Future of Duluth Marshall

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elliott70
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Re: Future of Duluth Marshall

Post by elliott70 » Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:01 pm

Stang5280 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:35 pm
I know there is general disdain for private schools on the board, and I understand that sentiment at times, but I just wanted to add that I feel like the united concern and empathy everyone is showing for Marshall’s plight (and that of its players) is great. The idea of losing a program as historically significant as Marshall, dating back to the Cathedral days, is a loss for everyone who cares about Minnesota high school hockey.
Very true and well stated

kniven
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Re: Future of Duluth Marshall

Post by kniven » Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:04 pm

Stang5280 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:35 pm
I know there is general disdain for private schools on the board, and I understand that sentiment at times, but I just wanted to add that I feel like the united concern and empathy everyone is showing for Marshall’s plight (and that of its players) is great. The idea of losing a program as historically significant as Marshall, dating back to the Cathedral days, is a loss for everyone who cares about Minnesota high school hockey.
👍
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karl(east)
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Re: Future of Duluth Marshall

Post by karl(east) » Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:21 pm

I, too, would be sad to see Marshall go. Incredible to think they could go from being a top 15ish AA program two seasons ago to nonexistent next season without a little infusion. Being a private school gives schools freedom to collect students from all over that can turn an unheard-of program into a contender overnight, but if there's a downside to that private model, I've always argued it's that there's no pipeline to provide a baseline, and it runs the risk of seeing those numbers dry up just as quickly.

In the past, Marshall has often been a release valve of sorts for the East program, as East put out so many varsity-caliber players that there wasn't enough room for them at East. Relatively few of Marshall's top players over the years have been East youth kids--a lot more from Denfeld, Hermantown, Central back in the day, or even further afield--but East kids usually filled out the roster and gave Marshall the depth it needed to be competitive. Inconveniently, East is now in arguably its biggest down cycle in decades (though the long-term outlook certainly isn't bad based on youth results), so there's not much in the way of that support. As others have alluded to, I think their best path to survival in the near term is to serve a similar function for Hermantown.

Marshall also just announced some boosts in need-based financial aid for students. Not sure how much that helps most hockey families, but I give them credit for trying new things.

kniven
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Re: Future of Duluth Marshall

Post by kniven » Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:59 pm

Interesting. a feeder/pipeline for Hermantown’s AA and A players who won’t play on a high school team crowded with transfers and open enrollment kids. Kinda like the Hermantown Hawks junior gold team but a high school hockey team. That’s a powerful chip on those kids shoulders that then play for Duluth Marshall. I second this motion in this capacity, Marshall would be a very good hockey program. A lot of great kids get squeezed out at Hermantown. This makes total sense. 👍
“218 hockey” Boys of the NOrth ❤️

Wet Paint
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Re: Future of Duluth Marshall

Post by Wet Paint » Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:13 pm

kniven wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:59 pm
Interesting. a feeder/pipeline for Hermantown’s AA and A players who won’t play on a high school team crowded with transfers and open enrollment kids. Kinda like the Hermantown Hawks junior gold team but a high school hockey team. That’s a powerful chip on those kids shoulders that then play for Duluth Marshall. I second this motion in this capacity, Marshall would be a very good hockey program. A lot of great kids get squeezed out at Hermantown. This makes total sense. 👍
Assuming of course that the players who get cut off of Hermantown want to keep on playing and that they can afford to go to DM. I have not checked their prices but they have to be at least 15K per year to go there. How many of those kids can/will pay that? Not very many I am sure. Your points about chips on the shoulder though is correct. That would be a game with some hitting going on for sure. I am in the camp that thinks a co-op with Denfeld seems to make the most sense at this point. Denfeld needs a rink and being able to go up there to practice and play games without haveing to go to the mix against East and etc would make sense. Better for East and for Denfeld I think.

Lumberjack
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Re: Future of Duluth Marshall

Post by Lumberjack » Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:05 pm

kniven wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:48 pm
greenwayraider wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:14 pm
The worst thing about this is that another Metro team may be assigned to 7AA. The most likely would be Blaine. They are already in Section 7 in some other sports.
Blaine. Wow! That would be crazy!! Blaine hockey is pretty amazing!!! Let Hermantown stay in 7A. Blaine - come join the party =) Now of course, Blaine would only play Duluth East and Grand Rapids. Metro teams seem to not want to waste their time playing CEC?
Kniven, do you ever go back and read your posts? Cloquet’s schedule carries a nice mix of metro schools this season (and seasons past for that matter). Good god man! Please stick to video as your comments are not representative of this program.

kniven
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Re: Future of Duluth Marshall

Post by kniven » Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:09 pm

Lumberjack wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:05 pm
kniven wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:48 pm
greenwayraider wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:14 pm
The worst thing about this is that another Metro team may be assigned to 7AA. The most likely would be Blaine. They are already in Section 7 in some other sports.
Blaine. Wow! That would be crazy!! Blaine hockey is pretty amazing!!! Let Hermantown stay in 7A. Blaine - come join the party =) Now of course, Blaine would only play Duluth East and Grand Rapids. Metro teams seem to not want to waste their time playing CEC?
Kniven, do you ever go back and read your posts? Cloquet’s schedule carries a nice mix of metro schools this season (and seasons past for that matter). Good god man! Please stick to video as your comments are not representative of this program.
I have my opinion for me. Not you, lusternabk. I’m not concerned what you think. 🙄. #goodGrief
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HockeyStorm
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Re: Future of Duluth Marshall

Post by HockeyStorm » Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:05 am

Coach Flaherty was the backbone of building and maintaining the Marshall boys program, ever since he got sick the numbers have been in a downward trend.

blueblood
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Re: Future of Duluth Marshall

Post by blueblood » Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:03 am

Don’t mind knife boy. He occasionally forgets to take his meds 🤮
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Wet Paint
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Re: Future of Duluth Marshall

Post by Wet Paint » Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:08 am

HockeyStorm wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:05 am
Coach Flaherty was the backbone of building and maintaining the Marshall boys program, ever since he got sick the numbers have been in a downward trend.
I think that is part of it. I think that what is going on hereis deeper than that. Hockey numbers are down across the board. People simply can't keep up with the costs in terms of dollars and time anymore. You hvae to play year around, do summer camps, summer teams and spend a lot of money on equipment just to be able to keep up with the other kids in the association. Then you run the risk of your kid not even making a team if they are good enough because some kid from out of state or from another town is gonna move in and your kid gets cut to make room for him. How would you like to have a kid playing at Hermantown right now at the PeeWee AA level and be looking at the thousands of dollars you are going to need to spend in the coming years to keep the kid on the AA level to give him a chance to make the high school team when you know that somebody is talking to a kid in some smaller program and that kid might transfer in to Hermantown? I have not been in the position and thank God I will never be in it but I can't imagine it is a fun spot to be in. Or simply that the kid's parents might move him in so he can play in A state and get noticed. East is the same way. What do you do? Take a hard look at your kid and the chances that some super star for some other surrounding town will suddenly show up on the roster and your kid gets cut? Pretty much the only safe kids are the kids who are either so good you just can't cut them or those kids who are so connected that they won't get cut due to pressue on the coaches. Take a look at the Hermantown thread and read about all of the places those kids come from. East is no better, they have had multiple kids move into the area, play hockey and leave right away. So your option is to transfer your kid into a shcool district that has kids running from it to the point that the other local schools are full and not accepting any more transfers in unless there are "special circumstnaces", go to a private school and pay thousands each year in tuition so that your kid can get onto a team that might not even be there next year, or tell the kid it was a fun run and we are going to take the money that we would have spent on trying to get you onto a team that you might get to play hockey on and buy a snowmobile and an ice fishing rig. Back in the day you could play hockey for fun. Now you can't. It costs too much time and treasure to just put your kid into a position so that they might have a chance to play hockey with their buddies in high school even without the whole transfer/recruiting stuff going on. I don't have kids in high school anymore. Don't have grand kids who are coming up who might or might not want to play hockey so I am pretty much an outsider looking in. I don't see high school hockey existing in it's current form in 10 years. I suspect that we will see MN go the way of the other states with Midgit teams, AAA teams and etc. DM is entering into the descion loop right now. There will be lots of schools following them into it.

Jeffy95
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Re: Future of Duluth Marshall

Post by Jeffy95 » Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:11 am

HockeyStorm wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:05 am
Coach Flaherty was the backbone of building and maintaining the Marshall boys program, ever since he got sick the numbers have been in a downward trend.
Yes, Coach Flaherty is a good guy, well respected and a good Hockey Coach. He was the reason a lot of Hockey Players went to Marshall.

Marshall's enrollment is declining across the board. They are brainstorming and rolling out new ideas to try to attract Students. In the past I think it was just blindly accepted by so many people that Private Schools were better at Educating kids than Publics. All of the research and evidence shows this isn't true, but I don't know if anybody ever bothered to check it out. The University of Virginia concluded the most recent and extensive study into the subject and proved what a lot of us already knew. It's all about Demographics regardless of where you go to school, provided it's a safe environment, of course. It's pretty easy to tout test scores and SAT results when all of the kids that go there come from families where Education is a big priority. I think more parents are doing their research now before writing that check. The Washington Post article below explains the results.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/ans ... -matters/

elliott70
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Re: Future of Duluth Marshall

Post by elliott70 » Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:25 am

If a kid is playing for fun, Junior Gold should be an option.
Not available everywhere, but those areas that have larger numbers where most of these problems as described exist offer it or will offer it if asked.

Schotzy
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Re: Future of Duluth Marshall

Post by Schotzy » Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:26 am

Jeffy95 wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:11 am
It's pretty easy to tout test scores and SAT results when all of the kids that go there come from families where Education is a big priority.
I think that is big difference with a private school. The overwhelming majority of kids at Marshall come from families that have made education the priority. Why would you pay for a private school if that was not the case. That is not to say that the same kid can not achieve high academic success in a public school. The main difference is the environment. All...Most the kids in private schools are on the same page in terms of the value their families have placed on their education. This is an immeasurable benefit that goes a long way to instilling great educational habits that carry them on to college.

Anyway.....Yes, coach Flaherty made a big difference for the program over the years, but he also benefited from some unusual circumstances such as the two year hiatus of Randolph at East in the mid 2000's that saw plenty of players come to Marshall Those kids helped build a contender and laid the foundation for a number of the following years for the Toppers. Other factors come in to play here as well that go beyond the coach. Demographics probably being the biggest. There are simply fewer kids playing hockey, especially with this current age group.

Schotzy
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Re: Future of Duluth Marshall

Post by Schotzy » Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:31 am

elliott70 wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:25 am
If a kid is playing for fun, Junior Gold should be an option.
Not available everywhere, but those areas that have larger numbers where most of these problems as described exist offer it or will offer it if asked.
I agree to a point. Jr. Gold is not for everyone. There is a reason they make the teams shake hands before the game rather at it's conclusion.

rainier2
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Re: Future of Duluth Marshall

Post by rainier2 » Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:36 am

Wet Paint wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:08 am
HockeyStorm wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:05 am
Coach Flaherty was the backbone of building and maintaining the Marshall boys program, ever since he got sick the numbers have been in a downward trend.
I think that is part of it. I think that what is going on hereis deeper than that. Hockey numbers are down across the board. People simply can't keep up with the costs in terms of dollars and time anymore. You hvae to play year around, do summer camps, summer teams and spend a lot of money on equipment just to be able to keep up with the other kids in the association. Then you run the risk of your kid not even making a team if they are good enough because some kid from out of state or from another town is gonna move in and your kid gets cut to make room for him. How would you like to have a kid playing at Hermantown right now at the PeeWee AA level and be looking at the thousands of dollars you are going to need to spend in the coming years to keep the kid on the AA level to give him a chance to make the high school team when you know that somebody is talking to a kid in some smaller program and that kid might transfer in to Hermantown? I have not been in the position and thank God I will never be in it but I can't imagine it is a fun spot to be in. Or simply that the kid's parents might move him in so he can play in A state and get noticed. East is the same way. What do you do? Take a hard look at your kid and the chances that some super star for some other surrounding town will suddenly show up on the roster and your kid gets cut? Pretty much the only safe kids are the kids who are either so good you just can't cut them or those kids who are so connected that they won't get cut due to pressue on the coaches. Take a look at the Hermantown thread and read about all of the places those kids come from. East is no better, they have had multiple kids move into the area, play hockey and leave right away. So your option is to transfer your kid into a shcool district that has kids running from it to the point that the other local schools are full and not accepting any more transfers in unless there are "special circumstnaces", go to a private school and pay thousands each year in tuition so that your kid can get onto a team that might not even be there next year, or tell the kid it was a fun run and we are going to take the money that we would have spent on trying to get you onto a team that you might get to play hockey on and buy a snowmobile and an ice fishing rig. Back in the day you could play hockey for fun. Now you can't. It costs too much time and treasure to just put your kid into a position so that they might have a chance to play hockey with their buddies in high school even without the whole transfer/recruiting stuff going on. I don't have kids in high school anymore. Don't have grand kids who are coming up who might or might not want to play hockey so I am pretty much an outsider looking in. I don't see high school hockey existing in it's current form in 10 years. I suspect that we will see MN go the way of the other states with Midgit teams, AAA teams and etc. DM is entering into the descion loop right now. There will be lots of schools following them into it.
=D>

elliott70
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Re: Future of Duluth Marshall

Post by elliott70 » Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:44 am

Schotzy wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:31 am
elliott70 wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:25 am
If a kid is playing for fun, Junior Gold should be an option.
Not available everywhere, but those areas that have larger numbers where most of these problems as described exist offer it or will offer it if asked.
I agree to a point. Jr. Gold is not for everyone. There is a reason they make the teams shake hands before the game rather at it's conclusion.
Its not as roughhouse as it once was.

Wet Paint
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Re: Future of Duluth Marshall

Post by Wet Paint » Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:27 am

Schotzy wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:31 am
elliott70 wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:25 am
If a kid is playing for fun, Junior Gold should be an option.
Not available everywhere, but those areas that have larger numbers where most of these problems as described exist offer it or will offer it if asked.
I agree to a point. Jr. Gold is not for everyone. There is a reason they make the teams shake hands before the game rather at it's conclusion.
And a JR Gold team is affliated with an association. You have to wonder how many of those associations are being pressued into not offering a JR Gold team by the high school. How many of those high school coaches are looking at the modest number of kids still in the system and saying that they don't want to have a local Jr Gold team that goes out and plays lots of games for fun. No pressure, just play and have fun. How many of those high school coaches are looking at those 3rd line kids who are backups, not going to get much ice time during a game, can be used to fill in during practices and are saying that they dont want that kid to have a choice, it is the high school or nothing. I suspect lots of high school coaches would rather turn out 10 kids or more per year than risk losing a couple of kids they want. Face it, if you had a bubble kid who might or might not make the team, who might or might not (and probably won't) get much ice time during the 16 game season if they do make the team, and who had the option for not much more money to go play JR Gold for fun, and for 50 games what would you do? What would your kid want to do? If it is true (and I firmly believe that it is) that kids want to play sports with and hangout and have fun with their buddies then you know the answer. That high school coach knows and is putting pressure on those associations to stop JR Gold from setting up. Who is on the association boards these days? The parents of kids who are either gonna make that high school team or who are bubble kids who are trying to make that team. Are they gonna run the risk of making that high school coach mad by supporting a JR Gold team and having their kid get cut with no other hockey option for him? Not a chance. Talk is cheap, we all do all of the sports stuff, the extra crap that comes with board stuff, putting up with the unhappy parents stuff and etc "for the children" until it looks like it might screw my kid up and then we take another route. It is that way in hockey, soccor, basketball, boy scouts, volleyball and etc. We donate to raffles, buy crap we don't need for fund raisers, mow outfields and chalk lines, and etc to support our kids so that they can have fun and not end up hanging out with the local druggies. Nobody is going to put all of that at risk to support a JR Gold team in an association against the wishes of the local high school. So, when you have the option of jumping into that mess or buying your kid a snowmobile and an ice fishing rig when the writing on the wall starts to be legible what are you gonna do? For the price of frustration, camps, teams, fund raising and etc I bet you can buy a pretty nice snowmobile and a great ice fishing rig. Might even get a cheap ice house for the kid so you can go out with him and not freeze your a$$ off sitting on a bucket. Those are the middle level bubble kids who would go to a program like DM in the hopes that they could continue to play hockey to have fun and still get a decent education. DM is done with hockey. They are in the end stages now. Lots of other schools will follow along in the years to come.

WarmUpTheBus
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Re: Future of Duluth Marshall

Post by WarmUpTheBus » Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:30 am

Is the enrollment in general of Marshall declining? Schools like Shattuck, St Thomas and Benilde figured out that hockey has become a rich persons' sport and by offering the center of excellence type of hockey program was a way to fill empty desks with tuition paying students from wealthy families. Maybe Marshall opting up to AA was their attempt to bolster flagging enrollment and it isn't working.

Duluth_Topper
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Re: Future of Duluth Marshall

Post by Duluth_Topper » Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:42 am

I agree with Schotzy as I am also a parent of a current Topper. Yes, there are probably a ton of stats about private vs. public. I am a graduate of one of the local high schools and back in the day though it was insane that someone would pay for high school. But what everyone needs to remember it is about the family and what they think. Do I think my kid would have done OK in his prior school - mostly likely yes. But first, off I am not a fan of standardizing testing. Next would be the large class sizes. Most of the public classes are over 30 kids where at Marshall most of the classes have 10-15 kids so they get more one on one time with the teachers. One of the things I always bring up is my son took Algebra 1 in 8th grade and when we came to Marshall all kids have to take a placement test to see where they want to put them. So he had to take Algebra 1 again in his freshman year. He was in a class with 11 kids and did very good so in his Sophomore year, he took Algebra 2 and Geometry at the same time.

We also never came to Marshall believing that we would be playing in the state tournament. But we did know that we would play a very aggressive AA schedule against teams like East, Minnetonka and St. Thomas Academy vs. playing teams like Ely and Moose Lake twice a year. And yes you look at the team 2 years ago with both Staubers and Grannis as Seniors and then even throw-in Krenzen that left 2 years early we lost a ton of top-end talent as well as skaters in general.

I also know first hand that Flaherty was starting to set up talks about Marshall going Tier 1 as he already saw the writing on the wall and with Marshall having dorms it could have housed students as potentially the Shattuck of the North.

Our family needed a change and could have just as easily transferred to Hermantown, East, or Cloquet but it was more than just hockey for us and there wouldn't have been any academic benefits for us to go to another public school. To this day we truly see first hand the benefits of the schooling at Marshall. But it will be interesting to see what happens to the program in the next couple of years as if you look at just the enrollment at Marshall and the class sizes they are trending way lower year after year and that also affects the number of hockey players.

elliott70
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Re: Future of Duluth Marshall

Post by elliott70 » Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:44 am

Well I can't speak to every coach but the ones that I know or have known in areas where they have or had junior gold teams the coaches supported and encouraged junior gold play.
Bemidji will have junior gold next year and the coach is very helpful in promoting it.

I am sure there are selfish coaches out there I just don't know them.

Wet Paint
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Re: Future of Duluth Marshall

Post by Wet Paint » Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:09 pm

elliott70 wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:44 am
Well I can't speak to every coach but the ones that I know or have known in areas where they have or had junior gold teams the coaches supported and encouraged junior gold play.
Bemidji will have junior gold next year and the coach is very helpful in promoting it.

I am sure there are selfish coaches out there I just don't know them.
I am sure there are coaches who support it. I am also sure that there are coaches who don't. All in all the point that I was trying to make is that back many years ago it was a different game. The lay of the land was different. It was not so expensive (I bet most kids played hockey for a year then for what one stick costs now, or close to it) and you could have fun. Multisport was normal, not the exception. Tough to blame those coaches that take the approach but you have to understand their point when they don't want jr gold because they can't afford to not have access to all of the kids coming up. I just think that programs like DM are probably not going to survive because the pipeline is drying up for lots of different reasons. Sad to see them go, but if you look back there are a lot of programs that have gone away. I think parents are finally getting tired of the whole deal and are starting to find other things to do with their kids and their money.

elliott70
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Re: Future of Duluth Marshall

Post by elliott70 » Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:15 pm

To lose Duluth (CATHEDRAL) Marshall would be a terrible loss.
I remember watching the Hoene brothers and others - they were a top team Minnesota for many years.
Of course, we lost Crookston Cathedral also, another great hockey school.
Last edited by elliott70 on Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

blueline_6
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Re: Future of Duluth Marshall

Post by blueline_6 » Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:01 pm

Schotzy wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:31 am
elliott70 wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:25 am
If a kid is playing for fun, Junior Gold should be an option.
Not available everywhere, but those areas that have larger numbers where most of these problems as described exist offer it or will offer it if asked.
I agree to a point. Jr. Gold is not for everyone. There is a reason they make the teams shake hands before the game rather at it's conclusion.
By my observation, J Gold A can be pretty high level hockey with players that are there to compete and play hockey. J Gold B games are a mixed bag.

kniven
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Re: Future of Duluth Marshall

Post by kniven » Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:06 pm

I’ve never been to a Jr. Gold hockey game. With so much boys and girls high school hockey to see, and high school hoops/youth hockey on off nights. Jr. Gold hockey seems like it’s asecret anyway. Like bootlegging or gambling in the roaring 20’s when I was young. Nobody ever knew where it was happening.
“218 hockey” Boys of the NOrth ❤️

blueblood
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Re: Future of Duluth Marshall

Post by blueblood » Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:28 pm

Kniven - if you were alive in the 20's that would have you older than elliott. :^o
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