class tournament by trying to come up with all these different rules that would require any good teams into AA hockey. Those days are over. They aren’t coming back.

I’m sure every single one of you would claim that you just want to see the best hockey possible. Yet, if teams just played in the class that enrollment would have them we’d have two great tournaments played by 12-14 teams that would be really fun to watch each year (allowing some sections will be weak every year and their champ might not all that good). But that’s not what people on this specific thread want. They want all the teams out of the way that prevent their town from winning. If Hermantown winning a championship again bothers you, why not ask STA or BSM to go back down to keep some of the mystery alive?

If every single quality A team is forced to move up than winning the A tournament means nothing at all. 30 years from now people from Bagley will be whining to Moose Lake to move up because they won 3 championships in a row. EGF should be forced to move up to AA? God what a ridiculous notion. One that people said wouldn’t happen a decade ago, they were just looking for the privates to be forced into AA.

BSUBeaver
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by BSUBeaver » Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:17 pm

warriors41 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:45 pm
Is this really such a big deal that it requires 10 separate threads every single season? It’s ridiculous. Rant time...

I’m willing to bet that for most people this isn’t about giving other small towns a chance. It’s purely about hating the top dog, which right now is Hermantown. I say that because I can remember when STA was dominant and people hated them too. Hermantown had a bunch of kids move there from other towns during the same time period, but people swore up and down that if STA just moved up, it would make everything better. And before STA, people said Breck should move up, and before that Warroad should make the move up. And before that, people complained about that they changed from a 1 class tournament at all.

And that’s what this is really about. People want to make the change to a de facto 1 class tournament by trying to come up with all these different rules that would require any good teams into AA hockey. Those days are over. They aren’t coming back.

I’m sure every single one of you would claim that you just want to see the best hockey possible. Yet, if teams just played in the class that enrollment would have them we’d have two great tournaments played by 12-14 teams that would be really fun to watch each year (allowing some sections will be weak every year and their champ might not all that good). But that’s not what people on this specific thread want. They want all the teams out of the way that prevent their town from winning. If Hermantown winning a championship again bothers you, why not ask STA or BSM to go back down to keep some of the mystery alive?

If every single quality A team is forced to move up than winning the A tournament means nothing at all. 30 years from now people from Bagley will be whining to Moose Lake to move up because they won 3 championships in a row. EGF should be forced to move up to AA? God what a ridiculous notion. One that people said wouldn’t happen a decade ago, they were just looking for the privates to be forced into AA.
Great post! Might as well go back to the Tier 1 and Tier 2 setup if you are going to put all these rules and regulations in place on who has to play who. And three classes is just going to water down hockey, just like all the classes has watered down football.

kniven
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by kniven » Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:48 pm

Watered down to whom? Again, it’s not 1975 any more. There’s more to hockey than all the old men diehards. In fact, all you old guy diehards don’t matter any more like you used to. Accept your seat in the old fart club for old farts. Let the game progress where it needs to be in 2020. Unbelievable 😐
“218 hockey” Boys of the NOrth ❤️

kniven
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by kniven » Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:02 pm

kniven wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:48 pm
Watered down to whom? Again, it’s not 1975 any more. There’s more to hockey than all the old men diehards. In fact, all you old guy diehards don’t matter any more like you used to. Accept your seat in the old fart club for old farts. Let the game progress where it needs to be in 2020. Unbelievable 😐
Nothing would change with the blue bloods. The would just be competing in a smaller pool. Heck give the bluebloods their own state tournament and give the rest of us our own tournament as well. Is that so painful. Geez.
“218 hockey” Boys of the NOrth ❤️

Deathblow
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by Deathblow » Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:11 pm

Let's just find a way to force an EGF/Central/Red River co-op. That's what, 2600 students. Let em compete in AA. Then this problem is solved. 😉

Goose21
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by Goose21 » Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:40 pm

BleedGreen5 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:29 pm
Goose21 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:34 pm
I would say that being a class A team near a "metro" area has some distinct advantages that go beyond player movement. Areas like Duluth, Fargo-Moorhead, Grand Forks-EGF, etc. are hockey hubs. Players have access to development that "satellite" programs can't match. I will use EGF as an example. This area has a great hockey culture nurtured by not only EGF, but also the GF programs and UND. Kids on either side of the river have access to AAA, Camps, Clinics, and leagues right in their own backyards. While other programs can offer even year-round ice it isn't quite the same. In addition to anything run out of the GF or EGF there is the Hockey Academy at the Ralph Engelstad Area with its year round camps, training, and tournaments. Grand Forks is also a hockey hub for North Dakota and Northwestern Minnesota, including the Northern Plains High School and Bantam leagues. These hockey hubs have an additional "iron sharpening iron" effect by bringing in the area's best talent to compete beside and against each other. Local access also means it is a lot easy for kids to play other sports and still take advantage of extra hockey opportunities. It is easier to be working on two sports if games, practices, camps, etc. are just across town instead of a hour or two drive (and all the travel expenses).
I'm not sure everyone understands that GF and EGF does not mix well. This would be like living in Roseau and going to play for Warroad. Think of your most deep seeded rivalry, would you go play for them? While their is a level of respect for GF and their Hockey programs, EGF Greasers would rather just beat them, we are considered the underdogs in this rivalry and generally looked down upon by the GF side. Been that way for my 50 + years but maybe I'm a dinosaur and it's changing. I don't see the # of GF kids crossing the river increasing, our program is already growing and we have plenty of kids

Northern Plains High School and Bantam League is ND based, if you look at rosters, not 1 EGF kid.
As the first sentence indicates, the post isn't about player movement, transfers, etc. It is about advantages of communities that support multiple hockey programs. But, I suppose it strays away from original topic.
For the record, I don't think EGF should play up in the current system if they don't want to. In fact I believe competitive levels of hockey across the state dictate 3 classes (1. the big schools and those top 10-20 programs who would want to opt up. 2. Smaller AA and the larger/more successful A. 3. and the truly small schools). The disparity between the perennial top programs in each class and the bottom half is large and counter-productive to the competitive nature of the game. Since the two class system there have been only 3 State representatives in 8A (EGF, Warroad and TRF) and there is a large gap between them and programs like Bagley, Park Rapids, Red Lake Falls, and even Crookston and LOW. In class A hockey, large and well-established traditional programs dominate with perhaps the top 3 (with all due respect to Warroad) coming from hockey hubs.
My original post points to some of factors and effects with the changing demographics that have caused a polarization in the competitive balance of hockey. Programs/communities that have resources (numbers, access, money, ability to attract top players) and are able to maximize them will continue to separate themselves from those with less. I am in favor of recognizing the success of hockey programs across the state and reorganizing them into with an additional class from more competition, growth and development.

I haven't looked at the NPHSL rosters in a couple years, but at one time it included a number of teams/players from Minnesota (Section 8)
Forecheck, Backcheck, Paycheck

Section 8 guy
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by Section 8 guy » Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:50 pm

rainier2 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:31 pm
Except for this year, when an exceptionally talented player did. This could very well start a trend, or not.

And do all the EGF parents work in EGF only? Is the town economically isolated from 70k person GF? Couldn't a sizable chunk of the hockey crazed parents that work in GF just live in EGF to begin with? The reality is that you can't separate the suburb from the city.
And there are so many people working in Grand Forks and living in EGF for hockey that EGF has two Bantam teams. Same as pretty much every other A team in the state. I know that doesn’t fit your narrative......but it isn’t happening.

North Dakota people are North Dakota people and Minnesota people are Minnesota people. That’s not convenient for you and your story. But it’s completely true. That’s why almost every kid that leaves Fargo or Grand Forks (and there are plenty of them) doesn’t go to Moorhead or EGF. They go to Sioux Falls or Shattuck or Des Moines or Milwaukee. That’s not logical and it makes no sense. But in reality that’s what happens.

rainier2
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by rainier2 » Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:24 pm

Section 8 guy wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:50 pm
rainier2 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:31 pm
Except for this year, when an exceptionally talented player did. This could very well start a trend, or not.

And do all the EGF parents work in EGF only? Is the town economically isolated from 70k person GF? Couldn't a sizable chunk of the hockey crazed parents that work in GF just live in EGF to begin with? The reality is that you can't separate the suburb from the city.
And there are so many people working in Grand Forks and living in EGF for hockey that EGF has two Bantam teams. Same as pretty much every other A team in the state. I know that doesn’t fit your narrative......but it isn’t happening.

North Dakota people are North Dakota people and Minnesota people are Minnesota people. That’s not convenient for you and your story. But it’s completely true. That’s why almost every kid that leaves Fargo or Grand Forks (and there are plenty of them) doesn’t go to Moorhead or EGF. They go to Sioux Falls or Shattuck or Des Moines or Milwaukee. That’s not logical and it makes no sense. But in reality that’s what happens.
The responses I'm seeing to the questioning of EGF are really making my antennae tingle, because it is the exact same response we saw when Hermantown was first being questioned. I would know, I was a Hermantown defender, until I learned what was really going on there, and now myself, along with 99% of hs hockey fans, realize Hermantown should be in AA.

I'm seeing the same "How dare you question us, we're just an aw-shucks small town team with all homegrown talent!" responses. Yet, I've recently seen someone post that the Lovens came from Fargo, and now a top player moved in from GF. It seems like the same slow reveal that happened as other posters began to point out Hermantown had players from Proctor, Virginia, Denfeld, etc, and that their youth association was loaded with open enrollees.

This may or may not be the case in EGF, but I'm wondering if the same pattern might play out that did with Hermantown:
1. Team wins A title
2. Parents in that metro area want their kids to be on TV winning a title
3. People start moving/open enrolling to the school
4. Youth teams start to kick butt
5. Varsity team becomes yearly contender

I'm sure this post will be met with the same anger and indignation as previous ones, and it may be 100% inaccurate, but it is eery how similar this is to the beginning of the end of the "Hermantown is a true Class A team" charade.

SCBlueLiner
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by SCBlueLiner » Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:34 pm

Deathblow wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:11 pm
Let's just find a way to force an EGF/Central/Red River co-op. That's what, 2600 students. Let em compete in AA. Then this problem is solved. 😉
Until they win state, which they eventually would, then you'd complain about out of state players winning a championship.

Combine the Aviators with the Green Wave? That would be a tough team.

zooomx
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by zooomx » Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:56 pm

BSUBeaver wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:17 pm
warriors41 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:45 pm
Is this really such a big deal that it requires 10 separate threads every single season? It’s ridiculous. Rant time...

I’m willing to bet that for most people this isn’t about giving other small towns a chance. It’s purely about hating the top dog, which right now is Hermantown. I say that because I can remember when STA was dominant and people hated them too. Hermantown had a bunch of kids move there from other towns during the same time period, but people swore up and down that if STA just moved up, it would make everything better. And before STA, people said Breck should move up, and before that Warroad should make the move up. And before that, people complained about that they changed from a 1 class tournament at all.

And that’s what this is really about. People want to make the change to a de facto 1 class tournament by trying to come up with all these different rules that would require any good teams into AA hockey. Those days are over. They aren’t coming back.

I’m sure every single one of you would claim that you just want to see the best hockey possible. Yet, if teams just played in the class that enrollment would have them we’d have two great tournaments played by 12-14 teams that would be really fun to watch each year (allowing some sections will be weak every year and their champ might not all that good). But that’s not what people on this specific thread want. They want all the teams out of the way that prevent their town from winning. If Hermantown winning a championship again bothers you, why not ask STA or BSM to go back down to keep some of the mystery alive?

If every single quality A team is forced to move up than winning the A tournament means nothing at all. 30 years from now people from Bagley will be whining to Moose Lake to move up because they won 3 championships in a row. EGF should be forced to move up to AA? God what a ridiculous notion. One that people said wouldn’t happen a decade ago, they were just looking for the privates to be forced into AA.
Great post! Might as well go back to the Tier 1 and Tier 2 setup if you are going to put all these rules and regulations in place on who has to play who. And three classes is just going to water down hockey, just like all the classes has watered down football.
Yup, I agree with both of you. This whole thread is a hot mess.

defense
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by defense » Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:32 pm

I am not a fan of two classes but if we are to have two classes based on enrollment, then integrity must be protected. In order for some resemblance of a quality tournament to take take place in class a, quality teams need to be allowed to participate. Dominant teams are needed. Loaded teams are needed. It's not a regular season holiday tournament, it's the state tournament. No team is cheating, otherwise they wouldnt be able to play. Playing as schools as a class a team is wrong?? What????? Just accept the fact that this is the league that class a hockey is and deal with it.
Otter Hockey Rocks

kniven
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by kniven » Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:45 pm

defense wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:32 pm
I am not a fan of two classes but if we are to have two classes based on enrollment, then integrity must be protected. In order for some resemblance of a quality tournament to take take place in class a, quality teams need to be allowed to participate. Dominant teams are needed. Loaded teams are needed. It's not a regular season holiday tournament, it's the state tournament. No team is cheating, otherwise they wouldnt be able to play. Playing as schools as a class a team is wrong?? What????? Just accept the fact that this is the league that class a hockey is and deal with it.
Well said and a good point.
“218 hockey” Boys of the NOrth ❤️

defense
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by defense » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:44 am

Duckguy13 wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:21 pm
Here's a thought..anyone who carries 3 or more D1 commits for more than 3 yrs in a row must go AA...good thought eh? No matter school size..if you want to play the recruiter route go the Shattuck or Gentry route. Play tier 1 or something similar. (Gentry even more interesting...tier 1 team is #1 in the country(after 4 yrs in existence), rest of kids make up MSHL...probably makes for a pretty good mn highschool team...even with mostly freshman, sophomores, and juniors. Under 200 students in the whole school...hockey, lax, dance, golf...give them a couple years, they may have 2 tier 1 teams. Before they have to play AA.

Might keep a few people from moving and chomping the #s...looked at this for a few minutes and the more I think about it the more it makes sense. CATHEDRAL Hermantown, other privates, either limit the recruiting and stay single A...or no matter the size are forced to move up.

If this was to happen to someone looking to place their kid they might reconsider the location..who is full, who might get seen and where...? Can I make a good living there and can my kid or kids be happy? I'm sure there are other good hockey towns that are good and fighting to make a difference that might have 1 or 2 kids that keep them competitive and would love to have one or 2 more. That would indeed spread it out,,,more parity, more equal level of play...And If...your kid is good enough..they will find you....or go to SCC or Hermantown, or ..Gentry future and have to compete at AA


Peace, love to hockey

#24#8 rest in peace, difference maker!!
What???
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Duckguy13
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by Duckguy13 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:33 am

This was an Old post....reconsidered...was new to this..


.I will try to be much more cautious with wording...
I was certainly not trying to call out only SCC and HT, there are many others teetering on the lines with transfers and recruitment, both A and AA. I just hate dynasties. I just wish there was a way to at least force the A teams doing it to AA.

But it did stir quite a conversation.
Sorry for my newness.

sticksnblades
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by sticksnblades » Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:31 pm

SCBlueLiner wrote: ↑Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:06 am
"I am continually baffled that Class A teams are allowed to play an essentially Class AA schedule all year then drop down to A for playoffs. To me, that’s where we need to focus the crosshairs to force change. Limit the number of games Class A can play AA and go from there."

This is one simple rule change that would make the most difference.

=========================================================================================================================
I have been reading the Forum for the past 5 years with minimal participation. On this issue, I am in total agreement with the opinion above. Have been for years. MSHSL needs to "call their bluff" by not allowing the best of both worlds (majority of schedule vs. AA teams and then drop down to A for Sections/Tourney) to perennial high end A teams. If top A teams play a mandated majority (exact % to be decided upon, but thinking around 33%, or 8 games max) of games against AA teams they will have no choice but to play in the AA Sections/Tourney. I believe this will discourage the migration, and consolidation of top players to top A teams. Top end players want to play against similar calibre of players. They will not be motivated to "migrate" if 17 games are played against A teams. If an A team chooses to play a majority of their games against A teams, they play in the A Sections. This solution puts the decision squarely in the hands of the A schools. Their scheduling dictates their Class level for Sections/tourney.

7TIMECHAMPS
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by 7TIMECHAMPS » Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:53 pm

Not picking any sides just thought I would note that the Pagestat SOS rankings don’t have any A in teams in the top 40. Hermantown is first at 41 (followed closely by a few other A teams).

My personal take from that would be that maybe it is a problem, but less prevalent than what is implied here. But each can give their own interpretation of that.

Puck8
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by Puck8 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:34 pm

7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:53 pm
Not picking any sides just thought I would note that the Pagestat SOS rankings don’t have any A in teams in the top 40. Hermantown is first at 41 (followed closely by a few other A teams).

My personal take from that would be that maybe it is a problem, but less prevalent than what is implied here. But each can give their own interpretation of that.
In a 1-game showdown, I’d take Hermantown over all but maybe 5-6 of the 40 above them and they’d win far more than they lose (most seasons).

Bottom line, if you want the benefits of playing in the A tourney, you should be playing an A schedule during the regular season with perhaps a limit of 3 AA. Don’t like that because teams would miss out on rivalries? Then move up. I will agree that this debate tends to center on a small # of teams (5-6) each year, but they are more impactful than it may seem. They typically become the de facto section winners every year. They get stronger by playing a AA heavy schedule while the average A team can’t do that because good AA teams won’t put them on the schedule. “Then get better!” Sure, seems like an easy solution but it's more complex than that. Good players from average teams suddenly show up on the top A teams because they know they can play a AA schedule and still be guaranteed a visit to St Paul.

Never thought it would be controversial to ask that teams play within their own class all year.

7TIMECHAMPS
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Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by 7TIMECHAMPS » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:49 pm

Puck8 wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:34 pm
7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:53 pm
Not picking any sides just thought I would note that the Pagestat SOS rankings don’t have any A in teams in the top 40. Hermantown is first at 41 (followed closely by a few other A teams).

My personal take from that would be that maybe it is a problem, but less prevalent than what is implied here. But each can give their own interpretation of that.
In a 1-game showdown, I’d take Hermantown over all but maybe 5-6 of the 40 above them and they’d win far more than they lose (most seasons).

Bottom line, if you want the benefits of playing in the A tourney, you should be playing an A schedule during the regular season with perhaps a limit of 3 AA. Don’t like that because teams would miss out on rivalries? Then move up. I will agree that this debate tends to center on a small # of teams (5-6) each year, but they are more impactful than it may seem. They typically become the de facto section winners every year. They get stronger by playing a AA heavy schedule while the average A team can’t do that because good AA teams won’t put them on the schedule. “Then get better!” Sure, seems like an easy solution but it's more complex than that. Good players from average teams suddenly show up on the top A teams because they know they can play a AA schedule and still be guaranteed a visit to St Paul.

Never thought it would be controversial to ask that teams play within their own class all year.
My comment was in reference to SOS, not ranking or by how good a team is.

I think it would be possible for a team to attain close to the same SOS ranking(40-50) within many of parameters above (somebody said around a limit of 8). That would mean Htwon has to drop 6 AA games and add 6 A. They could do that and have roughly the same SOS. For example they drop Duluth Marshall, Totino, Buffalo, Brainerd, SC, and Holy Family. Then they add a home and home with a few of the other quality A programs (Warroad, EGF, Orono, TRF, Delano, etc) or play a second game with Mahtomedi or SCC. If they schedule it right their SOS could actually increase. And if you get too stringent (say a no tolerance policy or less than 2-4 games) you are going to get resistance from other programs as well.

I am not defending their choice in any way, I am just saying I think there is a way to get around this and still play the same level of competition.

7TIMECHAMPS
Posts: 235
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:58 pm

Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by 7TIMECHAMPS » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:50 pm

Correction to limit of eight.

Puck8
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:31 am

Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by Puck8 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:33 pm

7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:49 pm
Puck8 wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:34 pm
7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:53 pm
Not picking any sides just thought I would note that the Pagestat SOS rankings don’t have any A in teams in the top 40. Hermantown is first at 41 (followed closely by a few other A teams).

My personal take from that would be that maybe it is a problem, but less prevalent than what is implied here. But each can give their own interpretation of that.
In a 1-game showdown, I’d take Hermantown over all but maybe 5-6 of the 40 above them and they’d win far more than they lose (most seasons).

Bottom line, if you want the benefits of playing in the A tourney, you should be playing an A schedule during the regular season with perhaps a limit of 3 AA. Don’t like that because teams would miss out on rivalries? Then move up. I will agree that this debate tends to center on a small # of teams (5-6) each year, but they are more impactful than it may seem. They typically become the de facto section winners every year. They get stronger by playing a AA heavy schedule while the average A team can’t do that because good AA teams won’t put them on the schedule. “Then get better!” Sure, seems like an easy solution but it's more complex than that. Good players from average teams suddenly show up on the top A teams because they know they can play a AA schedule and still be guaranteed a visit to St Paul.

Never thought it would be controversial to ask that teams play within their own class all year.
My comment was in reference to SOS, not ranking or by how good a team is.

I think it would be possible for a team to attain close to the same SOS ranking(40-50) within many of parameters above (somebody said around a limit of 8). That would mean Htwon has to drop 6 AA games and add 6 A. They could do that and have roughly the same SOS. For example they drop Duluth Marshall, Totino, Buffalo, Brainerd, SC, and Holy Family. Then they add a home and home with a few of the other quality A programs (Warroad, EGF, Orono, TRF, Delano, etc) or play a second game with Mahtomedi or SCC. If they schedule it right their SOS could actually increase. And if you get too stringent (say a no tolerance policy or less than 2-4 games) you are going to get resistance from other programs as well.

I am not defending their choice in any way, I am just saying I think there is a way to get around this and still play the same level of competition.
I agree with you in general but I believe they should be given 3, 4 games with AA at the most. Eight games is 1/3 of the schedule and that’s likely not enough to push to AA or impact what’s already going on. The minimal AA games will ‘force’ the top A teams to do just what you suggest - play more quality A teams - and possibly expand their horizons even more.

One thing is clear - something needs to change.

HHawks4Ever
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:34 pm

Re: People wanting to stay A... about single A teams recruiting

Post by HHawks4Ever » Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:00 am

warriors41 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:45 pm
Is this really such a big deal that it requires 10 separate threads every single season? It’s ridiculous. Rant time...

I’m willing to bet that for most people this isn’t about giving other small towns a chance. It’s purely about hating the top dog, which right now is Hermantown. I say that because I can remember when STA was dominant and people hated them too. Hermantown had a bunch of kids move there from other towns during the same time period, but people swore up and down that if STA just moved up, it would make everything better. And before STA, people said Breck should move up, and before that Warroad should make the move up. And before that, people complained about that they changed from a 1 class tournament at all.

And that’s what this is really about. People want to make the change to a de facto 1 class tournament by trying to come up with all these different rules that would require any good teams into AA hockey. Those days are over. They aren’t coming back.

I’m sure every single one of you would claim that you just want to see the best hockey possible. Yet, if teams just played in the class that enrollment would have them we’d have two great tournaments played by 12-14 teams that would be really fun to watch each year (allowing some sections will be weak every year and their champ might not all that good). But that’s not what people on this specific thread want. They want all the teams out of the way that prevent their town from winning. If Hermantown winning a championship again bothers you, why not ask STA or BSM to go back down to keep some of the mystery alive?

If every single quality A team is forced to move up than winning the A tournament means nothing at all. 30 years from now people from Bagley will be whining to Moose Lake to move up because they won 3 championships in a row. EGF should be forced to move up to AA? God what a ridiculous notion. One that people said wouldn’t happen a decade ago, they were just looking for the privates to be forced into AA.
I know I am about a month late but this is a really good post.

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