One Change to the Playoffs/State Tournament

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Joe2015
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Re: One Change to the Playoffs/State Tournament

Post by Joe2015 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:15 am

Eagles93 wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:23 pm
One thing I'd change is to avoid the current pointless quarterfinal games. Here are some stats from the last 3 years in class AA playoffs:
  • #1 and #2 seeds are 47-0 in quarterfinal games
  • Average score in those 47 games is 6.89 to 0.85
  • 26 of 47 games resulted in a shutout
  • 28 of 47 games ended in run time
Instead of the current method of bracket play, do play-in games similar to youth hockey district playoffs. So, for instance, in Section 7AA:

Round 1 (@ high seed - Tue)
#5 Duluth East vs #8 Duluth Marshall
#6 Elk River vs #7 Anoka

Round 2 (@ high seed - Thu)
#3 Cloquet vs Elk River/Anoka
#4 Forest Lake vs Duluth East/Duluth Marshall

Semi-Finals (neutral site - Sat)
#1 Andover vs Forest Lake/Duluth East/Duluth Marshall
#2 Grand Rapids vs Cloquet/Elk River/Anoka

Championship (neutral site - Thu)

Not a big change, and it creates more excitement for crummy teams. Maybe an 8 seed gets a mild upset and an extra playoff game instead of playing the 1 seed in the first round where the only goal is avoiding running time. I'm sure Duluth Marshall was really excited for the bus ride down to Andover today to get destroyed by 8 goals.
It also makes seedings more important as you can get one (#3/#4) or two (#1/#2) byes.
I like the idea! But as you pointed out, this makes seeding HUGE! I think you would need to move to a more uniform seeding method (QRF or something similar) just so you dont have coaches bias play a factor in the seeding process.

goldy313
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Re: One Change to the Playoffs/State Tournament

Post by goldy313 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:51 am

Football has a rule change proposal that would mandate scheduling every team in your section to make seeding schools for playoffs a more straight forward endeavor. Mankato West, for example, can only play New Prague in their section during the regular season.

Hockey could do the same, have every school in AA play everyone in their section. If you play twice each game is worth 2 points, if you play once (because there is no need for South to play John Marshall twice most years) it is a 4 point game. At the end of the season teams are seeded by total points with set tie breakers.

Eagles93
Posts: 212
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 5:04 pm

Re: One Change to the Playoffs/State Tournament

Post by Eagles93 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:53 am

Joe2015 wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:15 am
I like the idea! But as you pointed out, this makes seeding HUGE! I think you would need to move to a more uniform seeding method (QRF or something similar) just so you dont have coaches bias play a factor in the seeding process.
I don't know exactly how the seeding process works. Maybe each section is different? Clearly they don't use QRF exclusively as the seedings don't always match those rankings. I would think it'd be a simple method of each coach in the section ranking the other teams (excluding his own team) and then they average out the rankings? e.g. if 8 teams in the section, a team gets 7 points for #1 ranking, 6 points for #2 ranking, etc., then add them up for each team? So in order to "rig" it a coach would have to rank a bad team really high or vice-versa? If this is the process, is the voting open, meaning all coaches see each other coach's rankings?

We could debate which process to use (QRF, PageStat, KRACH, etc.) but if there is blatant rigging going on (which I don't think I have noticed) then a uniform method would be better.

Eagles93
Posts: 212
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 5:04 pm

Re: One Change to the Playoffs/State Tournament

Post by Eagles93 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:02 am

goldy313 wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:51 am
Football has a rule change proposal that would mandate scheduling every team in your section to make seeding schools for playoffs a more straight forward endeavor. Mankato West, for example, can only play New Prague in their section during the regular season.

Hockey could do the same, have every school in AA play everyone in their section. If you play twice each game is worth 2 points, if you play once (because there is no need for South to play John Marshall twice most years) it is a 4 point game. At the end of the season teams are seeded by total points with set tie breakers.
This would be a great idea for hockey. At first I was thinking it may be tough for some schools in a large conference (like the Lakevilles with 18 conference games) but they'd still have 11 non-conference games to work with to schedule tough non-conference opponents and holiday tournaments. (4 of their conference games would also be section games.)

Makes sense to me... hopefully it passes in football then follows suit in hockey.

MWS coach
Posts: 362
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:31 am

Re: One Change to the Playoffs/State Tournament

Post by MWS coach » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:46 am

Eagles93 wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:53 am
Joe2015 wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:15 am
I like the idea! But as you pointed out, this makes seeding HUGE! I think you would need to move to a more uniform seeding method (QRF or something similar) just so you dont have coaches bias play a factor in the seeding process.
I don't know exactly how the seeding process works. Maybe each section is different? Clearly they don't use QRF exclusively as the seedings don't always match those rankings. I would think it'd be a simple method of each coach in the section ranking the other teams (excluding his own team) and then they average out the rankings? e.g. if 8 teams in the section, a team gets 7 points for #1 ranking, 6 points for #2 ranking, etc., then add them up for each team? So in order to "rig" it a coach would have to rank a bad team really high or vice-versa? If this is the process, is the voting open, meaning all coaches see each other coach's rankings?

We could debate which process to use (QRF, PageStat, KRACH, etc.) but if there is blatant rigging going on (which I don't think I have noticed) then a uniform method would be better.
Clearly you have never seen the outcome from the basement at Tobies!!! :lol:

MWS coach
Posts: 362
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:31 am

Re: One Change to the Playoffs/State Tournament

Post by MWS coach » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:48 am

Eagles93 wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:02 am
goldy313 wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:51 am
Football has a rule change proposal that would mandate scheduling every team in your section to make seeding schools for playoffs a more straight forward endeavor. Mankato West, for example, can only play New Prague in their section during the regular season.

Hockey could do the same, have every school in AA play everyone in their section. If you play twice each game is worth 2 points, if you play once (because there is no need for South to play John Marshall twice most years) it is a 4 point game. At the end of the season teams are seeded by total points with set tie breakers.
This would be a great idea for hockey. At first I was thinking it may be tough for some schools in a large conference (like the Lakevilles with 18 conference games) but they'd still have 11 non-conference games to work with to schedule tough non-conference opponents and holiday tournaments. (4 of their conference games would also be section games.)

Makes sense to me... hopefully it passes in football then follows suit in hockey.
Or better yet, get rid of the conferences and mandate sections as the conference...... Although concerns about the amount of travel in Sections 7 & 8 would likely be a road block for MSHSL.

karl(east)
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Re: One Change to the Playoffs/State Tournament

Post by karl(east) » Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:04 pm

Eagles93 wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:02 am
goldy313 wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:51 am
Football has a rule change proposal that would mandate scheduling every team in your section to make seeding schools for playoffs a more straight forward endeavor. Mankato West, for example, can only play New Prague in their section during the regular season.

Hockey could do the same, have every school in AA play everyone in their section. If you play twice each game is worth 2 points, if you play once (because there is no need for South to play John Marshall twice most years) it is a 4 point game. At the end of the season teams are seeded by total points with set tie breakers.
This would be a great idea for hockey. At first I was thinking it may be tough for some schools in a large conference (like the Lakevilles with 18 conference games) but they'd still have 11 non-conference games to work with to schedule tough non-conference opponents and holiday tournaments. (4 of their conference games would also be section games.)

Makes sense to me... hopefully it passes in football then follows suit in hockey.
I've been an advocate for some version of this approach for a while now. It takes away all the subjectivity of a coaches' meeting and removes the mysterious intrigue and questionable incentives created by the computerized systems. It makes on-ice results the sole deciding factor, makes regular season games mean something, and gets rid of some of the weird gamesmanship where some teams refuse to schedule others in their section. Decide it on the ice and with a simple standings system that anyone can understand.

Usthockey13
Posts: 547
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Re: One Change to the Playoffs/State Tournament

Post by Usthockey13 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:17 pm

I think they should just get rid of conference period. Make every team independent and like said above need to play every team in the section atleast once. Then no need to QRF or coaches meetings.

ryguyMN
Posts: 370
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:08 pm
Location: Western WI

Re: One Change to the Playoffs/State Tournament

Post by ryguyMN » Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:11 pm

Eagles93 wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:23 pm
One thing I'd change is to avoid the current pointless quarterfinal games. Here are some stats from the last 3 years in class AA playoffs:
  • #1 and #2 seeds are 47-0 in quarterfinal games
  • Average score in those 47 games is 6.89 to 0.85
  • 26 of 47 games resulted in a shutout
  • 28 of 47 games ended in run time
Instead of the current method of bracket play, do play-in games similar to youth hockey district playoffs. So, for instance, in Section 7AA:

Round 1 (@ high seed - Tue)
#5 Duluth East vs #8 Duluth Marshall
#6 Elk River vs #7 Anoka

Round 2 (@ high seed - Thu)
#3 Cloquet vs Elk River/Anoka
#4 Forest Lake vs Duluth East/Duluth Marshall

Semi-Finals (neutral site - Sat)
#1 Andover vs Forest Lake/Duluth East/Duluth Marshall
#2 Grand Rapids vs Cloquet/Elk River/Anoka

Championship (neutral site - Thu)

Not a big change, and it creates more excitement for crummy teams. Maybe an 8 seed gets a mild upset and an extra playoff game instead of playing the 1 seed in the first round where the only goal is avoiding running time. I'm sure Duluth Marshall was really excited for the bus ride down to Andover today to get destroyed by 8 goals.
It also makes seedings more important as you can get one (#3/#4) or two (#1/#2) byes.
Maybe something along the lines of having a winning overall or conference record to qualify for the playoffs to make the playoffs more lean? Perhaps have so many playoff spots available, say 32 in each class. Of course, strength of schedule would need to be factored, so some computerized system would need to be utilized. Have the final four or keep the current eight team structure at Xcel. Just thinking out loud.

I know for at least HS football in Wisconsin, teams need to have a winning conference record to be considered for one of the 224 available playoff spots (as of Fall 2019). Exactly .500 are "bubble" teams and are not guaranteed a playoff spot - only after all playoff spots have not been filled. Independents need six wins to be considered.
Ryan

Slap Shot
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Re: One Change to the Playoffs/State Tournament

Post by Slap Shot » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:28 am

goldy313 wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:51 am
Football has a rule change proposal that would mandate scheduling every team in your section to make seeding schools for playoffs a more straight forward endeavor. Mankato West, for example, can only play New Prague in their section during the regular season.

Hockey could do the same, have every school in AA play everyone in their section. If you play twice each game is worth 2 points, if you play once (because there is no need for South to play John Marshall twice most years) it is a 4 point game. At the end of the season teams are seeded by total points with set tie breakers.
In hockey that would be 14 games right? And do conferences still exist in this scenario? If they do a lot of teams are in conferences with several teams not in their section which would really limit the ability to pick your NC schedule. Also it would be lame to award points differently due to the # of games played against each other. That sounds like a nightmare to schedule. Theoretically teams could play each other 3 teams in a year although it would be rare.

Also in football 6A doesn't even have sections.

The current system is not perfect but there will never be one that is perfect, and it seems people are trying way too hard to fix something that really isn't broken - at least in hockey.

Joe2015
Posts: 240
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Re: One Change to the Playoffs/State Tournament

Post by Joe2015 » Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:44 am

How about each section gets dividied into two sub-sections of 4 to 5 teams? You HAVE to play every team in your sub-section twice (home and home). That way, instead of having to committ 14 games to a section schedule, you only have to do 6 to 8 (and quite often those games would have been on your schedule anyway).

Like Section 7AA would be:
North: Duluth East, Grand Rapids, Cloquet, Duluth Marshall
South: Andover, Anoka, Elk River, Forest Lake

You would then seed 1 thru 4 based on the sub-section standings. For the section brackets, you would have two options. 1) have the teams play within the sub-section for the first two rounds, leaving the section championship as the North vs South winner. or 2) have the seeds cross-over: ie first round would be 1N vs 4S, 2S vs 3N etc. I prefer option two, in the case that one sub-section is stacked compared to the other, you could still have two teams from a sub-section play each other in the section championship.

Advantages to this system: the sub-section games would be HUGE! Those games (which in many cases are already rivalry games) are taken up a notch. Also, section seedings would be easy and clean with NO computers AND no coaching bias in the seedings. Would be easy to follow the standings as you go thru the regular season.

Disadvantages: Games outside of the sub-section become much more meaningless.

jdh
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Re: One Change to the Playoffs/State Tournament

Post by jdh » Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:00 am

Green and White Fan wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:25 pm
One section playoff change I would like to see, is the 8AA semi finals be played at a neutral site and both games the same afternoon evening. It used to be that way, but the unfortunately if it goes to a neutral site venue, I am guessing the southern part of the Section would prevail and want it in St. Cloud. Bemidji would be a little more fair and the Sanford would make a great venue. Play it on a Saturday and the championship the following Wednesday.
A neutral site for the 8AA SEMIS would be a great event, and the Sanford Center a fine venue. Problem is if the Beavers have a home series that Saturday. First game would have to start at 11:00a.m. or so just to be sure the games are over by 5:00 ( I’m thinking OTs). Beaver games now start at 6:00 on Saturday.
Great idea Green and White. I’d love to see it happen. How about a triple header : Semifial game ; Beavers vs Whoever ; second Semifinal.

BSUBeaver
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Re: One Change to the Playoffs/State Tournament

Post by BSUBeaver » Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:59 pm

jdh wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:00 am
Green and White Fan wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:25 pm
One section playoff change I would like to see, is the 8AA semi finals be played at a neutral site and both games the same afternoon evening. It used to be that way, but the unfortunately if it goes to a neutral site venue, I am guessing the southern part of the Section would prevail and want it in St. Cloud. Bemidji would be a little more fair and the Sanford would make a great venue. Play it on a Saturday and the championship the following Wednesday.
A neutral site for the 8AA SEMIS would be a great event, and the Sanford Center a fine venue. Problem is if the Beavers have a home series that Saturday. First game would have to start at 11:00a.m. or so just to be sure the games are over by 5:00 ( I’m thinking OTs). Beaver games now start at 6:00 on Saturday.
Great idea Green and White. I’d love to see it happen. How about a triple header : Semifial game ; Beavers vs Whoever ; second Semifinal.
Semifinal, Beaver game, semifinal would be an arena nightmare though with having to clear the arena for each game. In theory, great idea, but each party is going to want to make sure they are getting their ticket revenue and no one is getting a freebie.

elliott70
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Re: One Change to the Playoffs/State Tournament

Post by elliott70 » Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:05 pm

And the Beavers let no one on their ice for at least two hours prior to game time.

jdh
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Re: One Change to the Playoffs/State Tournament

Post by jdh » Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:34 pm

BSUBeaver wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:59 pm
jdh wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:00 am
Green and White Fan wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:25 pm
One section playoff change I would like to see, is the 8AA semi finals be played at a neutral site and both games the same afternoon evening. It used to be that way, but the unfortunately if it goes to a neutral site venue, I am guessing the southern part of the Section would prevail and want it in St. Cloud. Bemidji would be a little more fair and the Sanford would make a great venue. Play it on a Saturday and the championship the following Wednesday.
A neutral site for the 8AA SEMIS would be a great event, and the Sanford Center a fine venue. Problem is if the Beavers have a home series that Saturday. First game would have to start at 11:00a.m. or so just to be sure the games are over by 5:00 ( I’m thinking OTs). Beaver games now start at 6:00 on Saturday.
Great idea Green and White. I’d love to see it happen. How about a triple header : Semifial game ; Beavers vs Whoever ; second Semifinal.
Semifinal, Beaver game, semifinal would be an arena nightmare though with having to clear the arena for each game. In theory, great idea, but each party is going to want to make sure they are getting their ticket revenue and no one is getting a freebie.
Didn’t think of that.

BSUBeaver
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Re: One Change to the Playoffs/State Tournament

Post by BSUBeaver » Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:06 pm

elliott70 wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:05 pm
And the Beavers let no one on their ice for at least two hours prior to game time.
I have a feeling that is a WCHA rule. There have been cases where the Women's game in the afternoon has gotten within that two hour window. With both the men and women in the WCHA (for now), I would guess they look the other way in that case.

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