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Slap Shot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:52 am

rainier2 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:14 pm

7TIMECHAMPS wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:25 pm My gosh I am going to have to quit posting here for fear of having too strong of an urge to beat my head on a wall.

You are right nobody does and you are right they do not have the same resources. You should be very well equipped to answer this question then. Why is there so much whining in class A and not AA? You’re basically arguing my point now.
There is no whining in AA because AA teams don't have a choice! A teams do, and when some of them have plenty of trophies and are perfectly capable of moving up and competing in AA, so much so that they play AA throughout youth, yet don't because they prefer the easy route, then forgive some of us for saying that is in violation of the spirit in which Class A was created.

I didn’t think I would have to explain this but apparently I do. They would ask for EP, Edina, etc to be moved to a third class so that they could have a chance at the AA title. Why are none of those schools clamoring for that? Same concept right? I mean we already dreamed up 50 other new rules why would a third class be so hard?

Just as a side note I didn’t mean discriminatory in a legal way like you mention. I was saying you’re just picking and choosing favorites because you like schools not in metro areas more. If you had two schools with similar demographics (similar enrollment and financial situations) I don’t see how you can treat them differently because one is located closer to a population center.
How is this any different than the AA/A split the MSHSL already did? They put the largest 64 teams in AA. I'd call that treating teams differently. You've tried to make this point several times, but it's not working. They divided schools by the number of students within the school, so there's no reason they couldn't divide them by the number of students that live around the schools.

They all have to follow the same rule though. Answer my earlier question. You’re good at avoiding them? What happens when two schools with similar resources and demographics are compared but one is near a metro area and the other isn’t? That is fair to you? Exactly the same just different location?

As a second thought I will concede that your plan is wonderful and perfectly thought out if you agree to set the “metro” definition at about 14k people (where Hibbing would just barely be over). I mean really it is a metro area compared to Warroad, LOW, KCC, Bagley etc that all clock in at under 2k.

Say the Jake Hale group had put a run together with Minneapolis and won a title. Would it be fair to then make all the kids in subsequent classes play AA? I don’t care if it is for a short time even, you are screwing someone.
Who'd be getting screwed? The incoming bantams? All the returning players on that title team would have a title!! I think they could handle the promotion to AA. Maybe winning an A title boosts the program even more, so they are able to compete in AA on a regular basis. Why don't you consider this a possibility?

Yes incoming bantams or underclassmen that didn’t get to play varsity. How do those kids like this rule? Further what are the chances they stick around? You need a long sustained run to create that kind of success. Very few programs would be able to do it without the resources of the big time programs. Most of the newcomers in AA are there because of resources.

Lol sorry to say I don’t. It is maybe a nice thought to make up rules until you get to a spot that you like for your team (or teams) but not my favorite approach.
Well, as much as you dislike my idea, it's still more of a possibility than your idea of going back to one tournament, so do you have any other ideas?

If we are arguing the best idea is what is most plausible I will go with keep it the same. You are the one claiming to have all the answers not me. So how about another idea from you? The almost is just not good, sorry.

I apologize I do have to get to work so I won’t be able to continue this discussion for a while. I realize that I’m likely not changing your mind and want you to know I’m not an SCC or Hermantown person either. I just feel that you oversimplify the solution and want to tweak it to your liking or benefit, even if this means the system is no more equitable than it was before. It will be screwing someone (mid sized city teams) but it’s not me so I don’t care!
You're right, you're not changing my mind. Here are the teams that have played in the Class A title game the last 20 years:
Hermantown (9)
Breck (5)
STA (5)
Warroad (4)
Duluth Marshall (3)
Totino-Grace (2)
EGF (2)
Orono (2)
SCC
Greenway
BSM
Rochester Lourdes
Red Wing
Alexandria
Monticello
Simley
33 out of a possible 40 spots were taken by teams located in metro areas. If you don't think taking big city teams out of Class A would make the A tourney more equitable, then I don't know what to tell you.

Let’s look at Class A finalists between 2010-19:

Team, Appearances, Titles:
Breck 2 - 1
Hermantown 8 - 2
STA 3 - 3
EGF 2 - 2
Monticello 1 - 0
Alexandria 1 - 0
Orono 1 - 1
SCC 1 - 1
Greenway 1 – 0

STA opted up so that is taken care of. Aside from Hermantown how many of those programs (even if limiting it to title winners) would have sustained success in AA and subsequently how exciting would a now watered-down A tournament be by moving up more teams to AA?

What would be the time requirement for the move to A? Clearly as you move more teams to AA after a title the A pool would be reduced over time. You can't just keep moving title winners up. My apologies if you’ve explained that process but I couldn’t find it.

7TIMECHAMPS wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:39 pm Equitable in who’s eyes? Do the above listed teams think your idea is equitable? Many of those schools are a small fraction of the big AA schools you are telling them they now have to compete with. You go tell EGF (who is apparently a “city” school) that they are basically the equivalent of EP and Edina so they have to move up to be more equitable to the likes of Hibbing. I have a feeling that by the time your “system” has done its work I’d just as soon stay home and watch the squirt b tournament.


EGF is a great example, I'm glad you picked them. I think they would make the transition to 8AA just fine. To wit,

HS: Beat 8AA team Bemidji twice, then outclassed Roseau in a game where they outshot them 2:1, and gave #3 in AA Moorhead all they could handle in a good game 6-3 (en) in which the shots were even. In fact, according to PageStat, EGF would be the #2 seed in 8AA as of now!

Bantams: Beat #9 in AA Champlin Park, performed well against 8AA foes, splitting with Bemidji, only losing to Roseau by a goal, and gave #3 Moorhead a solid game in a 4-0 loss.

Pee Wees: Beat Bemidji, lost a 2-1 game to #4 Moorhead, absolutely obliterated Roseau 9-0, and lost a tight 4-2 game to one of your examples of unbeatability, EP.

Somehow I think the EGF players would be okay being in 8AA, as it looks like they'd be at least a top three seed every year, and when they did get to state, they'd already know they could hang with the EP's of the world. And given they had a top player transfer from ND this year, they would likely attract a few more if they were playing an AA schedule with a good chance to go to the AA tourney.

(Pro debating tip: When selecting an example to support your argument, try to select one that isn't the worst possible one you could have picked.)

7TIMECHAMPS wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:54 pm
They all have to follow the same rule though. Answer my earlier question. You’re good at avoiding them? What happens when two schools with similar resources and demographics are compared but one is near a metro area and the other isn’t? That is fair to you? Exactly the same just different location?

Yes, and this is exactly the point of my entire idea, which is...the school near the metro area is surrounded by tons of nearby talent than can open enroll relatively easily!! That's a huge advantage small town schools don't have. I don't know if you don't want to understand this, or can't, or maybe it's both. And for someone who claims to not be concerned with fairness, you sure keep bringing it up a lot. Would some big city schools be getting screwed using my idea? Yes, but after 20+ years of watching small schools get screwed under the current system, I think most people would be okay with them trading places for a while.

As a second thought I will concede that your plan is wonderful and perfectly thought out if you agree to set the “metro” definition at about 14k people (where Hibbing would just barely be over). I mean really it is a metro area compared to Warroad, LOW, KCC, Bagley etc that all clock in at under 2k.

Why would I agree to that? It's my idea, I'll make the rules. Try coming up with a single idea of your own and you can make the rules. I love how you keep acting as if you're exposing some hidden agenda of mine, when it is obvious I would choose a system that favors the team I root for. Who wouldn't? That's like me saying "A-ha! The only reason you're arguing against my idea is because you don't like my idea!" Discovering the obvious is not an achievement, no matter how much you act like it is.

When it comes to debate, some people like a challenge. Not me. So, please, keep trying.

Slap Shot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:52 am

rainier2 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:14 pm

Let’s look at Class A finalists between 2010-19:

Team, Appearances, Titles:
Breck 2 - 1
Hermantown 8 - 2
STA 3 - 3
EGF 2 - 2
Monticello 1 - 0
Alexandria 1 - 0
Orono 1 - 1
SCC 1 - 1
Greenway 1 – 0

STA opted up so that is taken care of. Aside from Hermantown how many of those programs (even if limiting it to title winners) would have sustained success in AA and subsequently how exciting would a now watered-down A tournament be by moving up more teams to AA?

What would be the time requirement for the move to A? Clearly as you move more teams to AA after a title the A pool would be reduced over time. You can't just keep moving title winners up. My apologies if you’ve explained that process but I couldn’t find it.

rainier2 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:46 pm EGF is a great example, I'm glad you picked them. I think they would make the transition to 8AA just fine. To wit,

HS: Beat 8AA team Bemidji twice, then outclassed Roseau in a game where they outshot them 2:1, and gave #3 in AA Moorhead all they could handle in a good game 6-3 (en) in which the shots were even. In fact, according to PageStat, EGF would be the #2 seed in 8AA as of now!

Bantams: Beat #9 in AA Champlin Park, performed well against 8AA foes, splitting with Bemidji, only losing to Roseau by a goal, and gave #3 Moorhead a solid game in a 4-0 loss.

Pee Wees: Beat Bemidji, lost a 2-1 game to #4 Moorhead, absolutely obliterated Roseau 9-0, and lost a tight 4-2 game to one of your examples of unbeatability, EP.

Somehow I think the EGF players would be okay being in 8AA, as it looks like they'd be at least a top three seed every year, and when they did get to state, they'd already know they could hang with the EP's of the world. And given they had a top player transfer from ND this year, they would likely attract a few more if they were playing an AA schedule with a good chance to go to the AA tourney.

(Pro debating tip: When selecting an example to support your argument, try to select one that isn't the worst possible one you could have picked.)

rainier2 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:46 pm

7TIMECHAMPS wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:39 pm Equitable in who’s eyes? Do the above listed teams think your idea is equitable? Many of those schools are a small fraction of the big AA schools you are telling them they now have to compete with. You go tell EGF (who is apparently a “city” school) that they are basically the equivalent of EP and Edina so they have to move up to be more equitable to the likes of Hibbing. I have a feeling that by the time your “system” has done its work I’d just as soon stay home and watch the squirt b tournament.


EGF is a great example, I'm glad you picked them. I think they would make the transition to 8AA just fine. To wit,

HS: Beat 8AA team Bemidji twice, then outclassed Roseau in a game where they outshot them 2:1, and gave #3 in AA Moorhead all they could handle in a good game 6-3 (en) in which the shots were even. In fact, according to PageStat, EGF would be the #2 seed in 8AA as of now!

Bantams: Beat #9 in AA Champlin Park, performed well against 8AA foes, splitting with Bemidji, only losing to Roseau by a goal, and gave #3 Moorhead a solid game in a 4-0 loss.

Pee Wees: Beat Bemidji, lost a 2-1 game to #4 Moorhead, absolutely obliterated Roseau 9-0, and lost a tight 4-2 game to one of your examples of unbeatability, EP.

Somehow I think the EGF players would be okay being in 8AA, as it looks like they'd be at least a top three seed every year, and when they did get to state, they'd already know they could hang with the EP's of the world. And given they had a top player transfer from ND this year, they would likely attract a few more if they were playing an AA schedule with a good chance to go to the AA tourney.

My gosh you really are a clown. See below.

HS: Bemidji? Really? They are the 8 seed in the section. Good point LOL. They likely wouldn't go to state, however. Any idea what EGF's record is against Moorhead the last decade? I will help you out, it is 1-9. They won one game the year of their first state championship. And that year they likely don't win the AA title. To boot Moorhead doesn't even win the section every year so it isn't like that is the only team they have to get through. If you would like I will go year by year with you and show you that it is likely that EGF has one (maybe two if they can pull some upsets) state tournament appearances over the last 20 years. So that is your bar? Wow. Also, a top 3 seed every year is a stretch. It is probably more like every other year.

Youth: No Bantam, Peewee, or Squirt A team has beat a Moorhead team in 2 years (according to YHH). Moorhead has a top 5 AA team at Bantams, Peewees, and Squirts. Sure they may play close with Bemidji, Roseau, Brainerd, STMA, etc but their chances of winning the section over the next decade? Probably about the same 1/20 to 1/10 they experienced over the last decade. And no state titles.

You speak of close games but how often are they winning? The records speak for themselves.

(Pro debating tip: When selecting an example to support your argument, try to select one that isn't the worst possible one you could have picked.)

Pro Tip: Do a little better research before running your mouth. And with far less spin.

7TIMECHAMPS wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:54 pm
They all have to follow the same rule though. Answer my earlier question. You’re good at avoiding them? What happens when two schools with similar resources and demographics are compared but one is near a metro area and the other isn’t? That is fair to you? Exactly the same just different location?

Yes, and this is exactly the point of my entire idea, which is...the school near the metro area is surrounded by tons of nearby talent than can open enroll relatively easily!! That's a huge advantage small town schools don't have. I don't know if you don't want to understand this, or can't, or maybe it's both. And for someone who claims to not be concerned with fairness, you sure keep bringing it up a lot. Would some big city schools be getting screwed using my idea? Yes, but after 20+ years of watching small schools get screwed under the current system, I think most people would be okay with them trading places for a while.

As a second thought I will concede that your plan is wonderful and perfectly thought out if you agree to set the “metro” definition at about 14k people (where Hibbing would just barely be over). I mean really it is a metro area compared to Warroad, LOW, KCC, Bagley etc that all clock in at under 2k.

Why would I agree to that? It's my idea, I'll make the rules. Try coming up with a single idea of your own and you can make the rules. I love how you keep acting as if you're exposing some hidden agenda of mine, when it is obvious I would choose a system that favors the team I root for. Who wouldn't? That's like me saying "A-ha! The only reason you're arguing against my idea is because you don't like my idea!" Discovering the obvious is not an achievement, no matter how much you act like it is.

When it comes to debate, some people like a challenge. Not me. So, please, keep trying.

goldy313 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:40 pm EGF is in a metro area in my opinion. With population base of over 60,000 it is larger than the outstate AA area of Owatonna and Northfield. I won’t count Hastings and New Prague but could.

I think the 7 non metro of the 40 include Warroad (4), Greenway (1), Alexandria (1), and Red Wing (1). MAML opted down as they were assigned AA. The rest come from large population bases, largely affluent...... we are not talking Columbia Heights, Fridley, Edison, or Brooklyn Center here, let alone John Marshall or Henry Sibley.

goldy313 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:17 pm To be fair, if EGF was in AA it is very likely their schedule would include more AA teams and less of the likes of Orono and Delano. The can’t control their conference schedule of course but in all likelihood they would have played a tougher non conference schedule, thereby improving their overall standings in computer driven polls.

A quick glance through the past few years shows me they played no non conference AA teams. Legitimately so as they are an A team, but if we are going down the hypothetical rabbit hole here we should acknowledge the schedule would have different. At the very least in regards to playing 8AA schools.

goldy313 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:31 pm My point was that, in general, AA teams are rated higher than A teams. If they dropped Orono and Delano and picked up STMA and St. Cloud they would have a tougher schedule and thus a higher ranking.

7TIMECHAMPS wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:23 pm

goldy313 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:17 pm To be fair, if EGF was in AA it is very likely their schedule would include more AA teams and less of the likes of Orono and Delano. The can’t control their conference schedule of course but in all likelihood they would have played a tougher non conference schedule, thereby improving their overall standings in computer driven polls.

A quick glance through the past few years shows me they played no non conference AA teams. Legitimately so as they are an A team, but if we are going down the hypothetical rabbit hole here we should acknowledge the schedule would have different. At the very least in regards to playing 8AA schools.

Maybe somebody can clear the air here but my understanding is that Pagestat does not carry a bias towards class. Is that correct? If it does have a class bias then you have a valid point.

I have felt for some time that Pagestat is the best ranking system out there so I generally lean on it pretty heavily.

east hockey wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:42 pm

7TIMECHAMPS wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:23 pm

goldy313 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:17 pm To be fair, if EGF was in AA it is very likely their schedule would include more AA teams and less of the likes of Orono and Delano. The can’t control their conference schedule of course but in all likelihood they would have played a tougher non conference schedule, thereby improving their overall standings in computer driven polls.

A quick glance through the past few years shows me they played no non conference AA teams. Legitimately so as they are an A team, but if we are going down the hypothetical rabbit hole here we should acknowledge the schedule would have different. At the very least in regards to playing 8AA schools.

Maybe somebody can clear the air here but my understanding is that Pagestat does not carry a bias towards class. Is that correct? If it does have a class bias then you have a valid point.

I have felt for some time that Pagestat is the best ranking system out there so I generally lean on it pretty heavily.

PageStat doesn't consider what class any team plays in. It's simply a number-crunching system with a couple thousand interlocking formulas.

Lee

goldy313 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:17 pm To be fair, if EGF was in AA it is very likely their schedule would include more AA teams and less of the likes of Orono and Delano. The can’t control their conference schedule of course but in all likelihood they would have played a tougher non conference schedule, thereby improving their overall standings in computer driven polls.

Green and White Fan wrote: ↑Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:21 pm I am going to put this as nicely as possible. Anybody that has read all the posts on this thread is a little dumber today than they were before they read it!

7TIMECHAMPS wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:03 pm Ever heard of Warroad? Or are they too close to the metro area Baudette? Yeah you poor thing. Some kid out there should feel your wrath for all the pain and suffering you have taken over the years!

Not sure what you are trying to get at with your last point. My thought is by and large the system works. Perfect? No but nothing is. And far better than your little plan.

rainier2 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:38 pm

Green and White Fan wrote: ↑Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:21 pm I am going to put this as nicely as possible. Anybody that has read all the posts on this thread is a little dumber today than they were before they read it!

Well, judging by your posts, you must have read this thread 15-20 times.

You Roseau guys might like to talk tough about not caring about fairness and liking the current system, but the writing is on the wall, your Rams are gonna have to move down to Class A to ever have any type of success again. After you're current sophomores are done, there ain't help coming from the youth ranks for the foreseeable future, unfortunately.

When you do get to A, you're not gonna like what you find. Maybe you can get by EGF, Warroad, and TRF, but if you do ever make it to state, you'll be greeted by teams from big cities that draw from huge talent bases, whose players played AA all through youth. While you guys wait for the next Yon-Strand-Bjugson team to come through, A teams from Duluth, St. Cloud, and the TC will just re-load year after year, and you'll wonder how your great class got trounced 8-1 in the quarterfinals at state.

In HS hockey, the rich keep getting richer, and if a systemic change to how teams are classified AA or A isn't implemented, you might as well chisel "7 Time Champs" into a statue in front of your arena, because it ain't never gonna get to eight.

rainier2 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:58 pm

7TIMECHAMPS wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:03 pm Ever heard of Warroad? Or are they too close to the metro area Baudette? Yeah you poor thing. Some kid out there should feel your wrath for all the pain and suffering you have taken over the years!

Not sure what you are trying to get at with your last point. My thought is by and large the system works. Perfect? No but nothing is. And far better than your little plan.

Thank you again for providing me with a perfect example of my point.

Even a place like Warroad, which has as good of a hockey culture and community support as you'll find anywhere, has just gone through a decade of relative mediocrity. They are proof that having an excellent program isn't enough for sustained success, and just further highlights what a huge advantage big city teams that can draw nearby talent year after year have.

You think "by and large the system works", even though 33 of 40 Class A title game participants the last 20 years have all been from metro areas? If the goal of Class A was to be dominated by city teams, then I guess "by and large the system works", but somehow I don't think that was the intent when it was created. But, I guess we agree to disagree.

And why did you call my plan "little"? Do you have a bigger plan?