The Hermantown Thread

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northwoods oldtimer
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by northwoods oldtimer » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:55 am

rainier2 wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:54 pm
Crap, I tried to copy the last post from the 7A thread here, but it didn't quite format the way I'd hoped. #-o

Anyway, in response to the Hayward poster: I don't think anyone has a problem with you (or whoever) moving to Hermantown. It's a free country. But, why didn't this family choose Cloquet, or East, or Superior? All very good programs, and just as close, if not closer. Could it be they chose Hermantown because it's an almost guaranteed trip to state? Could it be Hermantown players get to play 99% of their hockey careers vs AA teams, then step down to A teams once HS playoffs start, thereby getting the tough competition and the social media accolades?

The problem is Hermantown being a suburb of the Duluth metro area, and thus drawing in a huge chunk of talent from there and other 7A places. They benefit from being in a AA-sized area, yet don't have to go up to AA because their own school is A-sized. It's the same loophole that the private schools used to employ when they were beating Hermantown in the A title games, and Hermantown fans were livid about it. Why is it okay for them to do what they used to rail against?

Hermantown belongs in AA, and until they move up, the huge amount of transfers and open enrollees will be an ongoing discussion topic.
That there is the most hilarious part of the Hermantown single A debacle. That coach whined like a little school girl when private schools were whipping up on his recruited elites. St. Thomas ought to move back down to single A and plow through that team on an annual basis, same for Benilde.
:lol:
Oh and if you did't know it's pick on Hermantown day. :lol:

kniven
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by kniven » Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:18 pm

its obvious to all what Hermantown is. It’s a tired subject. Fun, but tired.
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zooomx
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by zooomx » Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:12 am

We could just start a new A.5 league and toss Hermantown, SCC and other privates/public success stories in there. I was thinking of this the other day and I don't necessarily feel that Hermantown is the problem. They are the symptom of the problem. The problem (in my opinion) is that summer (and now spring/fall) hockey has really taken off the past 10 years or so. Parents and players have the option of finding an off season team of "all stars". Then they come home for the winter youth season and they are "stuck" playing with sub par teammates. The grass has always been greener on the other side of the fence, but now families get to go play on the other side of the fence for 6-7 months a year. Yes, Hermantown looks bad for complaining for years about the privates, then not doing the right thing when they are the big bad boy on the block.

In terms of classes, I think the landscape has changed enough that we do need to go to 3 classes. AAA - biggest 48 school districts with the few privates with big enough stones to opt up. AA - privates + smaller current AA schools and larger current A schools (Alex, EGF, Hermantown, Monticello etc).
A - everyone else (but no privates allowed). I personally don't want to see the current A level watered down by moving the stronger teams up. Creating a 3rd class would create a fun tournament for the smaller public schools like Virginia, Little Falls, Greenway, Eveleth, North Branch and other out state smaller schools. I think in many ways we are complaining about the symptom of the problem and not solving the problem itself. Off season hockey is here to stay, so we need to adjust our hockey class system to accommodate. Maybe altering the classes in this way will slightly reduce player movement. Maybe it won't, but at least it would create a situation in which a decent Class A like Eveleth has a chance to advance in sections versus the annual beat down they potentially face in Hermantown.

greenwayraider
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by greenwayraider » Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:48 am

This is probably the most insightful post on where high school hockey should go I’ve seen. Your proposed three class system is right on target. What we are seeing in Class A now is similar to AA as far as the same schools making state. Mahtomedi, Hermantown, Orono will be dominant based on their Youth success and the Cathedral/Alex duo. The other sections don’t compete that well at state. Section 8 gives some variety with three schools (EGF, Warroad, Thief River). This just seems to be the nature of hockey. Greenway will not be competitive with good teams after this year for a long time. The only problem with your proposal is that it makes too much sense so the MSHSL won’t think of it.

MrBoDangles
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by MrBoDangles » Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:37 am

Unfair to say they recruit when it’s obvious talent ends up there for the 95% chance of going to the tournament. The problem comes in with playing the best in youth hockey and then dropping back in high school to guarantee the ticket.

I really do like the program, but it’s way past due to make the move.

It has to be tough for some in the program to take the deserved ridicule.....

Yoopskater
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Yoopskater » Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:21 pm

Lots of whining, but not seeing it emanating from Hermantown...

rainier2
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by rainier2 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:37 pm

Yoopskater wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:21 pm
Lots of whining, but not seeing it emanating from Hermantown...
Why would they whine? Life is good in the little 'ol hockey hamlet of Hermantown. To wit,

1) STA and BSM went to AA, and Breck no longer focuses on hockey.
2) They supercharge their talent pool with transfers and open enrollees from the Duluth metro and other areas-yet get to stay in A
3) They get to play AA competition almost exclusively from Squirts through HS regular season, then get to step down to Class A for HS playoffs.

What's not to love? It's a perfect system.

Pertyboy
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Pertyboy » Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:23 pm

On
Last edited by Pertyboy on Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

zooomx
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by zooomx » Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:16 pm

Pertyboy wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:23 pm
Once again you have a problem. Hermantown only has 650 kids enrolled. You cannot go by enrollment
Virginia, Hibbing snd the likes have almost double Hermantowns enrollment.making it 3 classes solves nothing
Ummm... yeah there would be no way Hermantown or similar programs would be willing to stay in the bottom class in a 3 class system.

kniven
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by kniven » Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:17 pm

Pertyboy wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:23 pm
Once again you have a problem. Hermantown only has 650 kids enrolled. You cannot go by enrollment
Virginia, Hibbing snd the likes have almost double Hermantowns enrollment.making it 3 classes solves nothing
The enrollment excuse is so adorable.
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rainier2
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by rainier2 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:42 pm

zooomx wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:16 pm
Pertyboy wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:23 pm
Once again you have a problem. Hermantown only has 650 kids enrolled. You cannot go by enrollment
Virginia, Hibbing snd the likes have almost double Hermantowns enrollment.making it 3 classes solves nothing
Ummm... yeah there would be no way Hermantown or similar programs would be willing to stay in the bottom class in a 3 class system.
That's a hefty assumption. Hermantown routinely beats/plays tight with the AA champ every year and they don't move up, so why would they ever move up in any situation? Winning state would just become easier, which is what the Hawks' powers-that-be are interested in. They can still play an all AA (or AAA) schedule from squirts through HS playoffs, then stack trophies vs rural teams.

I hope the Hermantown AD doesn't get wind of this 3rd class idea, she'll be the first one in line to sign up! :oops:

greenwayraider
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by greenwayraider » Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:59 pm

Pertyboy wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:23 pm
Once again you have a problem. Hermantown only has 650 kids enrolled. You cannot go by enrollment
Virginia, Hibbing snd the likes have almost double Hermantowns enrollment.making it 3 classes solves nothing
If you want to be taken seriously you better research you information more thoroughly. Hibbing has an enrollment of 583 and Virginia’s is 423. According to my math those numbers are not double Hermantown’s enrollment of 650.

Pertyboy
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Pertyboy » Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:15 pm

O
Last edited by Pertyboy on Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

zooomx
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by zooomx » Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:29 pm

Pertyboy wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:15 pm
I am not defending Hermantown or any other school, the point is if you use enrollment to oust Hermantown you achieve nothing, they have similar numbers to the other schools. If you want them out so you dont have to compete against them then rank the teams and go back to tier 2 hockey.Or the other option...find a way for kids to stay at their own program
Yeah, Tier 2 hockey worked out so well last time. :roll:

The Tier 3 system would make sense as there really are 3 classes of teams in Minnesota. It's really a no brainer in terms of competitive balance. You have the very large AA schools that have decent demographics to go along with their enrollment numbers that would be in AAA. Other stronger teams and privates could opt up ala Roseau and St. Thomas Academy. The smaller AA schools or those with crappy demographics could play AA along with strong or larger A schools and the rest of the privates. Class A would be the Virginias, Eveleth, Fergus, Willmar, etc. There would be more competitive balance in each class. Teams like Hermantown, EGF, Alexandria, Mahtomedi, etc would all play AA either because of size or because the are strong enough to compete.

Right now you look at the top 10 teams and the bottom 20 teams in each of the current 2 class system and there is just too big of a disparity.

I am sure a 3 class system has been brought up with the MSHSL. It is being shot down for probably 2 reasons: 1) Money - would the cost of having 3 classes reduce the amount of money they make on the current system to such a degree that it is unpalatable. 2) Would it create a nightmare for scheduling state tourneys?? Would you have to hold the Class A tournament somewhere other than the X, and would they take a lot of crap from smaller schools for doing so.

Of course, eventually someone would do very well at the top of the new AA an A classes and everyone would bitch about them on a new thread.

zooomx
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by zooomx » Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:31 pm

rainier2 wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:42 pm
zooomx wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:16 pm
Pertyboy wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:23 pm
Once again you have a problem. Hermantown only has 650 kids enrolled. You cannot go by enrollment
Virginia, Hibbing snd the likes have almost double Hermantowns enrollment.making it 3 classes solves nothing
Ummm... yeah there would be no way Hermantown or similar programs would be willing to stay in the bottom class in a 3 class system.
That's a hefty assumption. Hermantown routinely beats/plays tight with the AA champ every year and they don't move up, so why would they ever move up in any situation? Winning state would just become easier, which is what the Hawks' powers-that-be are interested in. They can still play an all AA (or AAA) schedule from squirts through HS playoffs, then stack trophies vs rural teams.

I hope the Hermantown AD doesn't get wind of this 3rd class idea, she'll be the first one in line to sign up! :oops:
I don't think its a hefty assumption at all. They are getting some good competition at the A level the past few years. Unfortunately, it is only 6-7 teams each year that have a shot at knocking them off. If they were in the lowest of 3 classes, they would have zero competition.

Section 8 guy
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Section 8 guy » Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:03 pm

It’s a real stretch to say the 3 classes idea is a no brainer for any reason. I’d suspect that that version probably works well for you in your corner of the world......but as you say.....the same problems you are trying to solve would still exist, just in a different spot in the food chain. Plus it creates new ones.....like further watering down the overall product.

There is always going to be teams at the bottom, no matter how many classes you make. It’s far easier, and better, to try to come up with ways to deal with the problems you currently face. An extreme relegation system that would require Hermantown to move up would be better, as one example.

rainier2
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by rainier2 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:28 pm

Section 8 guy wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:03 pm
It’s a real stretch to say the 3 classes idea is a no brainer for any reason. I’d suspect that that version probably works well for you in your corner of the world......but as you say.....the same problems you are trying to solve would still exist, just in a different spot in the food chain. Plus it creates new ones.....like further watering down the overall product.

There is always going to be teams at the bottom, no matter how many classes you make. It’s far easier, and better, to try to come up with ways to deal with the problems you currently face. An extreme relegation system that would require Hermantown to move up would be better, as one example.
Agreed, a 3 class system doesn't make sense. The idea i've always liked is you draw a circle around a school with a ten mile radius, and if there are enough total students within that circle to reach the AA cutoff, then you play AA. Hermantown, Cathedral, and just about every metro A team would move up to AA. Teams could petition to move back down, but once they win an A title, then they are automatically bumped up to AA. This way, "small" schools that are in metro areas can't benefit from the nearby AA-sized talent pool without having to face AA teams in the playoffs.

defense
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by defense » Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:27 am

Still having this discussion? Hermantown is playing by the rules. Why hate? Just beat them
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BodyShots
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by BodyShots » Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:59 pm

Easy answer is......

A teams can only play A teams
AA teams can only play AA teams

Herm will move up if they can only play weak teams throughout the year. Why would any good player want to play there?

kniven
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by kniven » Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:54 pm

defense wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:27 am
Still having this discussion? Hermantown is playing by the rules. Why hate? Just beat them

Agreed. Hermantown is playing by the rules. Fans statewide, generally speaking, can’t stand that program. I have witnessed several times over the years. Fans throughout the state can’t stand that program. Instead of respect, that program is laughed at/mocked. Yes, they win all the time.”you are your own worst enemy”. Hermantown hockey program is their own worst enemy. Compete in AA playoffs in youth hockey (small enrollment) moved down to A playoffs in high school (small enrollment). Perception is everything. And Hermantown hockey’s perception is very small. But you are winning and a feeder program to UMD hockey. Priorities. What’s important. Winning and Div1 players. I’ve got to admit. A great system. The best of everything except for perception. If a program like Hermantown went to AA. They would still win. They would still be pipeline/feeder to UMD. Their perception would be good. Competing with Grand Rapids and Duluth East in the section playoffs would be difficult.

I once new a guy who’s perception with others was that he was a prick. But. He was rich. He won because he had more money than all the locals in the small town they lived in. He employed many people who couldn’t stand him. But he gave them jobs. They put up with it, the locals, because he gave them jobs. The other towns and bigger cities in the area couldn’t stand him either, but they had jobs. So they didn’t have to toe that line. People who didn’t have jobs would move to his small town on the promise he would employ them. Others would lose there job to the new person in town. But the other locals weren’t concerned. They didn’t want to lose their jobs. His company received many awards. But only the people who had jobs were happy. It’s all about jobs. He had no concern for people he didn’t employ. Why should he. Being liked, respected, and appreciated by people not employed by him was never a concern. He did things his way. If you don’t like it than leave. Nobody ever left unless they were let go for someone he liked better moving into town.

People often told him to move his operation to a city. And do what you do for a city and make things better for more people. He said no. And people new in the town and outside the town that he loved the control he had in his town. He would never give that up just because others though so. He lived his life out beloved by the people he employed in his town. Everyone else was no concern to him. For he knew a person should only focus on what you can control and not on concerns, especially concerns of others.
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Goose21
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Goose21 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:28 pm

kniven wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:54 pm
defense wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:27 am
Still having this discussion? Hermantown is playing by the rules. Why hate? Just beat them

Agreed. Hermantown is playing by the rules. Fans statewide, generally speaking, can’t stand that program. I have witnessed several times over the years. Fans throughout the state can’t stand that program. Instead of respect, that program is laughed at/mocked. Yes, they win all the time.”you are your own worst enemy”. Hermantown hockey program is their own worst enemy. Compete in AA playoffs in youth hockey (small enrollment) moved down to A playoffs in high school (small enrollment). Perception is everything. And Hermantown hockey’s perception is very small. But you are winning and a feeder program to UMD hockey. Priorities. What’s important. Winning and Div1 players. I’ve got to admit. A great system. The best of everything except for perception. If a program like Hermantown went to AA. They would still win. They would still be pipeline/feeder to UMD. Their perception would be good. Competing with Grand Rapids and Duluth East in the section playoffs would be difficult.

I once new a guy who’s perception with others was that he was a prick. But. He was rich. He won because he had more money than all the locals in the small town they lived in. He employed many people who couldn’t stand him. But he gave them jobs. They put up with it, the locals, because he gave them jobs. The other towns and bigger cities in the area couldn’t stand him either, but they had jobs. So they didn’t have to toe that line. People who didn’t have jobs would move to his small town on the promise he would employ them. Others would lose there job to the new person in town. But the other locals weren’t concerned. They didn’t want to lose their jobs. His company received many awards. But only the people who had jobs were happy. It’s all about jobs. He had no concern for people he didn’t employ. Why should he. Being liked, respected, and appreciated by people not employed by him was never a concern. He did things his way. If you don’t like it than leave. Nobody ever left unless they were let go for someone he liked better moving into town.

People often told him to move his operation to a city. And do what you do for a city and make things better for more people. He said no. And people new in the town and outside the town that he loved the control he had in his town. He would never give that up just because others though so. He lived his life out beloved by the people he employed in his town. Everyone else was no concern to him. For he knew a person should only focus on what you can control and not on concerns, especially concerns of others.
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elliott70
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by elliott70 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:45 pm

kniven wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:54 pm


Agreed. Hermantown is playing by the rules.

Fans statewide, generally speaking, can’t stand that program. ***

Yes, they win all the time. ****

Compete in AA playoffs in youth hockey (small enrollment) moved down to A playoffs in high school (small enrollment)*****
***
I know and talk to a lot of hockey people across the state - most have no opinion - worry about what is happening in t heir own backyard.

****
Really?
2019 did not qualify for state
2018 lost in state semis.
2016 & 2017 state champs
yes, competitive all the time but now winning all the time

***** one has nothing to do with the other - some teams opt to play AA at youth some opt to play single A at youth.

rainier2
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by rainier2 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:17 pm

defense wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:27 am
Still having this discussion? Hermantown is playing by the rules. Why hate? Just beat them
Why hate? Here's a few reasons:

A program that plays AA from squirts through HS regular season, beats/plays tight with the AA champ every year, and has arena rafters that sag under the weight of single A banners, yet it's still not enough to move up. Greed

A program whose coach and fans complained loudly about metro privates drawing top talent from AA-sized areas yet having enrollments small enough to qualify for A, yet now they are doing the exact same thing themselves. Hypocrisy

A program whose exploitation of the rules has distorted reality for expectations of Class A teams, hence we see clueless statements like "just beat them". TRF, Luverne, I-Falls, LF, Eveleth, etc., don't have the 200,000 people just a relative short drive away so they can re-stock with all-stars every year. What type of A team can "just beat them"? Greenway needed to add three late transfers to their best team in twenty years to do it, SCC needed to draw all the top talent from a metro area of 150,000, EGF needed to be a suburb of an area of 100,000 to do it, and Alexandria needed to be on the cusp of AA enrollment and face hands-down the worst Hermantown team in years to do it. Fueling the erosion of community loyalty and hockey in small towns

Lou Nanne, Mike McGraw, Mark Parrish, Scott Pionk, and even Hermantown's current head coach didn't believe the answer was "just beat them". They said "Hermantown should be in AA." Decision makers at Hermantown remain unmoved. Tone deaf

Farting in a full elevator, making fun of the handicapped behind their backs, and handing out apples for Halloween aren't against the rules either. But does that mean you should you do them? :D

kniven
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by kniven » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:51 pm

rainier2 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:17 pm
defense wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:27 am
Still having this discussion? Hermantown is playing by the rules. Why hate? Just beat them
Why hate? Here's a few reasons:

A program that plays AA from squirts through HS regular season, beats/plays tight with the AA champ every year, and has arena rafters that sag under the weight of single A banners, yet it's still not enough to move up. Greed

A program whose coach and fans complained loudly about metro privates drawing top talent from AA-sized areas yet having enrollments small enough to qualify for A, yet now they are doing the exact same thing themselves. Hypocrisy

A program whose exploitation of the rules has distorted reality for expectations of Class A teams, hence we see clueless statements like "just beat them". TRF, Luverne, I-Falls, LF, Eveleth, etc., don't have the 200,000 people just a relative short drive away so they can re-stock with all-stars every year. What type of A team can "just beat them"? Greenway needed to add three late transfers to their best team in twenty years to do it, SCC needed to draw all the top talent from a metro area of 150,000, EGF needed to be a suburb of an area of 100,000 to do it, and Alexandria needed to be on the cusp of AA enrollment and face hands-down the worst Hermantown team in years to do it. Fueling the erosion of community loyalty and hockey in small towns

Lou Nanne, Mike McGraw, Mark Parrish, Scott Pionk, and even Hermantown's current head coach didn't believe the answer was "just beat them". They said "Hermantown should be in AA." Decision makers at Hermantown remain unmoved. Tone deaf

Farting in a full elevator, making fun of the handicapped behind their backs, and handing out apples for Halloween aren't against the rules either. But does that mean you should you do them? :D
That was poetic and well said 👍
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hockey59
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by hockey59 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:31 pm

rainier2 wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:17 pm
defense wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:27 am
Still having this discussion? Hermantown is playing by the rules. Why hate? Just beat them
Why hate? Here's a few reasons:

A program that plays AA from squirts through HS regular season, beats/plays tight with the AA champ every year, and has arena rafters that sag under the weight of single A banners, yet it's still not enough to move up. Greed

A program whose coach and fans complained loudly about metro privates drawing top talent from AA-sized areas yet having enrollments small enough to qualify for A, yet now they are doing the exact same thing themselves. Hypocrisy

A program whose exploitation of the rules has distorted reality for expectations of Class A teams, hence we see clueless statements like "just beat them". TRF, Luverne, I-Falls, LF, Eveleth, etc., don't have the 200,000 people just a relative short drive away so they can re-stock with all-stars every year. What type of A team can "just beat them"? Greenway needed to add three late transfers to their best team in twenty years to do it, SCC needed to draw all the top talent from a metro area of 150,000, EGF needed to be a suburb of an area of 100,000 to do it, and Alexandria needed to be on the cusp of AA enrollment and face hands-down the worst Hermantown team in years to do it. Fueling the erosion of community loyalty and hockey in small towns

Lou Nanne, Mike McGraw, Mark Parrish, Scott Pionk, and even Hermantown's current head coach didn't believe the answer was "just beat them". They said "Hermantown should be in AA." Decision makers at Hermantown remain unmoved. Tone deaf

Farting in a full elevator, making fun of the handicapped behind their backs, and handing out apples for Halloween aren't against the rules either. But does that mean you should you do them? :D
Well stated, all TRUE. The administration that allows this total sham to continue, two years after two years, is a absolute JOKE...and anybody who knows anything about MN youth & HS hockey...knows it’s a JOKE. :idea: #-o

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