Might be an ugly season...

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PuckNA
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:20 am

Might be an ugly season...

Post by PuckNA » Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:28 am

Watched over a half dozen games last weekend... officiating is all grossly over the place.

Issues I saw, any hit where a player was hit hard, and cleanly, was penalized, especially if the other team or crowd "ohhh and ahh". They would give a rough, elbow or interference. Most puck carriers hit were players skating with their head down. Some just bigger, stronger player standing after a collision.

Many 2 and 10's handed out. Any time a player didn't get up right away after a hit it was almost automatic it was a 2 and 10. Only 1 time did a player not return from the hit. Most didn't miss a shift while player was in box for 10.

Flow of games was gross, constant penalties and discussions about what to call. Ref's afraid to not call penalties, unsure of how to penalize, then being almost compelled to keep calling them.

If you watch most of the top players, they mostly play heads up hockey, they usually aren't "blown up". I see so many middle to bottom half guys are the ones getting hit hard, because they don't play heads up or can't process the game fast enough. Players are going to be just as confused about what is legal and what isn't as consistency is way off.

kniven
Posts: 2978
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Location: Duluth area

Re: Might be an ugly season...

Post by kniven » Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:53 am

PuckNA wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:28 am
Watched over a half dozen games last weekend... officiating is all grossly over the place.

Issues I saw, any hit where a player was hit hard, and cleanly, was penalized, especially if the other team or crowd "ohhh and ahh". They would give a rough, elbow or interference. Most puck carriers hit were players skating with their head down. Some just bigger, stronger player standing after a collision.

Many 2 and 10's handed out. Any time a player didn't get up right away after a hit it was almost automatic it was a 2 and 10. Only 1 time did a player not return from the hit. Most didn't miss a shift while player was in box for 10.

Flow of games was gross, constant penalties and discussions about what to call. Ref's afraid to not call penalties, unsure of how to penalize, then being almost compelled to keep calling them.

If you watch most of the top players, they mostly play heads up hockey, they usually aren't "blown up". I see so many middle to bottom half guys are the ones getting hit hard, because they don't play heads up or can't process the game fast enough. Players are going to be just as confused about is legal and what isn't as consistency is way off.
Agreed. Just another reason to go to more girls high school hockey games. They don’t leave early and skilled, and the games have much less Bull squat by the referees. I do as much girls high school puck as boys now the last couple years.
“218 hockey” Boys of the NOrth ❤️

InThePipes
Posts: 864
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:26 pm

Re: Might be an ugly season...

Post by InThePipes » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:08 am

PuckNA wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:28 am
Watched over a half dozen games last weekend... officiating is all grossly over the place.

Issues I saw, any hit where a player was hit hard, and cleanly, was penalized, especially if the other team or crowd "ohhh and ahh". They would give a rough, elbow or interference. Most puck carriers hit were players skating with their head down. Some just bigger, stronger player standing after a collision.

Many 2 and 10's handed out. Any time a player didn't get up right away after a hit it was almost automatic it was a 2 and 10. Only 1 time did a player not return from the hit. Most didn't miss a shift while player was in box for 10.

Flow of games was gross, constant penalties and discussions about what to call. Ref's afraid to not call penalties, unsure of how to penalize, then being almost compelled to keep calling them.

If you watch most of the top players, they mostly play heads up hockey, they usually aren't "blown up". I see so many middle to bottom half guys are the ones getting hit hard, because they don't play heads up or can't process the game fast enough. Players are going to be just as confused about what is legal and what isn't as consistency is way off.
What games were you watching?

PuckNA
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:20 am

Re: Might be an ugly season...

Post by PuckNA » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:32 am

USHL Showcase Games a lot of 15, 16 and 18 games

OldManRiver
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:31 pm

Re: Might be an ugly season...

Post by OldManRiver » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:18 pm

PuckNA wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:28 am
Issues I saw, any hit where a player was hit hard, and cleanly, was penalized, especially if the other team or crowd "ohhh and ahh". They would give a rough, elbow or interference. Most puck carriers hit were players skating with their head down. Some just bigger, stronger player standing after a collision.

Many 2 and 10's handed out. Any time a player didn't get up right away after a hit it was almost automatic it was a 2 and 10. Only 1 time did a player not return from the hit. Most didn't miss a shift while player was in box for 10.

Flow of games was gross, constant penalties and discussions about what to call. Ref's afraid to not call penalties, unsure of how to penalize, then being almost compelled to keep calling them.
I know this is a High School Board so this is all I will post about this on here, but we had the exact same experience at the Bantam level with our first four scrimmages of the season this weekend. From game to game (and sometimes period to period) you never knew what was going to be called because there is so much interpretation that the referee needs to do related to who is vulnerable, who is trying to play the puck, etc.

O-townClown
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Re: Might be an ugly season...

Post by O-townClown » Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:12 pm

PuckNA wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:28 am
Watched over a half dozen games last weekend... officiating is all grossly over the place.
What do Youth hockey games under USA Hockey oversight played in Nebraska have to do with MSHSL Varsity?
Be kind. Rewind.

PuckNA
Posts: 115
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Re: Might be an ugly season...

Post by PuckNA » Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:30 pm

So some of the refs there were also from MN... and guessing the refs dont only do HS games but youth as well. So.. you should be able to extrapolate from there.. even the Jr. coaches and scouts said they are seeing the same issues in and out of MN and at all levels... also... title was... MIGHT be an ugly season....

O-townClown
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Re: Might be an ugly season...

Post by O-townClown » Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:04 pm

PuckNA wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:30 pm
. MIGHT be an ugly season....
Might not.

USA Hockey has some points of emphasis this season. Citing 2 & 10, which is in their Rule Book, is meaningless for Minnesota Varsity. Completely different Rule Book.

Yes, some officials work many different levels. USA Hockey Youth, USA Hockey Junior, National High School Federation, NCAA, minor pro (like ECHL), international. Thing is, these guys know the rules for whatever they are assigned.

Dodge County might go undefeated. There's no limit to possible threads. Can't wait for actual games to begin.
Be kind. Rewind.

O-townClown
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Re: Might be an ugly season...

Post by O-townClown » Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:07 pm

BIG point of emphasis this season!

https://www.nfhs.org/articles/ice-hocke ... s-2019-20/

Mouthguard use. :roll:
Be kind. Rewind.

That guy for that thing
Posts: 224
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Re: Might be an ugly season...

Post by That guy for that thing » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:54 am

I think this issue has been mounting for a while. Every year we see how upset people get about big hits coming down at state when the northern teams roll in, and how it affects the play. As the game gets faster and quicker, and there is more of a drive towards reducing injury, the fine line of how to play this gets finer.
I think that the same hit should be called differently depending on the type of game, its a judgment call by the refs. If it's a clean game that is tight scoring, and contact has been happening all game, let a bigger hit go, but if it's chippy, and starting to get towards fighting and whatnot, you gotta call it. Open ice hits should rarely be 2-10 unless there is severe charging (injury) or head contact. Hits along the boards are a bit more difficult but unless it's throwing the kid into the boards, the same rules apply as open ice.
Big hits are great, as long as arms are in, and no additional movement is made to drive the kid into the ice or target the head. How many elbows are called because a 6'4" kid hits a 5'2" kid? The tall kid can do nothing with his elbows but keep them in, and even then it's already at the head level of the kid getting hit. Injuries would drop drastically if kids stopped trying to avoid getting hit. When you jump or turn, you put yourself in a very dangerous position and very rarely can the hitter change direction quick enough to avoid the contact.
Refs have to understand that you cant give out 10's just because the kid slowly gets off the ice, or if he has his head down. Yes, a head down is a dangerous position, but kids can use that similar to spins along the boards, just drop their head at the last second, and it becomes an unexpected hit.

yesiplayedhockey
Posts: 275
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Re: Might be an ugly season...

Post by yesiplayedhockey » Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:15 am

I've said it before..Nowadays parents/kids are so wrapped up in Skill they forget that if you can't compete you probably won't last long at the next level. The problem is refs, (ie MN Hockey/USA Hockey), is slowly taking the physical side of this sport out of the game. I see way to many whistles when kids are simply "competing" . I see way to many penalties called just because that cute little 5'7", toe dragging, non passing, head down skill player got rocked.

Below is a recent quote from the New York Rangers head coach about his frustrations.

“I think part of being a professional athlete is handling adversity and understanding that consistent battle level gives you a chance to have success and I just think we have guys who don’t fully understand that. They think the game should be played a different way..it should be a skill game, skill is certainly a huge component of this game but, if you have no battle in you, not matter how skilled you are, you’re not going to be productive.
This game is all about what can you do when someone’s trying to stop you from doing it. I don’t care what you can do in the driveway, I don’t care what you can do in practice, I don’t care how pretty all these plays you can make, you’re gonna be able to make a play when someone’s trying to stop you from doing it…and in turn, you better stop someone else from making the play.”

PuckNA
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:20 am

Re: Might be an ugly season...

Post by PuckNA » Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:20 am

yesiplayedhockey wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:15 am
I've said it before..Nowadays parents/kids are so wrapped up in Skill they forget that if you can't compete you probably won't last long at the next level. The problem is refs, (ie MN Hockey/USA Hockey), is slowly taking the physical side of this sport out of the game. I see way to many whistles when kids are simply "competing" . I see way to many penalties called just because that cute little 5'7", toe dragging, non passing, head down skill player got rocked.

Below is a recent quote from the New York Rangers head coach about his frustrations.

“I think part of being a professional athlete is handling adversity and understanding that consistent battle level gives you a chance to have success and I just think we have guys who don’t fully understand that. They think the game should be played a different way..it should be a skill game, skill is certainly a huge component of this game but, if you have no battle in you, not matter how skilled you are, you’re not going to be productive.
This game is all about what can you do when someone’s trying to stop you from doing it. I don’t care what you can do in the driveway, I don’t care what you can do in practice, I don’t care how pretty all these plays you can make, you’re gonna be able to make a play when someone’s trying to stop you from doing it…and in turn, you better stop someone else from making the play.”
Exactly !!!

Slap Shot
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Re: Might be an ugly season...

Post by Slap Shot » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:36 am

That guy for that thing wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:54 am
I think this issue has been mounting for a while. Every year we see how upset people get about big hits coming down at state when the northern teams roll in...
Huh.

elliott70
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Location: Bemidji

Re: Might be an ugly season...

Post by elliott70 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:38 am

Slap Shot wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:36 am
That guy for that thing wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:54 am
I think this issue has been mounting for a while. Every year we see how upset people get about big hits coming down at state when the northern teams roll in...
Huh.
Double 'huh'!

GoldenBear
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:38 am

Re: Might be an ugly season...

Post by GoldenBear » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:46 am




Slap Shot wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:36 am



That guy for that thing wrote: ↑
Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:54 am
I think this issue has been mounting for a while. Every year we see how upset people get about big hits coming down at state when the northern teams roll in... Huh. Double 'huh'!
Triple Huh???

goldy313
Posts: 3747
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 11:56 am

Re: Might be an ugly season...

Post by goldy313 » Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:23 am

The problem is the refs?

Dumbest statement in a long while on here.

Go officiate then.

People in glass houses and all that.....

yesiplayedhockey
Posts: 275
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:33 am

Re: Might be an ugly season...

Post by yesiplayedhockey » Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:50 am

Lets see....Gophers Notre Dame game last March Mr. Goldy?

Great call on Sheehy then I assume? or a "dumbass" call....

WBLPuck99
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Re: Might be an ugly season...

Post by WBLPuck99 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:21 pm

yesiplayedhockey wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:50 am
Lets see....Gophers Notre Dame game last March Mr. Goldy?

Great call on Sheehy then I assume? or a "dumbass" call....
I think his point is fair though. We sit here complaining about officiating, but the MSHSL can barely get enough refs out to do games. You can't expect someone to want to ref when they know they are signing up for a JV/Varsity game of parents yelling obscenities at them.

I agree they can be bad at times, but when you're scraping the barrel for refs, you're not going to get a consistent top tier group.

Didn't they have to move games around last year to weird nights just to have enough officials?

yesiplayedhockey
Posts: 275
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:33 am

Re: Might be an ugly season...

Post by yesiplayedhockey » Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:42 pm

I think you may be confusing what I am trying to say (and that may be my fault)

I'm not saying the reffing is BAD...I'm say they (whoever they may be...Districts, MN Hockey, USA Hockey) are most likely asking the refs to call the game a little tighter...What use to be a good solid, body on body check is now sometimes a penalty......I get it no one wants to see a kid get hurt but on the flip side you can't take away that side of the game. It's needed at the next level and the next level and the next level

The originator of this post (NA) made a comment he's seeing more stuff like this...I simply agreed with him. I watch probably 100+ Bantam and HS level games a year and see kids make a great play (A solid body check with his elbows down and his stick on the ice) only to be sent to the penalty box

The shortage of refs is real....They are probably way underpaid and maybe even a bit under trained....Heck it's hard enough to get a neighbor kid to mow the lawn for $50 today so I'm sure finding people to ref is quite the battle

Another great topic for Elliott to maybe bring up at the next meetings...Can MN Hockey/USA hockey set aside funds to be used to help supplement the costs of hiring, paying and training refs? Or should it simple fall on the hands of the parents/associations and the MSHSL ? What is being done to address the shortage either we are seeing today or will be seeing in the near future ?

elliott70
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Location: Bemidji

Re: Might be an ugly season...

Post by elliott70 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:06 pm

I asked for funds at the September meeting .....
I got a bit of a run around....
Bottom line maybe

goldy313
Posts: 3747
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2002 11:56 am

Re: Might be an ugly season...

Post by goldy313 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:21 pm

I misunderstood your post, I apologize.

My take as a high school ref...... the governing bodies talk out of both sides of their mouths. Their support for officials is not a priority.

As an example they make rules for safety (targeting in football) but then tell you, explicitly, not to call them. What is an official to do? There is a disconnect between the governing bodies, their rules, and how to call them. And in many places a disconnect between behavior of coaches, players, and fans. The lower the level the worse it gets. I will throw far more unsportsmanlike fouls at youth coaches than high school coaches. Yet the support at the youth level for officials is far less. Why would any new official want to come back when the local hockey board disrespects them as much as they do? That is a huge reason retention is so poor among new officials. That said there are officials with a “God” complex, but most are just trying to give back.

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