A teams playing AA at youth levels

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rainier2
Posts: 581
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:24 pm

Re: A teams playing AA at youth levels

Post by rainier2 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:11 pm

7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:02 pm
rainier2 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:38 pm
Green and White Fan wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:21 pm
I am going to put this as nicely as possible. Anybody that has read all the posts on this thread is a little dumber today than they were before they read it!
Well, judging by your posts, you must have read this thread 15-20 times. :lol:

You Roseau guys might like to talk tough about not caring about fairness and liking the current system, but the writing is on the wall, your Rams are gonna have to move down to Class A to ever have any type of success again. After you're current sophomores are done, there ain't help coming from the youth ranks for the foreseeable future, unfortunately.

When you do get to A, you're not gonna like what you find. Maybe you can get by EGF, Warroad, and TRF, but if you do ever make it to state, you'll be greeted by teams from big cities that draw from huge talent bases, whose players played AA all through youth. While you guys wait for the next Yon-Strand-Bjugson team to come through, A teams from Duluth, St. Cloud, and the TC will just re-load year after year, and you'll wonder how your great class got trounced 8-1 in the quarterfinals at state.

In HS hockey, the rich keep getting richer, and if a systemic change to how teams are classified AA or A isn't implemented, you might as well chisel "7 Time Champs" into a statue in front of your arena, because it ain't never gonna get to eight.
Lol lost the argument so turning to ripping on Roseau now? You are too funny.

I am aware of the changes of power taking place. You may be right and that would be a sad day indeed. I do think Roseau has a little more in the tank than you might think though. Peewees went to state last year along with the bantams (current sophomores you reference). Again, you should research a little better. But you could be right after that who knows. It is certainly getting harder and I’m not projecting out the mite or squirt group’s success.

As far as 8A the representative usually seems to fair pretty good down at state. Matter of fact don’t they have 3 top 10 teams right now? More likely they’re on the other end of an 8-1 game in the QF. If Roseau moves down I’m not too worried about their ability to compete with the likes of Warroad (who beat the unbeatable SCC that is one of the teams that would supposedly trounce Roseau), TRF, and EGF.

Change is coming (or has been for some time) but Roseau will be fine.
You're correct, the 8A rep usually does well, but only EGF, part of a metro area, has won a title since 2005. In fact, no true small town team has won the A title since Warroad beat T-G in OT. That's a 14 year drought, and I don't see it changing anytime soon. Again, I don't think this is what the intention of Class A was when it was created, but we can agree to disagree.

rainier2
Posts: 581
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:24 pm

Re: A teams playing AA at youth levels

Post by rainier2 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:18 pm

7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:06 pm
rainier2 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:58 pm
7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:03 pm
Ever heard of Warroad? Or are they too close to the metro area Baudette? Yeah you poor thing. Some kid out there should feel your wrath for all the pain and suffering you have taken over the years!

Not sure what you are trying to get at with your last point. My thought is by and large the system works. Perfect? No but nothing is. And far better than your little plan.
Thank you again for providing me with a perfect example of my point.

Even a place like Warroad, which has as good of a hockey culture and community support as you'll find anywhere, has just gone through a decade of relative mediocrity. They are proof that having an excellent program isn't enough for sustained success, and just further highlights what a huge advantage big city teams that can draw nearby talent year after year have.

You think "by and large the system works", even though 33 of 40 Class A title game participants the last 20 years have all been from metro areas? If the goal of Class A was to be dominated by city teams, then I guess "by and large the system works", but somehow I don't think that was the intent when it was created. But, I guess we agree to disagree.

And why did you call my plan "little"? Do you have a bigger plan? :lol:
For the bad that Warroad had the last decade they are going to make up for this decade. Again do a little research. Warroad is going to be pretty loaded for some time.

Keep asking me the same question, it seems to be working well. My plan is keep it the same. Do you have memory loss? Oh and keep quoting misleading stats that include a lot of teams that have already moved up.
Doesn't matter that Warroad might be good for a few years here, my point is that even a program as good as they are can have long droughts of success when they don't have a metro area to draw from. It's a fact.

Misleading stats? Only 11 of those 33 big city A title game participants are now in AA. Which means 2/3 are still in A!! These are easily verifiable numbers.

Funny how you tell me to "do a little research", when my posts contain actual research, while yours contain purely opinion. #-o

7TIMECHAMPS
Posts: 276
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:58 pm

Re: A teams playing AA at youth levels

Post by 7TIMECHAMPS » Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:00 pm

rainier2 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:11 pm
7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:02 pm
rainier2 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:38 pm


Well, judging by your posts, you must have read this thread 15-20 times. :lol:

You Roseau guys might like to talk tough about not caring about fairness and liking the current system, but the writing is on the wall, your Rams are gonna have to move down to Class A to ever have any type of success again. After you're current sophomores are done, there ain't help coming from the youth ranks for the foreseeable future, unfortunately.

When you do get to A, you're not gonna like what you find. Maybe you can get by EGF, Warroad, and TRF, but if you do ever make it to state, you'll be greeted by teams from big cities that draw from huge talent bases, whose players played AA all through youth. While you guys wait for the next Yon-Strand-Bjugson team to come through, A teams from Duluth, St. Cloud, and the TC will just re-load year after year, and you'll wonder how your great class got trounced 8-1 in the quarterfinals at state.

In HS hockey, the rich keep getting richer, and if a systemic change to how teams are classified AA or A isn't implemented, you might as well chisel "7 Time Champs" into a statue in front of your arena, because it ain't never gonna get to eight.
Lol lost the argument so turning to ripping on Roseau now? You are too funny.

I am aware of the changes of power taking place. You may be right and that would be a sad day indeed. I do think Roseau has a little more in the tank than you might think though. Peewees went to state last year along with the bantams (current sophomores you reference). Again, you should research a little better. But you could be right after that who knows. It is certainly getting harder and I’m not projecting out the mite or squirt group’s success.

As far as 8A the representative usually seems to fair pretty good down at state. Matter of fact don’t they have 3 top 10 teams right now? More likely they’re on the other end of an 8-1 game in the QF. If Roseau moves down I’m not too worried about their ability to compete with the likes of Warroad (who beat the unbeatable SCC that is one of the teams that would supposedly trounce Roseau), TRF, and EGF.

Change is coming (or has been for some time) but Roseau will be fine.
You're correct, the 8A rep usually does well, but only EGF, part of a metro area, has won a title since 2005. In fact, no true small town team has won the A title since Warroad beat T-G in OT. That's a 14 year drought, and I don't see it changing anytime soon. Again, I don't think this is what the intention of Class A was when it was created, but we can agree to disagree.
We are REALLY going to have to disagree on EGF being a “big city team”. They have a population of about what 6-8k? And those state championship teams were chalk full of kids that played EGF hockey since mites. Somebody else out there can maybe answer this better but was there a single ND kid on those teams? Go all the way back to squirts or mites if you want to. That was straight EGF kids. And if they hadn’t won it Warroad very well could have (I believe one of the section championships was OT, Kobe Roth hit the cross bar that would have sent them). You don’t see it changing anytime soon? You said Warroad counts, they don’t have a shot?

7TIMECHAMPS
Posts: 276
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:58 pm

Re: A teams playing AA at youth levels

Post by 7TIMECHAMPS » Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:06 pm

rainier2 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:18 pm
7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:06 pm
rainier2 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:58 pm


Thank you again for providing me with a perfect example of my point.

Even a place like Warroad, which has as good of a hockey culture and community support as you'll find anywhere, has just gone through a decade of relative mediocrity. They are proof that having an excellent program isn't enough for sustained success, and just further highlights what a huge advantage big city teams that can draw nearby talent year after year have.

You think "by and large the system works", even though 33 of 40 Class A title game participants the last 20 years have all been from metro areas? If the goal of Class A was to be dominated by city teams, then I guess "by and large the system works", but somehow I don't think that was the intent when it was created. But, I guess we agree to disagree.

And why did you call my plan "little"? Do you have a bigger plan? :lol:
For the bad that Warroad had the last decade they are going to make up for this decade. Again do a little research. Warroad is going to be pretty loaded for some time.

Keep asking me the same question, it seems to be working well. My plan is keep it the same. Do you have memory loss? Oh and keep quoting misleading stats that include a lot of teams that have already moved up.
Doesn't matter that Warroad might be good for a few years here, my point is that even a program as good as they are can have long droughts of success when they don't have a metro area to draw from. It's a fact.

Misleading stats? Only 11 of those 33 big city A title game participants are now in AA. Which means 2/3 are still in A!! These are easily verifiable numbers.

Funny how you tell me to "do a little research", when my posts contain actual research, while yours contain purely opinion. #-o
It’s going to be a little longer than a few years, it will be a solid decade. HS has good young players, bantams as well, and if you look at YHH squirt rankings they’re #6. Higher than (gasp) some pretty big city teams. Going to be a little longer than a “few”.

Your “big city” definition is highly questionable, but other have been over that so I will leave it alone.

What have I said that is opinion? Most of your “research” has been cherry picked scores with color commentary on games you didn’t watch.

I’m starting to wonder if I should take you seriously or if you’re just messing around.

rainier2
Posts: 581
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:24 pm

Re: A teams playing AA at youth levels

Post by rainier2 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:43 pm

7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:06 pm
rainier2 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:18 pm
7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:06 pm


For the bad that Warroad had the last decade they are going to make up for this decade. Again do a little research. Warroad is going to be pretty loaded for some time.

Keep asking me the same question, it seems to be working well. My plan is keep it the same. Do you have memory loss? Oh and keep quoting misleading stats that include a lot of teams that have already moved up.
Doesn't matter that Warroad might be good for a few years here, my point is that even a program as good as they are can have long droughts of success when they don't have a metro area to draw from. It's a fact.

Misleading stats? Only 11 of those 33 big city A title game participants are now in AA. Which means 2/3 are still in A!! These are easily verifiable numbers.

Funny how you tell me to "do a little research", when my posts contain actual research, while yours contain purely opinion. #-o
It’s going to be a little longer than a few years, it will be a solid decade. HS has good young players, bantams as well, and if you look at YHH squirt rankings they’re #6. Higher than (gasp) some pretty big city teams. Going to be a little longer than a “few”.
Again, you always know the right things to say to prove my point. Thank you.

You bring up the success of the Warroad youth teams, and the fact that you did highlights your ignorance of what is happening in Class A. The Warriors are ranked #1 in bantam A, and would seem to be ready to take Class A by storm when they arrive in HS, but if you look a little closer, you'll see Warroad lost to Hermantown 8-2. 8-2!!! They are #1 in bantam A, yet lost 8-2 to Hermantown. This is what they'll face in HS, except Hermantown will likely add a star player or two before then. Hermantown has strong records and rankings at the youth levels, like Warroad, but Hermantown does it against an almost exclusively AA schedule. Warroad's AA opponents are a handful of games vs Bemidji, Roseau, and Moorhead, far different from the EP, Edina, Tonka, Wayzata lineup the Hawks face.

And besides Hermantown, there will likely be an SCC or some TC private school waiting for them, full of top kids from different AA youth associations, or a Mahtomedi that is #7 in bantam AA, #13 in Pee Wee AA, and whose squirt A team was 40-1 last year! When the talent pools of metro areas aggregate, it can be quite a shock when they steamroll what you thought was a great Class A team.

And these Warroad teams might not even make it to state. They gotta get by EGF first. EGF isn't far behind them in bantam A, at #8, and the EGF Pee Wees are #1, while the Warroad Pee Wee don't have a single high quality win on the year, and in HS, Warroad did beat EGF by a goal 6-4 (en) earlier this season, but the 37-25 shot advantage for EGF makes me think I'd bet on the Green Wave next time around. EGF got a top player to cross the river this year. Did this players parents have to change jobs to do this? Leave family and friends behind? No. Just needed to move a few miles away and everything else in life stays the same. This is the advantage of being located in a metro area. I know this concept escapes you, but I'll keep saying it nonetheless.

Slap Shot
Posts: 840
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:44 pm

Re: A teams playing AA at youth levels

Post by Slap Shot » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:02 am

rainier2 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:18 pm
7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:06 pm
rainier2 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:58 pm


Thank you again for providing me with a perfect example of my point.

Even a place like Warroad, which has as good of a hockey culture and community support as you'll find anywhere, has just gone through a decade of relative mediocrity. They are proof that having an excellent program isn't enough for sustained success, and just further highlights what a huge advantage big city teams that can draw nearby talent year after year have.

You think "by and large the system works", even though 33 of 40 Class A title game participants the last 20 years have all been from metro areas? If the goal of Class A was to be dominated by city teams, then I guess "by and large the system works", but somehow I don't think that was the intent when it was created. But, I guess we agree to disagree.

And why did you call my plan "little"? Do you have a bigger plan? :lol:
For the bad that Warroad had the last decade they are going to make up for this decade. Again do a little research. Warroad is going to be pretty loaded for some time.

Keep asking me the same question, it seems to be working well. My plan is keep it the same. Do you have memory loss? Oh and keep quoting misleading stats that include a lot of teams that have already moved up.
Doesn't matter that Warroad might be good for a few years here, my point is that even a program as good as they are can have long droughts of success when they don't have a metro area to draw from. It's a fact.

Misleading stats? Only 11 of those 33 big city A title game participants are now in AA. Which means 2/3 are still in A!! These are easily verifiable numbers.

Funny how you tell me to "do a little research", when my posts contain actual research, while yours contain purely opinion. #-o
You still haven't answered my questions. How many teams will have to be moved from A to AA as per your 'little plan"? Where does it stop?

7TIMECHAMPS
Posts: 276
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:58 pm

Re: A teams playing AA at youth levels

Post by 7TIMECHAMPS » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:48 am

rainier2 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:43 pm
7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:06 pm
rainier2 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:18 pm


Doesn't matter that Warroad might be good for a few years here, my point is that even a program as good as they are can have long droughts of success when they don't have a metro area to draw from. It's a fact.

Misleading stats? Only 11 of those 33 big city A title game participants are now in AA. Which means 2/3 are still in A!! These are easily verifiable numbers.

Funny how you tell me to "do a little research", when my posts contain actual research, while yours contain purely opinion. #-o
It’s going to be a little longer than a few years, it will be a solid decade. HS has good young players, bantams as well, and if you look at YHH squirt rankings they’re #6. Higher than (gasp) some pretty big city teams. Going to be a little longer than a “few”.
Again, you always know the right things to say to prove my point. Thank you.

You bring up the success of the Warroad youth teams, and the fact that you did highlights your ignorance of what is happening in Class A. The Warriors are ranked #1 in bantam A, and would seem to be ready to take Class A by storm when they arrive in HS, but if you look a little closer, you'll see Warroad lost to Hermantown 8-2. 8-2!!! They are #1 in bantam A, yet lost 8-2 to Hermantown. This is what they'll face in HS, except Hermantown will likely add a star player or two before then. Hermantown has strong records and rankings at the youth levels, like Warroad, but Hermantown does it against an almost exclusively AA schedule. Warroad's AA opponents are a handful of games vs Bemidji, Roseau, and Moorhead, far different from the EP, Edina, Tonka, Wayzata lineup the Hawks face.

And besides Hermantown, there will likely be an SCC or some TC private school waiting for them, full of top kids from different AA youth associations, or a Mahtomedi that is #7 in bantam AA, #13 in Pee Wee AA, and whose squirt A team was 40-1 last year! When the talent pools of metro areas aggregate, it can be quite a shock when they steamroll what you thought was a great Class A team.

And these Warroad teams might not even make it to state. They gotta get by EGF first. EGF isn't far behind them in bantam A, at #8, and the EGF Pee Wees are #1, while the Warroad Pee Wee don't have a single high quality win on the year, and in HS, Warroad did beat EGF by a goal 6-4 (en) earlier this season, but the 37-25 shot advantage for EGF makes me think I'd bet on the Green Wave next time around. EGF got a top player to cross the river this year. Did this players parents have to change jobs to do this? Leave family and friends behind? No. Just needed to move a few miles away and everything else in life stays the same. This is the advantage of being located in a metro area. I know this concept escapes you, but I'll keep saying it nonetheless.
This argument was tired long ago. This will probably have to wrap it up for me. You keep getting proven wrong and then just move on to something else.

You know you and I really aren't that different in that I joined this board a few years ago to defend my program. At the time Roseau was down pretty good and I felt that people were unnecessarily raging on the program and declaring the end. It rubbed me wrong and I was mad so I joined to say something (hence the somewhat aggressive name). I imagine you joined for a similar reason, to defend your program. Our approaches or mentalities couldn't be farther apart though it appears. So here it goes one more time.

Hermantown has a really good bantam team. The star players are Plante's though. What do you do about that? Those kids were playing Hermantown hockey from the day they were born.

I am actually not going to defend Hermantown though. I wish they would move up so that somebody doesn't come up with a crazy system like yours that gets programs like EGF caught in the crossfire. Also, to prove how weak your cherry picking scores is to prove a point I will point out some of their PeeWee scores; Tonka 0-9, Woodbury 3-11, OMG 1-12, Chaska 1-9, WBL 2-8 and there are more as well. Not exactly a AA juggernaut. Pretty easy to spin a point when you pick a couple of scores from a specific age group isn't it?

Regardless of who represents 8A I will be happy because that team meets my definition of a class A team. Also, there you go adding color commentary to games you did not watch. Really though Warroad is going to be fine, they don't need your help.

And I have seen plenty of players move in to small town teams. Didn't Greenway get a little help last year?

zooomx
Posts: 463
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:34 pm

Re: A teams playing AA at youth levels

Post by zooomx » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:56 am

Slap Shot wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:02 am
rainier2 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:18 pm
7TIMECHAMPS wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:06 pm


For the bad that Warroad had the last decade they are going to make up for this decade. Again do a little research. Warroad is going to be pretty loaded for some time.

Keep asking me the same question, it seems to be working well. My plan is keep it the same. Do you have memory loss? Oh and keep quoting misleading stats that include a lot of teams that have already moved up.
Doesn't matter that Warroad might be good for a few years here, my point is that even a program as good as they are can have long droughts of success when they don't have a metro area to draw from. It's a fact.

Misleading stats? Only 11 of those 33 big city A title game participants are now in AA. Which means 2/3 are still in A!! These are easily verifiable numbers.

Funny how you tell me to "do a little research", when my posts contain actual research, while yours contain purely opinion. #-o
You still haven't answered my questions. How many teams will have to be moved from A to AA as per your 'little plan"? Where does it stop?
I bet I can take a good guess: (top 10 rankings)

Hermantown - move em up... duh
Cathedral - move em up... duh pt2
Warroad - they are too good, move em up
Orono - city team, move em up
EGF - across the river from a big city , move em up
Mahtomedi - City team, move em up
Denfield - in a big city, move em up
Little Falls - well... within 40 minutes of St. Cloud, so not sure... toss up
Alexandria - big youth program, win too much... move em up
Thief River Falls - well, once everyone else is moved up and they win a couple state titles they will be targeted, but we will let them stay for now.

Wouldn't it be cool to have a Class A tournament with no team in the top 50 (combined rankings)? Really, if that is what you are after, why not just go 3 classes, and the 3rd class can be similar to 9 man football, for the really small schools.

GoldenBear
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:38 am

Re: A teams playing AA at youth levels

Post by GoldenBear » Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:49 am

Orono - city team, move em up
A city team?! funniest thing I've heard in awhile. Ok, it is a City and they do have a team, so maybe that is what you meant. Have you been to downtown Orono? Let me know next time you are there. I'd love to treat you to a horse ride on the Luce Line trail. Orono's school enrollment has been about 200 a class for the last 50 years....it may have peaked at 240 and been as low as 160 during this time. A City team, that's funny! All being said, I admire them moving the youth up to AA so that they can have better competition for the teams, even if it means a team finishes in the lower level. GB

zooomx
Posts: 463
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:34 pm

Re: A teams playing AA at youth levels

Post by zooomx » Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:56 am

GoldenBear wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:49 am
Orono - city team, move em up
A city team?! funniest thing I've heard in awhile. Ok, it is a City and they do have a team, so maybe that is what you meant. Have you been to downtown Orono? Let me know next time you are there. I'd love to treat you to a horse ride on the Luce Line trail. Orono's school enrollment has been about 200 a class for the last 50 years....it may have peaked at 240 and been as low as 160 during this time. A City team, that's funny! All being said, I admire them moving the youth up to AA so that they can have better competition for the teams, even if it means a team finishes in the lower level. GB
Hmmm... I don't think you caught the sarcasm in my post.

rainier2
Posts: 581
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:24 pm

Re: A teams playing AA at youth levels

Post by rainier2 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:09 am

zooomx wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:56 am
Slap Shot wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:02 am
rainier2 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:18 pm


Doesn't matter that Warroad might be good for a few years here, my point is that even a program as good as they are can have long droughts of success when they don't have a metro area to draw from. It's a fact.

Misleading stats? Only 11 of those 33 big city A title game participants are now in AA. Which means 2/3 are still in A!! These are easily verifiable numbers.

Funny how you tell me to "do a little research", when my posts contain actual research, while yours contain purely opinion. #-o
You still haven't answered my questions. How many teams will have to be moved from A to AA as per your 'little plan"? Where does it stop?
I bet I can take a good guess: (top 10 rankings)

Hermantown - move em up... duh
Cathedral - move em up... duh pt2
Warroad - they are too good, move em up
Orono - city team, move em up
EGF - across the river from a big city , move em up
Mahtomedi - City team, move em up
Denfield - in a big city, move em up
Little Falls - well... within 40 minutes of St. Cloud, so not sure... toss up
Alexandria - big youth program, win too much... move em up
Thief River Falls - well, once everyone else is moved up and they win a couple state titles they will be targeted, but we will let them stay for now.

Wouldn't it be cool to have a Class A tournament with no team in the top 50 (combined rankings)? Really, if that is what you are after, why not just go 3 classes, and the 3rd class can be similar to 9 man football, for the really small schools.
Wouldn't it be cool if you actually read the thread before posting so you're not confused?

My proposal is that all A teams located in metro areas (Duluth, TC, St. Cloud, Mankato, Rochester) be moved to AA. Then, any of those teams can petition down to A, where they can play until they win an A title. At that time they get moved up to AA for X amount of years. Using this idea, of the teams on your list, Warroad, LF, Alex, and TRF could stay in A indefinitely.

The goal is, as much as possible, to make Class A a place for teams that don't have easy access to AA-sized talent pools. It doesn't mean no city team would ever win, but it does ensure that a city team can't start drawing from the relatively huge talent pool surrounding them and use that to dominate in A.

GoldenBear
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:38 am

Re: A teams playing AA at youth levels

Post by GoldenBear » Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:21 am

Hmmm... I don't think you caught the sarcasm in my post
Oops, sorry Zoom. The reading was so long and complex and all over the place I didn't see your sarcasm. I like sarcasm so thanks for your sarcasm and I hope I added some more sarcasm. GB

GoldenBear
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:38 am

Re: A teams playing AA at youth levels

Post by GoldenBear » Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:31 am

The goal is, as much as possible, to make Class A a place for teams that don't have easy access to AA-sized talent pools. It doesn't mean no city team would ever win, but it does ensure that a city team can't start drawing from the relatively huge talent pool surrounding them and use that to dominate in A.
Orono doesn't have access to AA size talent pool. They lose talent to BSM (Messenberg,Limesand), Tonka (Gavin Pain and others), Blake (too many to name)--Orono is a great example of why we have a Class A tourney. Small enrollment, good youth hockey program that for 45 years was tired of getting steam rolled by Edina, Tonka and Wayzata in Region 6. They now have a chance to win a state championship. Only one thus far in the two class format of 25 years. That being said, I'm still in favor of one class tournament. GB

zooomx
Posts: 463
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:34 pm

Re: A teams playing AA at youth levels

Post by zooomx » Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:50 am

GoldenBear wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:21 am
Hmmm... I don't think you caught the sarcasm in my post
Oops, sorry Zoom. The reading was so long and complex and all over the place I didn't see your sarcasm. I like sarcasm so thanks for your sarcasm and I hope I added some more sarcasm. GB
Are you being sarcastic? :lol:

zooomx
Posts: 463
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:34 pm

Re: A teams playing AA at youth levels

Post by zooomx » Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:56 am

rainier2 wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:09 am
zooomx wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:56 am
Slap Shot wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:02 am


You still haven't answered my questions. How many teams will have to be moved from A to AA as per your 'little plan"? Where does it stop?
I bet I can take a good guess: (top 10 rankings)

Hermantown - move em up... duh
Cathedral - move em up... duh pt2
Warroad - they are too good, move em up
Orono - city team, move em up
EGF - across the river from a big city , move em up
Mahtomedi - City team, move em up
Denfield - in a big city, move em up
Little Falls - well... within 40 minutes of St. Cloud, so not sure... toss up
Alexandria - big youth program, win too much... move em up
Thief River Falls - well, once everyone else is moved up and they win a couple state titles they will be targeted, but we will let them stay for now.

Wouldn't it be cool to have a Class A tournament with no team in the top 50 (combined rankings)? Really, if that is what you are after, why not just go 3 classes, and the 3rd class can be similar to 9 man football, for the really small schools.
Wouldn't it be cool if you actually read the thread before posting so you're not confused?

My proposal is that all A teams located in metro areas (Duluth, TC, St. Cloud, Mankato, Rochester) be moved to AA. Then, any of those teams can petition down to A, where they can play until they win an A title. At that time they get moved up to AA for X amount of years. Using this idea, of the teams on your list, Warroad, LF, Alex, and TRF could stay in A indefinitely.

The goal is, as much as possible, to make Class A a place for teams that don't have easy access to AA-sized talent pools. It doesn't mean no city team would ever win, but it does ensure that a city team can't start drawing from the relatively huge talent pool surrounding them and use that to dominate in A.
Yeah, unfortunately, I have read all of your arguments. Just because you think Class A hockey should be one thing, doesn't mean we all want it to be so. My point above is that between you, and others, on this board we would remove 8 of the top 10 teams in Class A. Personally, I think Class A should continue to have stronger teams like EGF, Alex, Orono, etc. I have agreed with you that I think Hermantown should move up and I think Cathedral is heading that way too. Just don't understand why EGF is in your cross hairs. AND... I don'tbelieve that you would agree to let Warroad and Alexandria stay in A if they had a run of success after you already ran out the other good teams in Class A.

Slap Shot
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Re: A teams playing AA at youth levels

Post by Slap Shot » Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:18 pm

A metro schools designated as "Class A" by enrollment standards don't have the same access to bodies as those in AA just because of their proximity open enrollment or not. And Class A schools outside the metro can recruit with the best of them including Hermantown. This is a really piss-poor justification for the, "little plan".

rainier2
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Re: A teams playing AA at youth levels

Post by rainier2 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:08 pm

Slap Shot wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:18 pm
A metro schools designated as "Class A" by enrollment standards don't have the same access to bodies as those in AA just because of their proximity open enrollment or not. And Class A schools outside the metro can recruit with the best of them including Hermantown. This is a really piss-poor justification for the, "little plan".
You can make any claim you want, but without backing them up with examples or evidence, they are essentially meaningless.

Can you give an example of why metro A schools don't have same access as those in AA? In Duluth, every good player from East could, theoretically, open enroll to Hermantown. Couldn't Wayzata players open enroll to Orono pretty easily? Does every Orono player live in the Orono school district? Did they play for Orono all the way through youth?

And what Class A schools outside metro areas "recruit with the best of them"?

And why did you call my plan "little"? Do you have a bigger plan? :D
Last edited by rainier2 on Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rainier2
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Re: A teams playing AA at youth levels

Post by rainier2 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:17 pm

zooomx wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:56 am
rainier2 wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:09 am
zooomx wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:56 am


I bet I can take a good guess: (top 10 rankings)

Hermantown - move em up... duh
Cathedral - move em up... duh pt2
Warroad - they are too good, move em up
Orono - city team, move em up
EGF - across the river from a big city , move em up
Mahtomedi - City team, move em up
Denfield - in a big city, move em up
Little Falls - well... within 40 minutes of St. Cloud, so not sure... toss up
Alexandria - big youth program, win too much... move em up
Thief River Falls - well, once everyone else is moved up and they win a couple state titles they will be targeted, but we will let them stay for now.

Wouldn't it be cool to have a Class A tournament with no team in the top 50 (combined rankings)? Really, if that is what you are after, why not just go 3 classes, and the 3rd class can be similar to 9 man football, for the really small schools.
Wouldn't it be cool if you actually read the thread before posting so you're not confused?

My proposal is that all A teams located in metro areas (Duluth, TC, St. Cloud, Mankato, Rochester) be moved to AA. Then, any of those teams can petition down to A, where they can play until they win an A title. At that time they get moved up to AA for X amount of years. Using this idea, of the teams on your list, Warroad, LF, Alex, and TRF could stay in A indefinitely.

The goal is, as much as possible, to make Class A a place for teams that don't have easy access to AA-sized talent pools. It doesn't mean no city team would ever win, but it does ensure that a city team can't start drawing from the relatively huge talent pool surrounding them and use that to dominate in A.
Yeah, unfortunately, I have read all of your arguments. Just because you think Class A hockey should be one thing, doesn't mean we all want it to be so. My point above is that between you, and others, on this board we would remove 8 of the top 10 teams in Class A. Personally, I think Class A should continue to have stronger teams like EGF, Alex, Orono, etc. I have agreed with you that I think Hermantown should move up and I think Cathedral is heading that way too. Just don't understand why EGF is in your cross hairs. AND... I don'tbelieve that you would agree to let Warroad and Alexandria stay in A if they had a run of success after you already ran out the other good teams in Class A.
I have no doubt you've read all my arguments, it's your comprehension of them that I have serious doubts about. For example:

Again, under the system I like, Alexandria and Warroad could stay in A and win as many A titles as they wanted. Not sure what I wrote that would make you think otherwise, but you are free to hallucinate whatever you want.

And 7TIMECHAMPS brought up EGF as an example of an A team that would get hosed by my idea, so that is why I described in detail how they would probably be just fine in 8AA. He put him in the "cross hairs", not me, I just took him up on the offer.

I'm glad you think "Class A should continue to have stronger teams like EGF, Alex, Orono", but remember, as you said "Just because you think Class A hockey should be one thing, doesn't mean we all want it to be so." :D

goldy313
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Re: A teams playing AA at youth levels

Post by goldy313 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:20 pm

To flip this......
Rochester, a city of over 110,000, fields 6 bantam teams and won’t play AA in youth. Youth hockey hub has the bantam A team rated #1 in the state, how does Minnesota Hockey allow this. This is sandbagging on a scale pretty much unheard of.

These kids get split into the 4 high schools later on, so this is trophy chasing.

rainier2
Posts: 581
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:24 pm

Re: A teams playing AA at youth levels

Post by rainier2 » Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:47 am

goldy313 wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:20 pm
To flip this......
Rochester, a city of over 110,000, fields 6 bantam teams and won’t play AA in youth. Youth hockey hub has the bantam A team rated #1 in the state, how does Minnesota Hockey allow this. This is sandbagging on a scale pretty much unheard of.

These kids get split into the 4 high schools later on, so this is trophy chasing.
That is weird. It's Bizarro Hermantown! :D

Slap Shot
Posts: 840
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:44 pm

Re: A teams playing AA at youth levels

Post by Slap Shot » Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:25 am

rainier2 wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:08 pm
Slap Shot wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:18 pm
A metro schools designated as "Class A" by enrollment standards don't have the same access to bodies as those in AA just because of their proximity open enrollment or not. And Class A schools outside the metro can recruit with the best of them including Hermantown. This is a really piss-poor justification for the, "little plan".
You can make any claim you want, but without backing them up with examples or evidence, they are essentially meaningless.

Can you give an example of why metro A schools don't have same access as those in AA? In Duluth, every good player from East could, theoretically, open enroll to Hermantown. Couldn't Wayzata players open enroll to Orono pretty easily? Does every Orono player live in the Orono school district? Did they play for Orono all the way through youth?
You're the one making the claim A schools near the metro have "just as much access". By enrollment clearly they do not, and from an open enrollment perspective "open enrollment" mean they can come from and go to anywhere in the state.

Also AA players very, very rarely open enroll to A so yeah there's your "evidence".

MeFirst
Posts: 5
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Re: A teams playing AA at youth levels

Post by MeFirst » Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:12 pm

I'm new to youth hockey as my son is a first year mini-mite so humor me... Why does Sibley play Bantam AA but all other levels are A?

bardown27
Posts: 682
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:20 am

Re: A teams playing AA at youth levels

Post by bardown27 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:22 pm

MeFirst wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:12 pm
I'm new to youth hockey as my son is a first year mini-mite so humor me... Why does Sibley play Bantam AA but all other levels are A?
For the most part, they created the BAA team to allow all (or most) of the kids who will play HS hockey @ STA play together as bantams. Similar to St. Paul Highland Park Capitals is all (or most) of the kids who are going to attend CDH.

MeFirst
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:21 am

Re: A teams playing AA at youth levels

Post by MeFirst » Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:42 am

bardown27 wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:22 pm
MeFirst wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:12 pm
I'm new to youth hockey as my son is a first year mini-mite so humor me... Why does Sibley play Bantam AA but all other levels are A?
For the most part, they created the BAA team to allow all (or most) of the kids who will play HS hockey @ STA play together as bantams. Similar to St. Paul Highland Park Capitals is all (or most) of the kids who are going to attend CDH.
You can only play on the team as a Sibley district resident, correct? So that many kids in the Sibley district go to STA?

I know there is some level of partnership but I thought it was just based on geographical convenience rather than the number of Sibley residents attending STA.

bardown27
Posts: 682
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:20 am

Re: A teams playing AA at youth levels

Post by bardown27 » Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:28 am

MeFirst wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:42 am
bardown27 wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:22 pm
MeFirst wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:12 pm
I'm new to youth hockey as my son is a first year mini-mite so humor me... Why does Sibley play Bantam AA but all other levels are A?
For the most part, they created the BAA team to allow all (or most) of the kids who will play HS hockey @ STA play together as bantams. Similar to St. Paul Highland Park Capitals is all (or most) of the kids who are going to attend CDH.
You can only play on the team as a Sibley district resident, correct? So that many kids in the Sibley district go to STA?

I know there is some level of partnership but I thought it was just based on geographical convenience rather than the number of Sibley residents attending STA.
Not entirely true. I know one of their goalies this year is a Farmington kid, a goalie they had last year was from Shakopee. Here is a link to their roster, with some kids having their hometown listed:

https://www.eliteprospects.com/team/191 ... -bantam-aa

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