The Hermantown Thread

[Goose21]

The MSHSL ‘s loopholes have been exposed by Hermantown hockey. More squads throughout the state should expose these loopholes as well. Hermantown isn’t breaking any MSHSL rules.

So more squads throughout the state using loopholes is good for hockey?

Times are changing.....that’s all.

So whatever way the wind is blowing?

[7TIMECHAMPS]

The MSHSL ‘s loopholes have been exposed by Hermantown hockey. More squads throughout the state should expose these loopholes as well. Hermantown isn’t breaking any MSHSL rules.

So more squads throughout the state using loopholes is good for hockey?

I would hardly consider what Hermantown does a "loophole". If so all private schools use the same loophole. As have several others in the past (see Warroad in the glory years). If you want to make a rule that says a kid can't play hockey unless they have lived in a town for 10 years that is more of a structural change. Is that not the only way to really stop this? You can say make them move to AA but is that really fair either? Good teams must move to AA. How does Forest Lake for example like that? They don't have the resources that Hermantown does either. When do their kids get to go to a state tournament? That rule is unfair to AA teams as well. Now they must compete with the schools that have the numbers resource and the schools with the recruiting resource. Hermantown is breaking no rules. This is how it is set up. You cant just kick out all of the good teams so that your little Johnny can "go to state". Who will be next after Hermantown? SCC? Everyone just complains until the teams ahead of them are kicked out and they are left. Call me old fashioned but the state tournament is for the teams with the 20 best players. And this is the kicker. It is without regards to fairness or resources. Of course what Hermantown does isn't fair. But no aspect of life is fair. May as well quit whining about it. Your kid can still play hockey. And if they are better than Hermantown they can play in the state tournament too. This topic is old.

[elliott70]

It is funny everyone says Hermantown has all these open enrollees...

Every player on their varsity roster lives in HT school district.
One player moved to HT while in bantams.
One player moved to HT as a first year peewee.
All the other 18 were there in mites, one in squirts.
Where did these kids learn to play hockey? Yeah, in Hermantown.

Its a nice community, nice school, it draws people. They have the advantage over say Intl Falls and probably every other section 7A school.

Roseau and Bemidji fall behind every other section 8AA school when it comes to resources to make a strong hockey program.
That is the way it is.

To come on here and say the players would rather play AA, how many kids have you talked to? The kids want to play hockey, they don't want to walk in an arena and be booed and heckled for playing single A. Those of you that have done that or encouraged it - shame on you.

Those in power at HT make the decision based on what they think is best for their students and their school.

[rainier2]

It is funny everyone says Hermantown has all these open enrollees...

Every player on their varsity roster lives in HT school district.
One player moved to HT while in bantams.
One player moved to HT as a first year peewee.
All the other 18 were there in mites, one in squirts.
Where did these kids learn to play hockey? Yeah, in Hermantown.

Its a nice community, nice school, it draws people. They have the advantage over say Intl Falls and probably every other section 7A school.

Roseau and Bemidji fall behind every other section 8AA school when it comes to resources to make a strong hockey program.
That is the way it is.

To come on here and say the players would rather play AA, how many kids have you talked to? The kids want to play hockey, they don't want to walk in an arena and be booed and heckled for playing single A. Those of you that have done that or encouraged it - shame on you.

Those in power at HT make the decision based on what they think is best for their students and their school.

Why didn't Bruce Plante say this about STA and Breck? Why weren't Hermantown fans and parents saying this back then about the metro privates? Why should any of us accept this excuse if the Hermantown coach and parents wouldn't?

Hermantown isn't breaking the rules and those in power may be doing what they think is best, but that doesn't make it right. You can teach your kids to make fun of the disabled behind their backs and to never help an elderly woman whose grocery cart has tipped over in the parking lot; you aren't breaking any laws, but should you?

I did, in fact, talk to a former Hermantown player about two years ago, and he thought that 50% of the team would have voted to play AA. I'm guessing that number is higher today, given the even greater success Hermantown has had against top AA teams.

[rainier2]

The MSHSL ‘s loopholes have been exposed by Hermantown hockey. More squads throughout the state should expose these loopholes as well. Hermantown isn’t breaking any MSHSL rules.

So more squads throughout the state using loopholes is good for hockey?

I would hardly consider what Hermantown does a "loophole". If so all private schools use the same loophole. As have several others in the past (see Warroad in the glory years). If you want to make a rule that says a kid can't play hockey unless they have lived in a town for 10 years that is more of a structural change. Is that not the only way to really stop this? You can say make them move to AA but is that really fair either? Good teams must move to AA. How does Forest Lake for example like that? They don't have the resources that Hermantown does either. When do their kids get to go to a state tournament? That rule is unfair to AA teams as well. Now they must compete with the schools that have the numbers resource and the schools with the recruiting resource. Hermantown is breaking no rules. This is how it is set up. You cant just kick out all of the good teams so that your little Johnny can "go to state". Who will be next after Hermantown? SCC? Everyone just complains until the teams ahead of them are kicked out and they are left. Call me old fashioned but the state tournament is for the teams with the 20 best players. And this is the kicker. It is without regards to fairness or resources. Of course what Hermantown does isn't fair. But no aspect of life is fair. May as well quit whining about it. Your kid can still play hockey. And if they are better than Hermantown they can play in the state tournament too. This topic is old.

This is exactly what Bruce Plante did when he couldn't beat STA or Breck. Shouldn't we hold Hermantown to the same standard set by the patriarch of their hockey program?

[7TIMECHAMPS]

So more squads throughout the state using loopholes is good for hockey?

I would hardly consider what Hermantown does a "loophole". If so all private schools use the same loophole. As have several others in the past (see Warroad in the glory years). If you want to make a rule that says a kid can't play hockey unless they have lived in a town for 10 years that is more of a structural change. Is that not the only way to really stop this? You can say make them move to AA but is that really fair either? Good teams must move to AA. How does Forest Lake for example like that? They don't have the resources that Hermantown does either. When do their kids get to go to a state tournament? That rule is unfair to AA teams as well. Now they must compete with the schools that have the numbers resource and the schools with the recruiting resource. Hermantown is breaking no rules. This is how it is set up. You cant just kick out all of the good teams so that your little Johnny can "go to state". Who will be next after Hermantown? SCC? Everyone just complains until the teams ahead of them are kicked out and they are left. Call me old fashioned but the state tournament is for the teams with the 20 best players. And this is the kicker. It is without regards to fairness or resources. Of course what Hermantown does isn't fair. But no aspect of life is fair. May as well quit whining about it. Your kid can still play hockey. And if they are better than Hermantown they can play in the state tournament too. This topic is old.

This is exactly what Bruce Plante did when he couldn't beat STA or Breck. Shouldn't we hold Hermantown to the same standard set by the patriarch of their hockey program?

I don't like that Bruce did that either. That is why I spoke negatively about that sort of behavior. But the cycle has to stop somewhere doesn't it? Let's say Hermantown moves up. How long does it take for people start crying foul about Greenway or whoever else it is? I guarantee you can find some Greenway people that have complained about Hermantown over the years. Then should we apply that same standard that if you complained about someone winning too much and you start winning then you have to move up too? (Not picking on Greenway specifically just used them as an example)

It is so funny how this works. Everyone cries when other people recruit or draw kids or whatever, but when it happens in their own program they don't say a word.

[rainier2]

I would hardly consider what Hermantown does a "loophole". If so all private schools use the same loophole. As have several others in the past (see Warroad in the glory years). If you want to make a rule that says a kid can't play hockey unless they have lived in a town for 10 years that is more of a structural change. Is that not the only way to really stop this? You can say make them move to AA but is that really fair either? Good teams must move to AA. How does Forest Lake for example like that? They don't have the resources that Hermantown does either. When do their kids get to go to a state tournament? That rule is unfair to AA teams as well. Now they must compete with the schools that have the numbers resource and the schools with the recruiting resource. Hermantown is breaking no rules. This is how it is set up. You cant just kick out all of the good teams so that your little Johnny can "go to state". Who will be next after Hermantown? SCC? Everyone just complains until the teams ahead of them are kicked out and they are left. Call me old fashioned but the state tournament is for the teams with the 20 best players. And this is the kicker. It is without regards to fairness or resources. Of course what Hermantown does isn't fair. But no aspect of life is fair. May as well quit whining about it. Your kid can still play hockey. And if they are better than Hermantown they can play in the state tournament too. This topic is old.

This is exactly what Bruce Plante did when he couldn't beat STA or Breck. Shouldn't we hold Hermantown to the same standard set by the patriarch of their hockey program?

I don't like that Bruce did that either. That is why I spoke negatively about that sort of behavior. But the cycle has to stop somewhere doesn't it? Let's say Hermantown moves up. How long does it take for people start crying foul about Greenway or whoever else it is? I guarantee you can find some Greenway people that have complained about Hermantown over the years. Then should we apply that same standard that if you complained about someone winning too much and you start winning then you have to move up too? (Not picking on Greenway specifically just used them as an example)

It is so funny how this works. Everyone cries when other people recruit or draw kids or whatever, but when it happens in their own program they don't say a word.

You think Greenway might go to 10 straight Class A championships? What other Class A team goes to state every year and could be this dominant? What other Class A team plays AA all through youth levels and is then competitive with top AA programs once they reach HS?

The Class A-sized programs that could do this are already in AA!!!

You say that the cycle of whining has to stop somewhere, and I agree. It should stop right where it started: Hermantown.

[hockey59]

I would hardly consider what Hermantown does a "loophole". If so all private schools use the same loophole. As have several others in the past (see Warroad in the glory years). If you want to make a rule that says a kid can't play hockey unless they have lived in a town for 10 years that is more of a structural change. Is that not the only way to really stop this? You can say make them move to AA but is that really fair either? Good teams must move to AA. How does Forest Lake for example like that? They don't have the resources that Hermantown does either. When do their kids get to go to a state tournament? That rule is unfair to AA teams as well. Now they must compete with the schools that have the numbers resource and the schools with the recruiting resource. Hermantown is breaking no rules. This is how it is set up. You cant just kick out all of the good teams so that your little Johnny can "go to state". Who will be next after Hermantown? SCC? Everyone just complains until the teams ahead of them are kicked out and they are left. Call me old fashioned but the state tournament is for the teams with the 20 best players. And this is the kicker. It is without regards to fairness or resources. Of course what Hermantown does isn't fair. But no aspect of life is fair. May as well quit whining about it. Your kid can still play hockey. And if they are better than Hermantown they can play in the state tournament too. This topic is old.

This is exactly what Bruce Plante did when he couldn't beat STA or Breck. Shouldn't we hold Hermantown to the same standard set by the patriarch of their hockey program?

I don't like that Bruce did that either. That is why I spoke negatively about that sort of behavior. But the cycle has to stop somewhere doesn't it? Let's say Hermantown moves up. How long does it take for people start crying foul about Greenway or whoever else it is? I guarantee you can find some Greenway people that have complained about Hermantown over the years. Then should we apply that same standard that if you complained about someone winning too much and you start winning then you have to move up too? (Not picking on Greenway specifically just used them as an example)

It is so funny how this works. Everyone cries when other people recruit or draw kids or whatever, but when it happens in their own program they don't say a word.

At the end of the day...the administration at Hermantown can go whatever they please. But if they stay Single A after this season...pretty much everybody statewide who follows HS hockey...will lose all respect for their program. STA is INFINITELY more RESPECTED in 2018-2019 than Hermantown...due to obvious, blatant SANDBAGGING by Hermantown. But...they can do what they want...what gets old about this whole debate...is that being “respected” clearly doesn’t mean jack squat to Hermantown school administrators

[kniven]

I talk to a lot of people, and Hermantown Hawks boys high school hockey hasn’t had much respect for several years now. Hermantown hockey isn’t real concerned about it though. AA metros line up every year to get a shot at them in the season, their kids go D1 at an alarming rate, and they make the X I very year. That = success in my book

[7TIMECHAMPS]

This is exactly what Bruce Plante did when he couldn't beat STA or Breck. Shouldn't we hold Hermantown to the same standard set by the patriarch of their hockey program?

I don't like that Bruce did that either. That is why I spoke negatively about that sort of behavior. But the cycle has to stop somewhere doesn't it? Let's say Hermantown moves up. How long does it take for people start crying foul about Greenway or whoever else it is? I guarantee you can find some Greenway people that have complained about Hermantown over the years. Then should we apply that same standard that if you complained about someone winning too much and you start winning then you have to move up too? (Not picking on Greenway specifically just used them as an example)

It is so funny how this works. Everyone cries when other people recruit or draw kids or whatever, but when it happens in their own program they don't say a word.

You think Greenway might go to 10 straight Class A championships? What other Class A team goes to state every year and could be this dominant? What other Class A team plays AA all through youth levels and is then competitive with top AA programs once they reach HS?

The Class A-sized programs that could do this are already in AA!!!

You say that the cycle of whining has to stop somewhere, and I agree. It should stop right where it started: Hermantown.

I never said they don't have advantages or that it is fair. Clearly they have advantages. Some of which are unfair. Maybe we should just make it so that the state tournament is a rotation. Each team gets a turn. No section tournaments. That is fair right? Oh except the best players aren't in the tournament.

Also please read the part of my post that says I am just using Greenway as an example. It could be any team.

Please, this did not start with Hermantown. I remember Warroad taking a beating back in the day. Before Hermantown was even close to relevance.

Also as a side note I am not arguing that Hermantown hasn't been dominant at all, but maybe if people hadn't whined so much about teams like STA (and yes I know Hermantown was a part of that but they were not the only ones, not even close) there would be someone that could beat them.

They are hypocritical yes, but that doesn't make it right to keep the cycle going. Like I said I would bet there are people in every program across the state that rip Hermantown. Under the doctrine that they complained so now they have to go if they start winning too then any program that wins consistently has to move up. Getting pretty close to the beloved Tier 1 & 2 system there aren't we?

[elliott70]

"Why didn't Bruce Plante say this about STA and Breck? Why weren't Hermantown fans and parents saying this back then about the metro privates? Why should any of us accept this excuse if the Hermantown coach and parents wouldn't"

I don't know but why would you not accept the HT boys for what they are?

[elliott70]

"but that doesn't make it right"

Whose definition of right?
Who is hurt by what they're doing what they are doing?

Right and wrong is for the justice system and religion, for me what is right is how I treat people.

[elliott70]

"This is exactly what Bruce Plante did when he couldn't beat STA or Breck. Shouldn't we hold Hermantown to the same standard set by the patriarch of their hockey program?"

How do you come up with this stuff?
Bruce said stupid things and that is how we judge everyone else that is involved.
Bruce is gone - deal with the things you can deal with because we all know that we cannot change what HT does in high school hockey.
They are single A and nothing will change that this year.

[elliott70]

"What other Class A team plays AA all through youth levels and is then competitive with top AA programs once they reach HS?"

Mahtomedi,
not per se, but St Cloud Cathedral

East Grand Forks, Warroad and Thief River Falls don't play AA but play all the AA youth teams they want in the west, north west and North Dakota.

[rainier2]

I don't like that Bruce did that either. That is why I spoke negatively about that sort of behavior. But the cycle has to stop somewhere doesn't it? Let's say Hermantown moves up. How long does it take for people start crying foul about Greenway or whoever else it is? I guarantee you can find some Greenway people that have complained about Hermantown over the years. Then should we apply that same standard that if you complained about someone winning too much and you start winning then you have to move up too? (Not picking on Greenway specifically just used them as an example)

It is so funny how this works. Everyone cries when other people recruit or draw kids or whatever, but when it happens in their own program they don't say a word.

You think Greenway might go to 10 straight Class A championships? What other Class A team goes to state every year and could be this dominant? What other Class A team plays AA all through youth levels and is then competitive with top AA programs once they reach HS?

The Class A-sized programs that could do this are already in AA!!!

You say that the cycle of whining has to stop somewhere, and I agree. It should stop right where it started: Hermantown.

I never said they don't have advantages or that it is fair. Clearly they have advantages. Some of which are unfair. Maybe we should just make it so that the state tournament is a rotation. Each team gets a turn. No section tournaments. That is fair right? Oh except the best players aren't in the tournament.

It's not about everyone getting their "turn" at state. It's about a large city suburban program that plays AA all throughout youth competing just fine with the very best in AA at youth and in HS, yet choosing to play down so that they can face weaker teams when playoffs start, thus guaranteeing them a spot in the A title game. This is fine with you? Everyone should just shut up and smile and be happy Hermantown is teaching all the other kids in Class A that life isn't fair, right?

Also please read the part of my post that says I am just using Greenway as an example. It could be any team.

Exactly, you gave Greenway as an example, so you must believe that they would be capable of going on a 10 year title game run. Do you really believe this? If not Greenway, what other A teams do you think can go on this type of run?

Please, this did not start with Hermantown. I remember Warroad taking a beating back in the day. Before Hermantown was even close to relevance.

Did anyone say this started with Hermantown? Maybe Warroad should have taken a shot at AA when they had those great teams. Were they beating top 8AA teams those seasons? What large MN city is Warroad a suburb of?

Also as a side note I am not arguing that Hermantown hasn't been dominant at all, but maybe if people hadn't whined so much about teams like STA (and yes I know Hermantown was a part of that but they were not the only ones, not even close) there would be someone that could beat them.

So you're saying that if no one had whined, then STA might still be in Class A, and because they would beating Hermantown, this would be an improvement? Do you honestly believe this?

They are hypocritical yes, but that doesn't make it right to keep the cycle going. Like I said I would bet there are people in every program across the state that rip Hermantown. Under the doctrine that they complained so now they have to go if they start winning too then any program that wins consistently has to move up. Getting pretty close to the beloved Tier 1 & 2 system there aren't we?

Yes, any team that can compete with the very best in AA on a yearly basis should move up to AA. Do you think this is a bad standard to set?

[rainier2]

"This is exactly what Bruce Plante did when he couldn't beat STA or Breck. Shouldn't we hold Hermantown to the same standard set by the patriarch of their hockey program?"

How do you come up with this stuff?
Bruce said stupid things and that is how we judge everyone else that is involved.
Bruce is gone - deal with the things you can deal with because we all know that we cannot change what HT does in high school hockey.
They are single A and nothing will change that this year.

It wasn't just Bruce saying it. It was Hawk fans on this board, Hawk parents I worked with, and even some Hawk students I knew. They all talked about how unfair it was that a big city school was abusing the enrollment rules to beat down smaller city teams. Sound familiar?

We can't change what HT hockey does? Are you implying public pressure has no effect? Did STA just decide they had had enough of the free publicity and trophies and happily skipped on up to AA? I think the "whining" statewide had a great to do with their decision. And if the "whining" has no effect, then why do you care if it's discussed on this board?

The Hermantown coach and faithful wanted STA out of the way so the Hawks could kick butt in Class A. They got their wish. Can't the rest of us have wishes too?

[rainier2]

"but that doesn't make it right"

Whose definition of right?
Who is hurt by what they're doing what they are doing?

Right and wrong is for the justice system and religion, for me what is right is how I treat people.

The kids are being hurt. After working their hardest to compete with the best in AA all their lives, suddenly as sophomores the rug gets pulled out from under them and they are forced to face weaker competition in the playoffs. They get to beat Wayzata and GR, and play a close game with Tonka during the HS season, and they have to go watch these three teams win AA titles in front of 18,000 people, while they get the "thrill" of putting small town teams into running time in front of a half-full lower bowl.

I think what the Hermantown decision makers are doing to those kids is borderline cruel, and apparently you don't. We will have to agree to disagree.

[7TIMECHAMPS]

They are playing in the class that the MSHSL has put them in. Maybe you should write to the MSHSL about how unfair life is. And sorry but somebody is going to teach them that so why not Hermantown kids?

They're better it is that easy. You act like Hermantown is the only town with advantages. Guess what Edina has advantages over Armstrong Cooper too. I know shocker that there are inequities in AA hockey as well.

Anyone that gets momentum going in their program could conceivably do it. Who would be most likely right now? Probably SCC followed by Mahtomedi, EGF, and Alex. That isn't the point I am making though. I am saying you can't kick teams out just because they are good. Isn't that getting back to the Tier 1 & 2 again?

They were beating up on 8AA as a matter of fact. I remember them spanking Roseau 15-1 in 05. I believe they tied Moorhead that year too. And that was one of the best teams Moorhead has ever had. They had some dominant teams in the 90's and early to mid 2000's. They beat up on much of 8AA and would been very competitive with top AA teams. I am sure other members can attest to that.

They may still be in A. I am not sure of their motivation. You are making my point that you just want to kick out everyone that is good and has some sort of an advantage. Why wouldn't it be good? Because then your team/kid have less of a chance to go?

Do you think kicking out every team that is good is a good precedent to set? Do you think if Hermantown moves up this will end? If you do you are a fool. History does not agree with that statement. You are arguing for the Tier system you just don't want to call it that. You are arguing based on talent not enrollment.

[7TIMECHAMPS]

"but that doesn't make it right"

Whose definition of right?
Who is hurt by what they're doing what they are doing?

Right and wrong is for the justice system and religion, for me what is right is how I treat people.

The kids are being hurt. After working their hardest to compete with the best in AA all their lives, suddenly as sophomores the rug gets pulled out from under them and they are forced to face weaker competition in the playoffs. They get to beat Wayzata and GR, and play a close game with Tonka during the HS season, and they have to go watch these three teams win AA titles in front of 18,000 people, while they get the "thrill" of putting small town teams into running time in front of a half-full lower bowl.

I think what the Hermantown decision makers are doing to those kids is borderline cruel, and apparently you don't. We will have to agree to disagree.

You pretending to care about the Hermantown kids isn't fooling anyone. If the A state tournament is so bad why do you spend so much time and energy trying to get Hermantown people to move up? You wouldn't want your team/kid to play in front of that half full lower bowl would you? By the way the Hermantown kids always seem thrilled to be at the A tournament. It seems like they enjoy themselves.

[Stang5280]

East Grand Forks, Warroad and Thief River Falls don't play AA but play all the AA youth teams they want in the west, north west and North Dakota.

Isn’t that just as much out of necessity as choice? Those programs are so geographically isolated that they pretty much have to schedule Moorhead, Roseau, etc. to face similar level competition without traveling all over the state. And it isn’t like they are playing anything approaching exclusively AA level youth schedules.

[Stang5280]

Anyone that gets momentum going in their program could conceivably do it. Who would be most likely right now? Probably SCC followed by Mahtomedi, EGF, and Alex. That isn't the point I am making though. I am saying you can't kick teams out just because they are good. Isn't that getting back to the Tier 1 & 2 again?
...

Do you think kicking out every team that is good is a good precedent to set? Do you think if Hermantown moves up this will end? If you do you are a fool. History does not agree with that statement. You are arguing for the Tier system you just don't want to call it that. You are arguing based on talent not enrollment.

These are great points. Personally, I am on the fence regarding Hermantown, in part because of their AA youth system and history of complaining about other successful (private) schools at the A level. However, encouraging every successful program to opt up to AA is a slippery slope that devalues the Class A tournament and leads us closer to the dreaded two tier system. I distinctly recall a few posts on the forum after last year’s tournament calling for Alexandria to move up, and they didn’t even win the final!

[rainier2]

They are playing in the class that the MSHSL has put them in. Maybe you should write to the MSHSL about how unfair life is. And sorry but somebody is going to teach them that so why not Hermantown kids?

No, the MSHSL gives them, as a Class A team, the choice which class to play in. Yeah, I suppose when anyone is abusing a loophole, we're all better off not saying anything and just meekly accepting our fate. That's a solid life lesson.

They're better it is that easy. You act like Hermantown is the only town with advantages. Guess what Edina has advantages over Armstrong Cooper too. I know shocker that there are inequities in AA hockey as well.

Hermantown competes just fine with Edina, so no worries there.

Anyone that gets momentum going in their program could conceivably do it. Who would be most likely right now? Probably SCC followed by Mahtomedi, EGF, and Alex. That isn't the point I am making though. I am saying you can't kick teams out just because they are good. Isn't that getting back to the Tier 1 & 2 again?

I just think that when a team is good enough to compete with the best in AA, they should opt up to AA. Why does this concept escape you? I also firmly believe that when a team's AA-level group graduates, they should be able to got back to A if they can no longer compete with top AA teams. EGF was good enough to compete in AA a few years ago, and since then they have not been. Go to AA when you can; it's a pretty simple concept.

They were beating up on 8AA as a matter of fact. I remember them spanking Roseau 15-1 in 05. I believe they tied Moorhead that year too. And that was one of the best teams Moorhead has ever had. They had some dominant teams in the 90's and early to mid 2000's. They beat up on much of 8AA and would been very competitive with top AA teams. I am sure other members can attest to that.

That's awesome. How great would it have been to see them give AA a shot?

They may still be in A. I am not sure of their motivation. You are making my point that you just want to kick out everyone that is good and has some sort of an advantage. Why wouldn't it be good? Because then your team/kid have less of a chance to go?

Remind me, what other A team do I want kicked out? I don't want to kick out everyone that's good, you hallucinated that part. I want to kick out a program that has had a ton of A success and is very, very capable of AA success now and for years to come. You might extrapolate this to all good A teams, but I don't, so please don't accuse me of it.

Do you think kicking out every team that is good is a good precedent to set? Do you think if Hermantown moves up this will end? If you do you are a fool. History does not agree with that statement. You are arguing for the Tier system you just don't want to call it that. You are arguing based on talent not enrollment.

I don't know how you make the leap from me wanting Hermantown to opt up meaning I want every good team kicked out of A, but you are entitled to your delusions. Hermantown's enrollment is meaningless. If you don't know this by now, then you have missed the entire point of this 14 page thread.

I can tell all the whining is really getting you agitated. I have a solution: Don't read it. You have every right to whine about my whining, but as you know, life isn't fair, so sometimes you will encounter some whining. I am an unstoppable whining force! You cannot stop me!

[rainier2]

"but that doesn't make it right"

Whose definition of right?
Who is hurt by what they're doing what they are doing?

Right and wrong is for the justice system and religion, for me what is right is how I treat people.

The kids are being hurt. After working their hardest to compete with the best in AA all their lives, suddenly as sophomores the rug gets pulled out from under them and they are forced to face weaker competition in the playoffs. They get to beat Wayzata and GR, and play a close game with Tonka during the HS season, and they have to go watch these three teams win AA titles in front of 18,000 people, while they get the "thrill" of putting small town teams into running time in front of a half-full lower bowl.

I think what the Hermantown decision makers are doing to those kids is borderline cruel, and apparently you don't. We will have to agree to disagree.

You pretending to care about the Hermantown kids isn't fooling anyone. If the A state tournament is so bad why do you spend so much time and energy trying to get Hermantown people to move up? You wouldn't want your team/kid to play in front of that half full lower bowl would you? By the way the Hermantown kids always seem thrilled to be at the A tournament. It seems like they enjoy themselves.

If my favorite team beat the AA champ on an almost yearly basis, then yes, I wouldn't want my team/kid to play in a half-full lower bowl in Class A. Would you?

[rainier2]

East Grand Forks, Warroad and Thief River Falls don't play AA but play all the AA youth teams they want in the west, north west and North Dakota.

Isn’t that just as much out of necessity as choice? Those programs are so geographically isolated that they pretty much have to schedule Moorhead, Roseau, etc. to face similar level competition without traveling all over the state. And it isn’t like they are playing anything approaching exclusively AA level youth schedules.

Exactly, Hermantown is much closer to their eventual 7A foes than they are to Edina, Minnetonka, etc. Hermantown wants the tougher competition...until HS playoffs start.

[rainier2]

Anyone that gets momentum going in their program could conceivably do it. Who would be most likely right now? Probably SCC followed by Mahtomedi, EGF, and Alex. That isn't the point I am making though. I am saying you can't kick teams out just because they are good. Isn't that getting back to the Tier 1 & 2 again?
...

Do you think kicking out every team that is good is a good precedent to set? Do you think if Hermantown moves up this will end? If you do you are a fool. History does not agree with that statement. You are arguing for the Tier system you just don't want to call it that. You are arguing based on talent not enrollment.

These are great points. Personally, I am on the fence regarding Hermantown, in part because of their AA youth system and history of complaining about other successful (private) schools at the A level. However, encouraging every successful program to opt up to AA is a slippery slope that devalues the Class A tournament and leads us closer to the dreaded two tier system. I distinctly recall a few posts on the forum after last year’s tournament calling for Alexandria to move up, and they didn’t even win the final!

Yes, but let's not forget that teams can opt back down to A. No one is getting kicked out permanently. If, for example, the talent pipeline were to dry up after Hermantown goes AA because the guaranteed title game run isn't there anymore, they can simply opt down the next 2 year cycle.

If a program can develop to the point of competing with the best in AA almost every year, why wouldn't we all encourage them to go AA? When/if they return to A, at least the other teams will respect them for taking a shot. Seems like a win/win to me.