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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:02 am
by Jeffy95
O-townClown wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:29 pm
Dude, there is no good Class A team in SW suburbs. Grab a map. SW Christian Academy? Yeah. Have them play Chaska. That exciting Providence-Wayzata matchup? What are you wrangling for, Kennedy-Edina?

Mahtomedi is in no way, shape, or form a rival of any team is the SW suburbs.

Don’t hurt yourself craning your neck.
I’m just trying to figure out why you have such a strong opinion about East traveling across the State to play non-rival AA teams instead of playing a top Class A team in their area. Yet you don’t seem to have an opinion about the Metro AA teams doing the exact same thing. Why does EP schedule Brainerd, Cloquet and East when they could get such a great game locally with the Class A champs? Do they have a long-standing Rivalry with Brainerd that I haven’t heard about?

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:24 am
by O-townClown
Not hard to figure out. East & Hermantown have been consistently top teams and are about 10 miles apart. It would be a competitive game.

What's strange is the great lengths people go to trying to justify why they don't play.

Name another natural geographic rivalry that doesn't happen. Roseau plays Warroad, Maple Grove meets Wayzata, Edina plays Eden Prairie and Minnetonka. Hill-Murray plays St. Thomas. Mahtomedi plays Stillwater. Grand Rapids plays Greenway. Lakeville South throws down with North.

About the only one I can think of that doesn't happen regularly is Mahtomedi-White Bear Lake.

Doesn't matter to me whether they play or not. I feel bad for the kids. What I will do is call out idiocy. A teams can't play AA teams? C'mon.

Randolph won't play them to make them move up to AA. Geez, commend the patience.

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:28 am
by O-townClown
Jeffy95 wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:02 am
Why does EP schedule Brainerd, Cloquet and East when they could get such a great game locally with the Class A champs?
E.P.'s schedule the past few seasons has included 8 of the past 15 Class A champions. How far behind do you need to be before you'll quit?

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:13 am
by Wise Old Man
O-townClown wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:28 am
Jeffy95 wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:02 am
Why does EP schedule Brainerd, Cloquet and East when they could get such a great game locally with the Class A champs?
E.P.'s schedule the past few seasons has included 8 of the past 15 Class A champions. How far behind do you need to be before you'll quit?

Couple of points. First, to Lee from his post from the previous page and his point regarding what happens if an "A" team has a "AA" team in their conference? I've stated this previously and I will state it again; there's a simple way for the MSHSL to solve the "Hermantown problem". Create a rule that states that Class "A" teams are not allowed to play "AA" teams with the following exceptions; 1.) if there is/are "AA" teams in your conference, you may play each team once per season 2.) You may play a "AA" team(s) as part of a "holiday tournament. Trust me, if Hermantown was only allowed to play Cloquet and, starting this season, Grand Rapids, along with one or two "AA" teams in a holiday tourney, they would be in "AA" at the next opportunity to opt up.

Next, I agree that as long as the rules allow "A" teams to play "AA" teams and, since Hermantown became a legitimately high-level "A" team, East should absolutely have been playing them. East should've also been playing Duluth Marshall once they became a high-level "A" team as well. The Duluth area has missed out on at least two very high quality games per year and maybe four for more than a decade. Games that would've created added, significant media buzz, not just locally but across the state as well. Not to mention the incredible revenue generator those games would've been. I'm quite confident that they could've played many of those games at the DECC or Amsoil once it opened and easily have had 4,000 plus in attendance.

Finally, to O-town, you state that East should be playing Hermantown because they are a geographic rival. Ok, we agree. However, Jeffy's point is that the SW suburban "AA" schools don't seem interested in driving 30 minutes to play Mahtomedi, yet, will drive two plus hours a couple times a year to play other "AA" schools who, depending on the season, often aren't nearly as strong as Mahtomedi has been the last three years. Within the realm of the geography of the Twin Cities' metro, how is a team within a 30 minute drive not a "geographic rival"? Please clear this up for me as I'm fairly certain that the vast majority of people would actually agree that a team within a 30 minute drive (in the metro or not) would/could constitute a geographic rival. :shock:

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:50 am
by O-townClown
Good heavens the absurdity is relentless.

1. Mahtomedi has had a few nice teams but is far from a storied program. The revisionist history you apply is ludicrous. They won state. Once. This season. Did you or anyone else know it was coming? No. Don’t pretend otherwise.

2. Edina High is 31 miles from Mahtomedi. Eden Prairie & Minnetonka more. That’s not a 30 minute drive no way, no how. Hardly relevant, but call it the hour it is on a Tuesday or Thursday through rush hour if the proximity matters to you.

3. Lake Conference teams play the toughest schedules every season. Why dilute things by adding Mahtomedi?

4. You COMPLETELY choose to bring up several nonsensical smokescreens while ignoring the obvious point: H’town & D East are close to each other. If I drive the whatever ten miles how many schools with decent hockey programs will I pass? Eden Prairie can more easily play Minnetonka, Chaska, Edina, Blake, Benilde, Wayzata, Maple Grove, St. Thomas, Blaine, and a few others before they get 15 miles from Mahtomedi.

Realistically the window had closed for an interesting game between these two. Would have been pretty cool for them to play the past decade. What’s weird is the Class A team projects to be the stronger team for a while. Making it even more surprising the leadership of the hockey program aren’t curious about winning a Class AA title the way Blake was on the Girls side.

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:55 am
by O-townClown
Since 2008 Edina & Eden Prairie have played in the championship game 5 times each. Since the schools are in proximity, it would be strange if their hockey teams refused to play each other.

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:35 am
by Jeffy95
O-townClown wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:55 am
Since 2008 Edina & Eden Prairie have played in the championship game 5 times each. Since the schools are in proximity, it would be strange if their hockey teams refused to play each other.
Of course it would. They are in the same class, same conference. It would be strange if East didn’t play Cloquet and Rapids also. Same class, same section. Big Playoff implications. Two great Rivalries. They have none of that with Hermantown. All of this hubbub over a scrimmage? Just like the Lake Schools have none of that with Mahtomedi, the Perennial top A Team in the Metro. Heck, White Bear Lake and Woodbury won’t even schedule Mahtomedi and they’re right in there backyard. White Bear had no problem driving to Cloquet and Rapids though. Why would they do that?

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:06 am
by mulefarm
I would bet Mahtomedi has no interest in scheduling more AA schools.

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:23 am
by Jeffy95
O-townClown wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:50 am


4. You COMPLETELY choose to bring up several nonsensical smokescreens while ignoring the obvious point: H’town & D East are close to each other. If I drive the whatever ten miles how many schools with decent hockey programs will I pass? Eden Prairie can more easily play Minnetonka, Chaska, Edina, Blake, Benilde, Wayzata, Maple Grove, St. Thomas, Blaine, and a few others before they get 15 miles from Mahtomedi.
Exactly! Which brings me back to the simple question that you refuse to answer. Why would those teams travel to Brainerd, Moorhead, Duluth, Cloquet and Grand Rapids, instead of playing the Perennial Top Class A team in the Metro which is a measly 30 miles away? You're the one who brought up earlier that gas isn't cheap.

Edina played zero Class A teams last season. White Bear Lake Zero, Blaine Zero, Maple Grove Zero, Lakeville North Zero, Minnetonka played one. And I'm sure I could find a lot more if I had time to look. Are we seeing a possible trend yet? Is it possible that these teams would rather play teams in their own class?

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:35 am
by bardown27
Jeffy95 wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:23 am
O-townClown wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:50 am


4. You COMPLETELY choose to bring up several nonsensical smokescreens while ignoring the obvious point: H’town & D East are close to each other. If I drive the whatever ten miles how many schools with decent hockey programs will I pass? Eden Prairie can more easily play Minnetonka, Chaska, Edina, Blake, Benilde, Wayzata, Maple Grove, St. Thomas, Blaine, and a few others before they get 15 miles from Mahtomedi.
Exactly! Which brings me back to the simple question that you refuse to answer. Why would those teams travel to Brainerd, Moorhead, Duluth, Cloquet and Grand Rapids, instead of playing the Perennial Top Class A team in the Metro which is a measly 30 miles away? You're the one who brought up earlier that gas isn't cheap.

Edina played zero Class A teams last season. White Bear Lake Zero, Blaine Zero, Maple Grove Zero, Lakeville North Zero, Minnetonka played one. And I'm sure I could find a lot more if I had time to look. Are we seeing a possible trend yet? Is it possible that these teams would rather play teams in their own class?
Blaine and MG both played a Class A team

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:56 am
by Jeffy95
bardown27 wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:35 am
Jeffy95 wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:23 am
O-townClown wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:50 am


4. You COMPLETELY choose to bring up several nonsensical smokescreens while ignoring the obvious point: H’town & D East are close to each other. If I drive the whatever ten miles how many schools with decent hockey programs will I pass? Eden Prairie can more easily play Minnetonka, Chaska, Edina, Blake, Benilde, Wayzata, Maple Grove, St. Thomas, Blaine, and a few others before they get 15 miles from Mahtomedi.
Exactly! Which brings me back to the simple question that you refuse to answer. Why would those teams travel to Brainerd, Moorhead, Duluth, Cloquet and Grand Rapids, instead of playing the Perennial Top Class A team in the Metro which is a measly 30 miles away? You're the one who brought up earlier that gas isn't cheap.

Edina played zero Class A teams last season. White Bear Lake Zero, Blaine Zero, Maple Grove Zero, Lakeville North Zero, Minnetonka played one. And I'm sure I could find a lot more if I had time to look. Are we seeing a possible trend yet? Is it possible that these teams would rather play teams in their own class?
Blaine and MG both played a Class A team
Oops, my bad. I missed Armstrong/Cooper. Didn’t even realize they were an A team. So those two played a whopping one Class A team. I see Lakeville South played one also.

East played two, so it looks like they have them all beat. Denfeld, which is required by the School District, and Superior, who they have played for Decades.

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:09 am
by mulefarm
Isn’t Spring Lake Park an A team?

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:14 am
by bardown27
Jeffy95 wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:56 am
bardown27 wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:35 am
Jeffy95 wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:23 am


Exactly! Which brings me back to the simple question that you refuse to answer. Why would those teams travel to Brainerd, Moorhead, Duluth, Cloquet and Grand Rapids, instead of playing the Perennial Top Class A team in the Metro which is a measly 30 miles away? You're the one who brought up earlier that gas isn't cheap.

Edina played zero Class A teams last season. White Bear Lake Zero, Blaine Zero, Maple Grove Zero, Lakeville North Zero, Minnetonka played one. And I'm sure I could find a lot more if I had time to look. Are we seeing a possible trend yet? Is it possible that these teams would rather play teams in their own class?
Blaine and MG both played a Class A team
Oops, my bad. I missed Armstrong/Cooper. Didn’t even realize they were an A team. So those two played a whopping one Class A team. I see Lakeville South played one also.

East played two, so it looks like they have them all beat. Denfeld, which is required by the School District, and Superior, who they have played for Decades.
66 AA teams.
Of those 66, 57 played an A team (Lakeville North, Prior Lake, Burnsville, Eastview, Rosemount, East Ridge, WBL, Edina, STMA)
Of the 14 AA teams who played Hermantown, only Lakeville South, Eden Prairie, and CDH only played Hermantown. The other 11 AA teams who were on Hermantown's schedule played at least 1 more class A team.

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:15 am
by Jeffy95
mulefarm wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:09 am
Isn’t Spring Lake Park an A team?
They are in 5AA.

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:28 am
by Jeffy95
bardown27 wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:14 am
Jeffy95 wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:56 am
bardown27 wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:35 am


Blaine and MG both played a Class A team
Oops, my bad. I missed Armstrong/Cooper. Didn’t even realize they were an A team. So those two played a whopping one Class A team. I see Lakeville South played one also.

East played two, so it looks like they have them all beat. Denfeld, which is required by the School District, and Superior, who they have played for Decades.
66 AA teams.
Of those 66, 57 played an A team (Lakeville North, Prior Lake, Burnsville, Eastview, Rosemount, East Ridge, WBL, Edina, STMA)
Of the 14 AA teams who played Hermantown, only Lakeville South, Eden Prairie, and CDH only played Hermantown. The other 11 AA teams who were on Hermantown's schedule played at least 1 more class A team.
Thanks for doing the research. So it looks like the Top 20 AA teams play between zero and two A teams. Same as East. It’s interesting to see it laid out like that. I would have thought that more of them would be playing top Class A teams locally. We can see that isn’t the case, they would much rather travel to play AA teams.

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:51 am
by bardown27
From Karl's final top 20 from YHH page:

1. Hill - Mahtomedi (2x), Simley, SSP, Henry Sibley, Hermantown, Tartan
2. EP - Hermantown
3. Blake - Breck (2x), SPA, Minnehaha, Providence Academy
4. Andover - Cathedral, Armstrong Cooper,
5. STA - Mahtomedi (2x), Tartan, SSP, Simley, Henry Sibley, Eveleth-Gilbert
6. MG - Armstrong Cooper
7. Moorhead - Greenway, EGF, Warroad, Cathedral
8. BSM - Hermantown, Armstrong Cooper, Bloomington Kennedy
9. Lakeville South - Hermantown
10. Chaska - Eveleth-Gilbert, Bloomington Kennedy (2x), Orono
11. Prior Lake - NONE
12. Blaine - Armstrong Cooper
13. WBL - NONE
14. Roseau - TRF, (2x) Hibbing, LOW, Warroad (2x), Greenway, EGF (2x), Crookston
15. CDH - Hermantown
16. Stillwater - Mahtomedi
17. Hastings - Dodge County, Tartan (2x), Henry Sibley (2x), Mahtomedi, Simley (2x), SSP(2x)
18. Edina - NONE
19. Grand Rapids - Virginia, Warroad, Hermantown (2x), Greenway, Hibbing
20. Burnsville - NONE

may have missed a few

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:00 pm
by O-townClown
It’s weird anyone is worried about “a Class A team” when the only one that is a) in close proximity to a usually good HS program, and b) has an overwhelming consensus agreeing they are in no way representative of Class A is Hermantown.

Warroad plays Roseau
Cathedral plays St. Cloud
East Grand Forks plays Moorhead (I think)
Mahtomedi plays Hill-Murray

Hermantown is the only Class A team regularly in the Top 10-15 of PS2, which is as good of a guide for team strength as any.

It’ll be interesting to see if the next Duluth East coach schedules H’town.

Fact: a car leaving Duluth East High will pass fewer schools with a decent HS hockey team on its way to Mahtomedi than one leaving Eden Prairie.

Conclusion: one would have to be numb to their own blindness to consider the Zephyrs a natural geographic rival to the Eagles.

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:07 pm
by rainier2
O-townClown wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:00 pm
It’s weird anyone is worried about “a Class A team” when the only one that is a) in close proximity to a usually good HS program, and b) has an overwhelming consensus agreeing they are in no way representative of Class A is Hermantown.

Warroad plays Roseau
Cathedral plays St. Cloud
East Grand Forks plays Moorhead (I think)
Mahtomedi plays Hill-Murray

Hermantown is the only Class A team regularly in the Top 10-15 of PS2, which is as good of a guide for team strength as any.

It’ll be interesting to see if the next Duluth East coach schedules H’town.

Fact: a car leaving Duluth East High will pass fewer schools with a decent HS hockey team on its way to Mahtomedi than one leaving Eden Prairie.

Conclusion: one would have to be numb to their own blindness to consider the Zephyrs a natural geographic rival to the Eagles.
Randolph is just showing respect for Bruce Plante, who publicly said A is "where we belong" and that it's not fair for small town, homegrown teams to compete against big schools from big cities. :D

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:53 pm
by Stang5280
O-townClown wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:00 pm
It’s weird anyone is worried about “a Class A team” when the only one that is a) in close proximity to a usually good HS program, and b) has an overwhelming consensus agreeing they are in no way representative of Class A is Hermantown.

Warroad plays Roseau
Cathedral plays St. Cloud
East Grand Forks plays Moorhead (I think)
Mahtomedi plays Hill-Murray


Hermantown is the only Class A team regularly in the Top 10-15 of PS2, which is as good of a guide for team strength as any.

It’ll be interesting to see if the next Duluth East coach schedules H’town.

Fact: a car leaving Duluth East High will pass fewer schools with a decent HS hockey team on its way to Mahtomedi than one leaving Eden Prairie.

Conclusion: one would have to be numb to their own blindness to consider the Zephyrs a natural geographic rival to the Eagles.
A few counterpoints...

Three of the four you mentioned are conference games, which means that the teams are required to play one another.

St. Cloud Cathedral’s schedule consists almost entirely of top Class A teams, with only a few AA opponents sprinkled in.

I don’t get the argument that Mahtomedi is not an “elite” Class A program. While they never could never manage to break through to a championship until this year, the Zephyrs are a top five team nearly every season, and have actually been relevant longer than the Duluth-area team that shall not be named. So why aren’t we harping on WBL for not scheduling a program that is basically in their backyard (the schools are 3.4 miles apart).

When Breck was still a Class A powerhouse, former coach Larson pushed for a move to AA, in part because they couldn’t schedule enough AA teams during the regular season to find a more appropriate level of competition. None of the programs from the western suburbs would play them, with the exception of Wayzata a few years, so they ended up scheduling Moorhead and STMA for several seasons. It seems odd to me that some of those same west suburban teams are now willing to play the Duluth-area team that shall not be named.

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:02 pm
by BP
Stang5280 wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:53 pm
[It seems odd to me that some of those same west suburban teams are now willing to play the Duluth-area team that shall not be named.

Stang - the reason is those Western teams were losing players to Breck. It's a no win situation if Wayzata (for example) played Breck and lost to them. Then - Breck makes a bigger case to get some of those players. Playing H'town doesn't affect a chance of losing players to them.

Just a thought to consider.

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:39 pm
by Stang5280
BP wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:02 pm
Stang5280 wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:53 pm
[It seems odd to me that some of those same west suburban teams are now willing to play the Duluth-area team that shall not be named.

Stang - the reason is those Western teams were losing players to Breck. It's a no win situation if Wayzata (for example) played Breck and lost to them. Then - Breck makes a bigger case to get some of those players. Playing H'town doesn't affect a chance of losing players to them.

Just a thought to consider.
Yeah, I realize that is mainly the reason why those matchups didn’t happen, but I didn’t really spell it out clearly in my ramblings. (Heck, section mate Mound-Westonka still refuses to play Breck.) However, couldn’t the same be said for Hermantown playing local AA competition? They do have a propensity to attract outside players to the program.

In some respects, these games are are often a no-win situation for the AA schools. If they win, well, of course they should defeat the smaller school; if they lose, it reflects poorly on them.

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:44 pm
by Jeffy95
Stang5280 wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:53 pm
O-townClown wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:00 pm
It’s weird anyone is worried about “a Class A team” when the only one that is a) in close proximity to a usually good HS program, and b) has an overwhelming consensus agreeing they are in no way representative of Class A is Hermantown.

Warroad plays Roseau
Cathedral plays St. Cloud
East Grand Forks plays Moorhead (I think)
Mahtomedi plays Hill-Murray


Hermantown is the only Class A team regularly in the Top 10-15 of PS2, which is as good of a guide for team strength as any.

It’ll be interesting to see if the next Duluth East coach schedules H’town.

Fact: a car leaving Duluth East High will pass fewer schools with a decent HS hockey team on its way to Mahtomedi than one leaving Eden Prairie.

Conclusion: one would have to be numb to their own blindness to consider the Zephyrs a natural geographic rival to the Eagles.
A few counterpoints...

Three of the four you mentioned are conference games, which means that the teams are required to play one another.

St. Cloud Cathedral’s schedule consists almost entirely of top Class A teams, with only a few AA opponents sprinkled in.

I don’t get the argument that Mahtomedi is not an “elite” Class A program. While they never could never manage to break through to a championship until this year, the Zephyrs are a top five team nearly every season, and have actually been relevant longer than the Duluth-area team that shall not be named. So why aren’t we harping on WBL for not scheduling a program that is basically in their backyard (the schools are 3.4 miles apart).

When Breck was still a Class A powerhouse, former coach Larson pushed for a move to AA, in part because they couldn’t schedule enough AA teams during the regular season to find a more appropriate level of competition. None of the programs from the western suburbs would play them, with the exception of Wayzata a few years, so they ended up scheduling Moorhead and STMA for several seasons. It seems odd to me that some of those same west suburban teams are now willing to play the Duluth-area team that shall not be named.
Some very good counterpoints indeed.

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:48 pm
by Jeffy95
O-townClown wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:19 pm
Thank the almighty that we live in a country that allows people responsible for scheduling a high school activity to do as they see fit.
Just not Randolph and East?

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:23 pm
by O-townClown
Jeffy95 wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:48 pm
O-townClown wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:19 pm
Thank the almighty that we live in a country that allows people responsible for scheduling a high school activity to do as they see fit.
Just not Randolph and East?
They can schedule however they see fit. If petty tribalism is more important than spirited competition - the very essence of HS sports - that's on them.

Re: The Hermantown Thread

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:32 pm
by east hockey
O-townClown wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:23 pm
Jeffy95 wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:48 pm
O-townClown wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:19 pm
Thank the almighty that we live in a country that allows people responsible for scheduling a high school activity to do as they see fit.
Just not Randolph and East?
They can schedule however they see fit. If petty tribalism is more important than spirited competition - the very essence of HS sports - that's on them.
Nice! Consent and snark in the same post :mrgreen:

Lee