The Hermantown Thread

[Corn Cobb]

Here is the point. Hermantown has climbed to the top of this class A mountain 2 times in 11 years. Have comb one step from the top 8 times. The other times they got very close to the top! What is left to prove on this class A mountain? Nothing!

The only proof here is that Hermantown is a 7a problem...9 out 11 times someone else wins state.......the best route here is for the other 7a schools to drop to junior gold since all the forum crybabies feel they can't compete...

your buzzword phrases:integrity, donkey ride...used numerous times..

suck it up buttercup or have your team(s) drop to junior gold.


.

I laugh about how you say to suck it up yet are afraid to compete in AA. Stupidity at its finest on display right here lol

Bingo!!

[Wise Old Man]

"nu2hockey", I'm still waiting for you to answer the question I posed to you earlier about whether or not you believe Hermantown has an extremely unique advantage compared to any other Class "A" team in the state...

"defense", you keep asking when or, why can't the other Duluth area schools do what Hermantown does/attract players like Hermantown does? There are a number of reasons why Proctor, Denfeld, and North Shore aren't able to do what Hermantown has done or is currently doing, many of them fairly nuanced and involving "inside youth/high school hockey" stuff. But, I'll do my best to try and explain.

Reason one is socioeconomic in nature. Meaning, compared to Proctor, Denfeld, Cloquet, and North Shore, the demographics of Hermantown significantly skew toward the middle to upper-middle class tax brackets more than those other communities. Which, makes it easier for more of Hermantown's citizens to afford to play hockey. It's the same reason why Duluth East's numbers are always so strong. Meaning, both currently, and for the last 20 years, Hermantown's youth association has had more of its' kids playing youth hockey than any other Class "A" youth association in Section 7A for the last two decades. That means that initially, Hermantown had a slight advantage in building its' program using kids living within their own boundaries. And, to the great credit of their youth association and high school program, they did a great job developing those players and building a legitimate Class "A" program.

But then, Minnesota Hockey changed their eligibility rule so that a youth player could play at the youth association where they attend school. Even if they continue to live in their original youth hockey association's geographic boundary. By the time this rule changed (around 2008 or 09 if I recall), Hermantown had already been to state a few times and established themselves as one of the top public school Class "A" teams in the state. I say "top public school teams" because prior to Minnesota Hockey changing its' eligibility rule, only the Twin Cities metro private schools had the advantage of being able to attract/recruit top players from a large population center that didn't force kids/families to move to be immediately eligible. Which, is why Bruce Plante became so aggravated with St. Thomas Academy. His main issue with them was that they were a Twin Cities all-star team and, that they could draw so many talented kids from such a large surrounding metro area. That's actually one of my biggest issues with Hermantown not choosing to go up to "AA". Their success the last 10 years is based on the exact same advantage that Bruce used to rail on STA about. It's hypocrisy at it's absolute finest! Anyway, once Minnesota Hockey changed its' eligibility rule, Hermantown was uniquely situated -- both from the standpoint that they were already extremely successful, as well as their geographic location -- to take advantage of the rule change/situation. Or, stated more succinctly, people want to play for a "winner". By the time the youth rule changed, Proctor, Denfeld, Two Harbors, and Silver Bay (now the North Shore co-op) had been trending downward in overall numbers (high school & youth) and competitiveness for a number of years.

The other factor as to why Hermantown became THE program to migrate to in the Duluth area (even more so than Duluth East) -- especially once Minnesota Hockey changed the eligibility rule -- is that the first summer "AAA" hockey program in our area was started by a couple dads, one whose son played in the Hermantown youth program and the other who was in the East Duluth youth program but, eventually played at Marshall. Although there were a number of other Hermantown kids on those teams the first few years, there were also a number of other top kids from not only the greater Duluth/Cloquet area but, also from the Range as well. Again, once the eligibility rule had changed, Hermantown had already become a Class "A" power and, the unintended positive consequence of summer "AAA" hockey was that all of these top players evolved friendships that often resulted in some of those kids choosing to open-enroll to Hermantown. It was especially true for the Duluth area kids. Then, Hermantown came back to Section 7A and it became obvious they were going to be the prohibitive favorite to get to state every year which obviously became THE attractant for kids from outside their program.

Obviously, with Proctor opening its' new facility two years ago, along with the youth association hiring Scott Pionk as their hockey director as well as likely being the new boys high school head coach as well, their leadership is hopeful that they will get the ship turned in the right direction. I know their Mite numbers are up the last two years which is obviously a great sign.

As for Denfeld, with their coaching staff of Dale Jago, Ryan Geris, and Jake Johnson, they may have the best overall boys high school coaching staff in the Duluth area. This year's Denfeld Bantam "A" team had a solid year and had 3-4 legitimate Bantam "AA" level players on it. But, they also had 3-4 legitimate Bantam "B" level players as well and, to the coach's credit, he played the whole roster pretty equally throughout the season so, the Denfeld high school program should only improve, at least for the next two years.

Unfortunately for the North Shore co-op between Two Harbors and Silver Bay, long-time boys and girls coach, Mike Guzzo, just retired after a tremendous career and there is absolutely no one who has put his heart and soul into first, the Silver Bay boys program, but then the co-op program as well. He has also been an integral part of the Silver Bay youth program as well and, his unrivaled passion for "his" kids will be missed. The other significant challenge, is that, despite Mike Guzzo's efforts, the two youth programs are definitely not on the same page. For instance, this past season the Two Harbors Association decided to have their own Bantam team, versus having a combined team with Silver Bay. Two Harbors had so few Bantam aged kids that they tried to have at least 6 of their second year Pee Wees move up to Bantams so they could have a legitimate team. Almost every one of the parents of the Pee Wee players contacted the Duluth Amateur Hockey Association to see about playing in the East Duluth Pee Wee program. I don't believe any of them made the move. In fact, I know at least a few of them eventually did move up to Bantams. The point is, considering they co-op at the high school level and, considering the latest player development research from USA Hockey regarding how best to run proper ADM practices at the youth level, along with what each of their individual numbers are at the Pee Wee and Bantam levels, it's extremely clear they should be co-oping at the Pee Wee and Bantam levels as well. Unfortunately, there are some parents/administrators who care more about winning petty turf wars versus doing what's best for their kids. So, I wouldn't expect to see North Shore's boys' program in the top 4 of 7A for awhile.

Finally, there haven't been many kids from East or Cloquet that have open-enrolled to Hermantown over the last ten years. However, with some of the undercurrents of frustration that are currently in place at both East and Cloquet, I wouldn't rule out a few kids from either of those two programs moving over to Hermantown in the next couple years. Not saying it will definitely happen, just saying it wouldn't surprise me. Anyways, that's my attempt to explain why it's unlikely that the other Duluth area 7A schools will ever reach the consistent level of success that Hermantown has experienced the last two decades. My only caveat to that is, because of Scott Pionk's involvement -- yes, he and I are friends so I'm definitely biased -- along with their new facilities, there is a chance that Proctor could rise up and be a consistent thorn in Hermantown's side.

[Wise Old Man]

"Why don’t the other 7A teams join the other A teams in the state that aren’t bluebloods leave the MSHSL and form their own club league/state tournament?"

"Kniven", have you heard the old axiom "don't ask a question you don't already know the answer to"? So... why don't you think the other 7A teams in the state that aren't blue bloods will leave the MSHSL and form their own club league?

no..not just 7A....the entire state. every A section where they can't compete with the singleA bluebloods. i don't see a problem. i don't know why they would not

"Why don’t the other 7A teams join the other A teams in the state that aren’t bluebloods leave the MSHSL and form their own club league/state tournament?"

"Kniven", have you heard the old axiom "don't ask a question you don't already know the answer to"? So... why don't you think the other 7A teams in the state that aren't blue bloods will leave the MSHSL and form their own club league?

no..not just 7A....the entire state. every A section where they can't compete with the singleA bluebloods. i don't see a problem. i don't know why they would not

"Kniven", please go back and reread my post. I understood that in your post you rhetorically asked not just about the other 7A teams but, also any other Class A team from anywhere else in the state in regards to why they wouldn't just leave the MSHSL and go form their own league. Since you stated that you don't see a problem, I'll explain some of the "problems" that would prevent those schools from pursuing your idea.

The main reason is, the only other "league"/"governing body" you could join where you wouldn't significantly increase the costs to the parents/players would be USA Hockey. Remember Kniven, the maximum cost per player that any school charges for their athletic fee for hockey is $500. With the average being around $375. Now, at some schools there is a "booster club" fee that parents are asked to pay for as well and that varies from school to school. Plus, every high school program I'm aware of that does the booster club thing, provides families with a fund-raiser of some kind so they can avoid paying that extra money out of pocket. The point being, for the level of play and coaching that's generally available in Minnesota high school hockey, it is extremely inexpensive compared to what playing 16U Tier I/II is in almost every other area of the U.S.

In most of the better Tier I/II programs around the country, it's literally $10,000 just to get in the door! Then there are monthly assessments that can average as much as $500 per month. And remember, their season starts on Labor Day weekend and runs through the end of March or early April. The point is, those costs in a program comparable to many Minnesota varsity programs are as much as 20 times more expensive PER SEASON! Which is why the vast, vast majority of parents, not to mention ADs or coaches, would never agree to do a "Shattuck type" model even if Minnesota Hockey were to approve it. So, even if a high school were to "leave the MSHSL just for hockey" -- which, by the way, I'm not sure is even allowed -- and try to go the USA Hockey route, again, they would be governed by Minnesota Hockey and, the level that Minnesota Hockey would make you play in would be Junior Gold "A". Also, despite the fact that some of the metro Jr. Gold "A" teams -- Minnetonka, Wayzata, Edina, Eden Prairie, just to name a few -- would be very competitive with many varsity Class "A" teams, most of the parents of the players from those Class "A" schools that might consider such a move would go crazy if their school's AD or coach ever suggested it and, there would likely be a huge defection of players from the youth program within a year or two.

Next, because there are so few Jr. Gold teams in the northern half of the state -- this year, Duluth, Cloquet, and Moorhead were the only teams north of the metro and were all "B" teams, not "A" -- even if all the other teams in 7A would do the Jr. Gold route, that still only leaves 11 teams, including Moorhead, which you'd have to play in a league. Which would increase your overall costs significantly over the normal high school costs as most Jr. Gold teams play between 40-50 games per year and, at least half of those games would need to be played in tournaments in the Twin Cities. And, there are other reasons as well why high school teams would never attempt to leave the MSHSL but, these are bigger ones.

On a different but similar topic, I have argued for some years now that instead of having high school JV teams, those should be replaced by U16/Jr. Gold teams that would obviously need to be registered through Minnesota Hockey/USA Hockey. However, we would still select the U16/Jr. Gold teams based on school attendance and, have those teams act as a high school's JV team. Number one, it would reduce costs for the high school as the U16/Jr. Gold teams would be run through the local youth hockey association. To include allowing season-long roster flexibility -- at least through the week before the high school playoffs start -- so that the players from the U16/Jr. Gold team could be moved back and forth from the varsity team as needed, whether to give the varsity coach more time to figure out who his 4th line might be come playoffs or, due to sickness/injury during the season.

You could even stipulate that the high school varsity coach had to pick up to, but not more than, 6 players from both the U16 and varsity team as soon as the teams were initially selected as the players he could move between the teams during the season in order to minimize the number of players that would need to be double registered with both the Federation and USA Hockey. The other benefit is that the players on the U16/Jr. Gold teams could play double the number of games that a JV team could. Now again, the cost for a U16 team would definitely be more than playing on the high school team(s) but, as already stated, you'd get way more games and practices for that extra money. The other current challenge to this is that last summer, Minnesota Hockey -- in an effort to limit/minimize the creation of any more "Gentry type" hockey academies from forming, passed a new rule saying that moving forward, no Minnesota Hockey registered teams would be allowed to be formed strictly based on school attendance. For instance, although Duluth's youth teams were "grandfathered" in, if they were playing by the new rule they could no longer have "East End" and "Denfeld" pee wee and bantam teams. Instead, all of the teams -- whether they were "AA", "A", or "B", would have to be "all city" teams comprised of kids from both sides of town. Thus, for my "U16/Jr. Gold as the JV" idea to work, Minnesota Hockey would need to adjust the new rule so it allowed an exemption for the teams that were formed based on player attendance at a school with an MSHSL registered varsity team (thus hopefully still preventing any more "hockey academies" from forming). Again, just an idea that I've had floating around for awhile now.

"Kniven", what, no response to my explanation about why the other 7A teams, and other "A" teams from around the state don't form their own league outside of the MSHSL?

[defense]

"nu2hockey", I'm still waiting for you to answer the question I posed to you earlier about whether or not you believe Hermantown has an extremely unique advantage compared to any other Class "A" team in the state...

"defense", you keep asking when or, why can't the other Duluth area schools do what Hermantown does/attract players like Hermantown does? There are a number of reasons why Proctor, Denfeld, and North Shore aren't able to do what Hermantown has done or is currently doing, many of them fairly nuanced and involving "inside youth/high school hockey" stuff. But, I'll do my best to try and explain.

Reason one is socioeconomic in nature. Meaning, compared to Proctor, Denfeld, Cloquet, and North Shore, the demographics of Hermantown significantly skew toward the middle to upper-middle class tax brackets more than those other communities. Which, makes it easier for more of Hermantown's citizens to afford to play hockey. It's the same reason why Duluth East's numbers are always so strong. Meaning, both currently, and for the last 20 years, Hermantown's youth association has had more of its' kids playing youth hockey than any other Class "A" youth association in Section 7A for the last two decades. That means that initially, Hermantown had a slight advantage in building its' program using kids living within their own boundaries. And, to the great credit of their youth association and high school program, they did a great job developing those players and building a legitimate Class "A" program.

But then, Minnesota Hockey changed their eligibility rule so that a youth player could play at the youth association where they attend school. Even if they continue to live in their original youth hockey association's geographic boundary. By the time this rule changed (around 2008 or 09 if I recall), Hermantown had already been to state a few times and established themselves as one of the top public school Class "A" teams in the state. I say "top public school teams" because prior to Minnesota Hockey changing its' eligibility rule, only the Twin Cities metro private schools had the advantage of being able to attract/recruit top players from a large population center that didn't force kids/families to move to be immediately eligible. Which, is why Bruce Plante became so aggravated with St. Thomas Academy. His main issue with them was that they were a Twin Cities all-star team and, that they could draw so many talented kids from such a large surrounding metro area. That's actually one of my biggest issues with Hermantown not choosing to go up to "AA". Their success the last 10 years is based on the exact same advantage that Bruce used to rail on STA about. It's hypocrisy at it's absolute finest! Anyway, once Minnesota Hockey changed its' eligibility rule, Hermantown was uniquely situated -- both from the standpoint that they were already extremely successful, as well as their geographic location -- to take advantage of the rule change/situation. Or, stated more succinctly, people want to play for a "winner". By the time the youth rule changed, Proctor, Denfeld, Two Harbors, and Silver Bay (now the North Shore co-op) had been trending downward in overall numbers (high school & youth) and competitiveness for a number of years.

The other factor as to why Hermantown became THE program to migrate to in the Duluth area (even more so than Duluth East) -- especially once Minnesota Hockey changed the eligibility rule -- is that the first summer "AAA" hockey program in our area was started by a couple dads, one whose son played in the Hermantown youth program and the other who was in the East Duluth youth program but, eventually played at Marshall. Although there were a number of other Hermantown kids on those teams the first few years, there were also a number of other top kids from not only the greater Duluth/Cloquet area but, also from the Range as well. Again, once the eligibility rule had changed, Hermantown had already become a Class "A" power and, the unintended positive consequence of summer "AAA" hockey was that all of these top players evolved friendships that often resulted in some of those kids choosing to open-enroll to Hermantown. It was especially true for the Duluth area kids. Then, Hermantown came back to Section 7A and it became obvious they were going to be the prohibitive favorite to get to state every year which obviously became THE attractant for kids from outside their program.

Obviously, with Proctor opening its' new facility two years ago, along with the youth association hiring Scott Pionk as their hockey director as well as likely being the new boys high school head coach as well, their leadership is hopeful that they will get the ship turned in the right direction. I know their Mite numbers are up the last two years which is obviously a great sign.

As for Denfeld, with their coaching staff of Dale Jago, Ryan Geris, and Jake Johnson, they may have the best overall boys high school coaching staff in the Duluth area. This year's Denfeld Bantam "A" team had a solid year and had 3-4 legitimate Bantam "AA" level players on it. But, they also had 3-4 legitimate Bantam "B" level players as well and, to the coach's credit, he played the whole roster pretty equally throughout the season so, the Denfeld high school program should only improve, at least for the next two years.

Unfortunately for the North Shore co-op between Two Harbors and Silver Bay, long-time boys and girls coach, Mike Guzzo, just retired after a tremendous career and there is absolutely no one who has put his heart and soul into first, the Silver Bay boys program, but then the co-op program as well. He has also been an integral part of the Silver Bay youth program as well and, his unrivaled passion for "his" kids will be missed. The other significant challenge, is that, despite Mike Guzzo's efforts, the two youth programs are definitely not on the same page. For instance, this past season the Two Harbors Association decided to have their own Bantam team, versus having a combined team with Silver Bay. Two Harbors had so few Bantam aged kids that they tried to have at least 6 of their second year Pee Wees move up to Bantams so they could have a legitimate team. Almost every one of the parents of the Pee Wee players contacted the Duluth Amateur Hockey Association to see about playing in the East Duluth Pee Wee program. I don't believe any of them made the move. In fact, I know at least a few of them eventually did move up to Bantams. The point is, considering they co-op at the high school level and, considering the latest player development research from USA Hockey regarding how best to run proper ADM practices at the youth level, along with what each of their individual numbers are at the Pee Wee and Bantam levels, it's extremely clear they should be co-oping at the Pee Wee and Bantam levels as well. Unfortunately, there are some parents/administrators who care more about winning petty turf wars versus doing what's best for their kids. So, I wouldn't expect to see North Shore's boys' program in the top 4 of 7A for awhile.

Finally, there haven't been many kids from East or Cloquet that have open-enrolled to Hermantown over the last ten years. However, with some of the undercurrents of frustration that are currently in place at both East and Cloquet, I wouldn't rule out a few kids from either of those two programs moving over to Hermantown in the next couple years. Not saying it will definitely happen, just saying it wouldn't surprise me. Anyways, that's my attempt to explain why it's unlikely that the other Duluth area 7A schools will ever reach the consistent level of success that Hermantown has experienced the last two decades. My only caveat to that is, because of Scott Pionk's involvement -- yes, he and I are friends so I'm definitely biased -- along with their new facilities, there is a chance that Proctor could rise up and be a consistent thorn in Hermantown's side.

Thank you for a direct response. I did not see any accusations or finger pointing, only facts and reasoning. Your stance seems to only be that they are so successful that they should go AA. I respect that even if I do not totally agree. I am still under the opinion that class A hockey has evolved into a different and better league than it used to be, this includes these "AA" teams playing in class A. Reasons: better quality hockey, high level of competition, better interest than before, and finally we cannot move a successful team out of the league just because they win...integrity of the league. this type of model did not work ( though it only was tried for two years) .

[defense]

I also don't buy it when this AA vs A is compared to D1 vs D3 argument, not the same situations, not apples to oranges. Division levels in college have more to do with money, scholarships etc.. any team could switch d1 to d3 or vice versa, but they will not compete until they are truly a d1 or d3 which takes years to accomplish. The Bulldogs today would not be the same Bulldogs in D3. College sports do not work that way either.

[Hunters1993]

I’ll contend that money is a big part of Hermantowns success. Money in their community and school district. The money that keeps flowing into the district with each transfer. The school district also has an above average wealth. And for scholarships isn’t that what someone mentioned earlier was why kids went to Hermantown. To get scholarships for college? So why is it different again? University of Minnesota has broken no rules and continues t o bebthe top of the hill in D1. University of Minnesota can’t get past them. Maybe University of Minnesota should go down to D3 so they can completely do
I ate the hill. Get their yearly trip to a C-chip and collect trophies for the next ten years like Hermantown. But they won’t you know why. Integrity!

[Hunters1993]

"nu2hockey", I'm still waiting for you to answer the question I posed to you earlier about whether or not you believe Hermantown has an extremely unique advantage compared to any other Class "A" team in the state...

"defense", you keep asking when or, why can't the other Duluth area schools do what Hermantown does/attract players like Hermantown does? There are a number of reasons why Proctor, Denfeld, and North Shore aren't able to do what Hermantown has done or is currently doing, many of them fairly nuanced and involving "inside youth/high school hockey" stuff. But, I'll do my best to try and explain.

Reason one is socioeconomic in nature. Meaning, compared to Proctor, Denfeld, Cloquet, and North Shore, the demographics of Hermantown significantly skew toward the middle to upper-middle class tax brackets more than those other communities. Which, makes it easier for more of Hermantown's citizens to afford to play hockey. It's the same reason why Duluth East's numbers are always so strong. Meaning, both currently, and for the last 20 years, Hermantown's youth association has had more of its' kids playing youth hockey than any other Class "A" youth association in Section 7A for the last two decades. That means that initially, Hermantown had a slight advantage in building its' program using kids living within their own boundaries. And, to the great credit of their youth association and high school program, they did a great job developing those players and building a legitimate Class "A" program.

But then, Minnesota Hockey changed their eligibility rule so that a youth player could play at the youth association where they attend school. Even if they continue to live in their original youth hockey association's geographic boundary. By the time this rule changed (around 2008 or 09 if I recall), Hermantown had already been to state a few times and established themselves as one of the top public school Class "A" teams in the state. I say "top public school teams" because prior to Minnesota Hockey changing its' eligibility rule, only the Twin Cities metro private schools had the advantage of being able to attract/recruit top players from a large population center that didn't force kids/families to move to be immediately eligible. Which, is why Bruce Plante became so aggravated with St. Thomas Academy. His main issue with them was that they were a Twin Cities all-star team and, that they could draw so many talented kids from such a large surrounding metro area. That's actually one of my biggest issues with Hermantown not choosing to go up to "AA". Their success the last 10 years is based on the exact same advantage that Bruce used to rail on STA about. It's hypocrisy at it's absolute finest! Anyway, once Minnesota Hockey changed its' eligibility rule, Hermantown was uniquely situated -- both from the standpoint that they were already extremely successful, as well as their geographic location -- to take advantage of the rule change/situation. Or, stated more succinctly, people want to play for a "winner". By the time the youth rule changed, Proctor, Denfeld, Two Harbors, and Silver Bay (now the North Shore co-op) had been trending downward in overall numbers (high school & youth) and competitiveness for a number of years.

The other factor as to why Hermantown became THE program to migrate to in the Duluth area (even more so than Duluth East) -- especially once Minnesota Hockey changed the eligibility rule -- is that the first summer "AAA" hockey program in our area was started by a couple dads, one whose son played in the Hermantown youth program and the other who was in the East Duluth youth program but, eventually played at Marshall. Although there were a number of other Hermantown kids on those teams the first few years, there were also a number of other top kids from not only the greater Duluth/Cloquet area but, also from the Range as well. Again, once the eligibility rule had changed, Hermantown had already become a Class "A" power and, the unintended positive consequence of summer "AAA" hockey was that all of these top players evolved friendships that often resulted in some of those kids choosing to open-enroll to Hermantown. It was especially true for the Duluth area kids. Then, Hermantown came back to Section 7A and it became obvious they were going to be the prohibitive favorite to get to state every year which obviously became THE attractant for kids from outside their program.

Obviously, with Proctor opening its' new facility two years ago, along with the youth association hiring Scott Pionk as their hockey director as well as likely being the new boys high school head coach as well, their leadership is hopeful that they will get the ship turned in the right direction. I know their Mite numbers are up the last two years which is obviously a great sign.

As for Denfeld, with their coaching staff of Dale Jago, Ryan Geris, and Jake Johnson, they may have the best overall boys high school coaching staff in the Duluth area. This year's Denfeld Bantam "A" team had a solid year and had 3-4 legitimate Bantam "AA" level players on it. But, they also had 3-4 legitimate Bantam "B" level players as well and, to the coach's credit, he played the whole roster pretty equally throughout the season so, the Denfeld high school program should only improve, at least for the next two years.

Unfortunately for the North Shore co-op between Two Harbors and Silver Bay, long-time boys and girls coach, Mike Guzzo, just retired after a tremendous career and there is absolutely no one who has put his heart and soul into first, the Silver Bay boys program, but then the co-op program as well. He has also been an integral part of the Silver Bay youth program as well and, his unrivaled passion for "his" kids will be missed. The other significant challenge, is that, despite Mike Guzzo's efforts, the two youth programs are definitely not on the same page. For instance, this past season the Two Harbors Association decided to have their own Bantam team, versus having a combined team with Silver Bay. Two Harbors had so few Bantam aged kids that they tried to have at least 6 of their second year Pee Wees move up to Bantams so they could have a legitimate team. Almost every one of the parents of the Pee Wee players contacted the Duluth Amateur Hockey Association to see about playing in the East Duluth Pee Wee program. I don't believe any of them made the move. In fact, I know at least a few of them eventually did move up to Bantams. The point is, considering they co-op at the high school level and, considering the latest player development research from USA Hockey regarding how best to run proper ADM practices at the youth level, along with what each of their individual numbers are at the Pee Wee and Bantam levels, it's extremely clear they should be co-oping at the Pee Wee and Bantam levels as well. Unfortunately, there are some parents/administrators who care more about winning petty turf wars versus doing what's best for their kids. So, I wouldn't expect to see North Shore's boys' program in the top 4 of 7A for awhile.

Finally, there haven't been many kids from East or Cloquet that have open-enrolled to Hermantown over the last ten years. However, with some of the undercurrents of frustration that are currently in place at both East and Cloquet, I wouldn't rule out a few kids from either of those two programs moving over to Hermantown in the next couple years. Not saying it will definitely happen, just saying it wouldn't surprise me. Anyways, that's my attempt to explain why it's unlikely that the other Duluth area 7A schools will ever reach the consistent level of success that Hermantown has experienced the last two decades. My only caveat to that is, because of Scott Pionk's involvement -- yes, he and I are friends so I'm definitely biased -- along with their new facilities, there is a chance that Proctor could rise up and be a consistent thorn in Hermantown's side.

Thank you for a direct response. I did not see any accusations or finger pointing, only facts and reasoning. Your stance seems to only be that they are so successful that they should go AA. I respect that even if I do not totally agree. I am still under the opinion that class A hockey has evolved into a different and better league than it used to be, this includes these "AA" teams playing in class A. Reasons: better quality hockey, high level of competition, better interest than before, and finally we cannot move a successful team out of the league just because they win...integrity of the league. this type of model did not work ( though it only was tried for two years) .

There is only one class AA team playing class A hockey. The moving only because they win 9 out of 11 years make c-chip game is a very good reason for moving to class AA. No other reason needed. Why wouldn’t you move to class AA after dominating class A for 11 years now. Will it take 20 years of domination before Hermantown will submit to trying class AA. Why would you stay in class A? You have dominated that hill for so long. Don’t you want to try to dominate class AA hill. Wouldn’t that be unbelievable to take the class AA hill and make a run of four or five years to the X and try to take home a c-chip?

[defense]

I’ll contend that money is a big part of Hermantowns success. Money in their community and school district. The money that keeps flowing into the district with each transfer. The school district also has an above average wealth. And for scholarships isn’t that what someone mentioned earlier was why kids went to Hermantown. To get scholarships for college? So why is it different again? University of Minnesota has broken no rules and continues t o bebthe top of the hill in D1. University of Minnesota can’t get past them. Maybe University of Minnesota should go down to D3 so they can completely do
I ate the hill. Get their yearly trip to a C-chip and collect trophies for the next ten years like Hermantown. But they won’t you know why. Integrity!

Here is the thing: Gophers would not compete for a championship in D3 until they were a D3 team. They do have a club team too btw...doesnt dominate, only competes. These two situations are not apples and apples. It is like saying the Bison should move to FBS because they are so dominant... they are a FCS team who is doing it better, they are not cheating, they are just better. If they moved to FBS they would be an FCS team in FBS rules. Same idea as why the Ivy leaguers do not compete in post season.... apples to oranges.
Class A hockey has zero rules differences to AA accept enrollment... that is it. Enrollment. No money, no scholarships none. Just enrollment. No location rules.
Enrollment. In the past 10 years or so, class A has become a very highly competitive league. Only thing it does not have is the monster size schools. Who won AA this year? Not a monster size school. In fact it was a school who may or may not have won the class A tournement. Why keep avoiding the point: class A is not meant as a B league.

[Slap Shot]

"Why don’t the other 7A teams join the other A teams in the state that aren’t bluebloods leave the MSHSL and form their own club league/state tournament?"

"Kniven", have you heard the old axiom "don't ask a question you don't already know the answer to"? So... why don't you think the other 7A teams in the state that aren't blue bloods will leave the MSHSL and form their own club league?

no..not just 7A....the entire state. every A section where they can't compete with the singleA bluebloods. i don't see a problem. i don't know why they would not

"Why don’t the other 7A teams join the other A teams in the state that aren’t bluebloods leave the MSHSL and form their own club league/state tournament?"

"Kniven", have you heard the old axiom "don't ask a question you don't already know the answer to"? So... why don't you think the other 7A teams in the state that aren't blue bloods will leave the MSHSL and form their own club league?

no..not just 7A....the entire state. every A section where they can't compete with the singleA bluebloods. i don't see a problem. i don't know why they would not

"Kniven", please go back and reread my post. I understood that in your post you rhetorically asked not just about the other 7A teams but, also any other Class A team from anywhere else in the state in regards to why they wouldn't just leave the MSHSL and go form their own league. Since you stated that you don't see a problem, I'll explain some of the "problems" that would prevent those schools from pursuing your idea.

The main reason is, the only other "league"/"governing body" you could join where you wouldn't significantly increase the costs to the parents/players would be USA Hockey. Remember Kniven, the maximum cost per player that any school charges for their athletic fee for hockey is $500. With the average being around $375. Now, at some schools there is a "booster club" fee that parents are asked to pay for as well and that varies from school to school. Plus, every high school program I'm aware of that does the booster club thing, provides families with a fund-raiser of some kind so they can avoid paying that extra money out of pocket. The point being, for the level of play and coaching that's generally available in Minnesota high school hockey, it is extremely inexpensive compared to what playing 16U Tier I/II is in almost every other area of the U.S.

In most of the better Tier I/II programs around the country, it's literally $10,000 just to get in the door! Then there are monthly assessments that can average as much as $500 per month. And remember, their season starts on Labor Day weekend and runs through the end of March or early April. The point is, those costs in a program comparable to many Minnesota varsity programs are as much as 20 times more expensive PER SEASON! Which is why the vast, vast majority of parents, not to mention ADs or coaches, would never agree to do a "Shattuck type" model even if Minnesota Hockey were to approve it. So, even if a high school were to "leave the MSHSL just for hockey" -- which, by the way, I'm not sure is even allowed -- and try to go the USA Hockey route, again, they would be governed by Minnesota Hockey and, the level that Minnesota Hockey would make you play in would be Junior Gold "A". Also, despite the fact that some of the metro Jr. Gold "A" teams -- Minnetonka, Wayzata, Edina, Eden Prairie, just to name a few -- would be very competitive with many varsity Class "A" teams, most of the parents of the players from those Class "A" schools that might consider such a move would go crazy if their school's AD or coach ever suggested it and, there would likely be a huge defection of players from the youth program within a year or two.

Next, because there are so few Jr. Gold teams in the northern half of the state -- this year, Duluth, Cloquet, and Moorhead were the only teams north of the metro and were all "B" teams, not "A" -- even if all the other teams in 7A would do the Jr. Gold route, that still only leaves 11 teams, including Moorhead, which you'd have to play in a league. Which would increase your overall costs significantly over the normal high school costs as most Jr. Gold teams play between 40-50 games per year and, at least half of those games would need to be played in tournaments in the Twin Cities. And, there are other reasons as well why high school teams would never attempt to leave the MSHSL but, these are bigger ones.

On a different but similar topic, I have argued for some years now that instead of having high school JV teams, those should be replaced by U16/Jr. Gold teams that would obviously need to be registered through Minnesota Hockey/USA Hockey. However, we would still select the U16/Jr. Gold teams based on school attendance and, have those teams act as a high school's JV team. Number one, it would reduce costs for the high school as the U16/Jr. Gold teams would be run through the local youth hockey association. To include allowing season-long roster flexibility -- at least through the week before the high school playoffs start -- so that the players from the U16/Jr. Gold team could be moved back and forth from the varsity team as needed, whether to give the varsity coach more time to figure out who his 4th line might be come playoffs or, due to sickness/injury during the season.

You could even stipulate that the high school varsity coach had to pick up to, but not more than, 6 players from both the U16 and varsity team as soon as the teams were initially selected as the players he could move between the teams during the season in order to minimize the number of players that would need to be double registered with both the Federation and USA Hockey. The other benefit is that the players on the U16/Jr. Gold teams could play double the number of games that a JV team could. Now again, the cost for a U16 team would definitely be more than playing on the high school team(s) but, as already stated, you'd get way more games and practices for that extra money. The other current challenge to this is that last summer, Minnesota Hockey -- in an effort to limit/minimize the creation of any more "Gentry type" hockey academies from forming, passed a new rule saying that moving forward, no Minnesota Hockey registered teams would be allowed to be formed strictly based on school attendance. For instance, although Duluth's youth teams were "grandfathered" in, if they were playing by the new rule they could no longer have "East End" and "Denfeld" pee wee and bantam teams. Instead, all of the teams -- whether they were "AA", "A", or "B", would have to be "all city" teams comprised of kids from both sides of town. Thus, for my "U16/Jr. Gold as the JV" idea to work, Minnesota Hockey would need to adjust the new rule so it allowed an exemption for the teams that were formed based on player attendance at a school with an MSHSL registered varsity team (thus hopefully still preventing any more "hockey academies" from forming). Again, just an idea that I've had floating around for awhile now.

Well said and of course ignored.

[Hunters1993]

I’ll contend that money is a big part of Hermantowns success. Money in their community and school district. The money that keeps flowing into the district with each transfer. The school district also has an above average wealth. And for scholarships isn’t that what someone mentioned earlier was why kids went to Hermantown. To get scholarships for college? So why is it different again? University of Minnesota has broken no rules and continues t o bebthe top of the hill in D1. University of Minnesota can’t get past them. Maybe University of Minnesota should go down to D3 so they can completely do
I ate the hill. Get their yearly trip to a C-chip and collect trophies for the next ten years like Hermantown. But they won’t you know why. Integrity!

Here is the thing: Gophers would not compete for a championship in D3 until they were a D3 team. They do have a club team too btw...doesnt dominate, only competes. These two situations are not apples and apples. It is like saying the Bison should move to FBS because they are so dominant... they are a FCS team who is doing it better, they are not cheating, they are just better. If they moved to FBS they would be an FCS team in FBS rules. Same idea as why the Ivy leaguers do not compete in post season.... apples to oranges.
Class A hockey has zero rules differences to AA accept enrollment... that is it. Enrollment. No money, no scholarships none. Just enrollment. No location rules.
Enrollment. In the past 10 years or so, class A has become a very highly competitive league. Only thing it does not have is the monster size schools. Who won AA this year? Not a monster size school. In fact it was a school who may or may not have won the class A tournement. Why keep avoiding the point: class A is not meant as a B league.

How many c-Chip game trips will it take to move to class AA? 10,20, more. You will be in the next five or six. Will that be enough? 14 out of 16? 16 out of 18, 18 out of 20? How many will be enough to move to class AA? You have dominated class A. How many before you will be satisfied?

[Hunters1993]

I’ll contend that money is a big part of Hermantowns success. Money in their community and school district. The money that keeps flowing into the district with each transfer. The school district also has an above average wealth. And for scholarships isn’t that what someone mentioned earlier was why kids went to Hermantown. To get scholarships for college? So why is it different again? University of Minnesota has broken no rules and continues t o bebthe top of the hill in D1. University of Minnesota can’t get past them. Maybe University of Minnesota should go down to D3 so they can completely do
I ate the hill. Get their yearly trip to a C-chip and collect trophies for the next ten years like Hermantown. But they won’t you know why. Integrity!

Here is the thing: Gophers would not compete for a championship in D3 until they were a D3 team. They do have a club team too btw...doesnt dominate, only competes. These two situations are not apples and apples. It is like saying the Bison should move to FBS because they are so dominant... they are a FCS team who is doing it better, they are not cheating, they are just better. If they moved to FBS they would be an FCS team in FBS rules. Same idea as why the Ivy leaguers do not compete in post season.... apples to oranges.
Class A hockey has zero rules differences to AA accept enrollment... that is it. Enrollment. No money, no scholarships none. Just enrollment. No location rules.
Enrollment. In the past 10 years or so, class A has become a very highly competitive league. Only thing it does not have is the monster size schools. Who won AA this year? Not a monster size school. In fact it was a school who may or may not have won the class A tournement. Why keep avoiding the point: class A is not meant as a B league.

So what is stopping Hermantown from moving then? If it is all similar. Except the fact that you play Edina’s, Hill Murray, Moorhead, Blaine in the big tourney and beat them instead of Mankato East, Hutchinson, Luverne, etc. you know you can compete against them, you do durning the season.

[Hunters1993]

I’ll contend that money is a big part of Hermantowns success. Money in their community and school district. The money that keeps flowing into the district with each transfer. The school district also has an above average wealth. And for scholarships isn’t that what someone mentioned earlier was why kids went to Hermantown. To get scholarships for college? So why is it different again? University of Minnesota has broken no rules and continues t o bebthe top of the hill in D1. University of Minnesota can’t get past them. Maybe University of Minnesota should go down to D3 so they can completely do
I ate the hill. Get their yearly trip to a C-chip and collect trophies for the next ten years like Hermantown. But they won’t you know why. Integrity!

Here is the thing: Gophers would not compete for a championship in D3 until they were a D3 team. They do have a club team too btw...doesnt dominate, only competes. These two situations are not apples and apples. It is like saying the Bison should move to FBS because they are so dominant... they are a FCS team who is doing it better, they are not cheating, they are just better. If they moved to FBS they would be an FCS team in FBS rules. Same idea as why the Ivy leaguers do not compete in post season.... apples to oranges.
Class A hockey has zero rules differences to AA accept enrollment... that is it. Enrollment. No money, no scholarships none. Just enrollment. No location rules.
Enrollment. In the past 10 years or so, class A has become a very highly competitive league. Only thing it does not have is the monster size schools. Who won AA this year? Not a monster size school. In fact it was a school who may or may not have won the class A tournement. Why keep avoiding the point: class A is not meant as a B league.

It is not a B league. Correct I agree 100%. But it is not the place for a team with a resume like Hermantowns

9 out of 11 c-chip games
8 straight c-chip games
Talent rolling in from all over section 7

Be proud of your resume and move up to where you belong!

[defense]

I’ll contend that money is a big part of Hermantowns success. Money in their community and school district. The money that keeps flowing into the district with each transfer. The school district also has an above average wealth. And for scholarships isn’t that what someone mentioned earlier was why kids went to Hermantown. To get scholarships for college? So why is it different again? University of Minnesota has broken no rules and continues t o bebthe top of the hill in D1. University of Minnesota can’t get past them. Maybe University of Minnesota should go down to D3 so they can completely do
I ate the hill. Get their yearly trip to a C-chip and collect trophies for the next ten years like Hermantown. But they won’t you know why. Integrity!

Here is the thing: Gophers would not compete for a championship in D3 until they were a D3 team. They do have a club team too btw...doesnt dominate, only competes. These two situations are not apples and apples. It is like saying the Bison should move to FBS because they are so dominant... they are a FCS team who is doing it better, they are not cheating, they are just better. If they moved to FBS they would be an FCS team in FBS rules. Same idea as why the Ivy leaguers do not compete in post season.... apples to oranges.
Class A hockey has zero rules differences to AA accept enrollment... that is it. Enrollment. No money, no scholarships none. Just enrollment. No location rules.
Enrollment. In the past 10 years or so, class A has become a very highly competitive league. Only thing it does not have is the monster size schools. Who won AA this year? Not a monster size school. In fact it was a school who may or may not have won the class A tournement. Why keep avoiding the point: class A is not meant as a B league.

It is not a B league. Correct I agree 100%. But it is not the place for a team with a resume like Hermantowns

9 out of 11 c-chip games
8 straight c-chip games
Talent rolling in from all over section 7

Be proud of your resume and move up to where you belong!

Ok, just humor me for a minute. If they re drew the class A sections similar to AA ( not saying they should) but if they did and had more balance in the sections, would class A be much less difficult than AA? Give it an honest thought. The tougher A sections really aren't that different than AA imo.

[Hunters1993]

You are a 100% wrong. Class AA overall is more difficult, much more. There is less depth in class A. You will never convince me that class A is just as difficult to compete in. Look at your resume listed above and answer me this, how many c-chip games will it take before Hermantown will submit to class A, 10,20,30? If you make 14 out of 16, 16 out of 18, 18 out of 20. Then would you agree you belong in class AA?

When was the last time Hermantown lost to a class A team during the regular season?

[defense]

You are a 100% wrong. Class AA overall is more difficult, much more. There is less depth in class A. You will never convince me that class A is just as difficult to compete in. Look at your resume listed above and answer me this, how many c-chip games will it take before Hermantown will submit to class A, 10,20,30? If you make 14 out of 16, 16 out of 18, 18 out of 20. Then would you agree you belong in class AA?

When was the last time Hermantown lost to a class A team during the regular season?

Accept for the top 2, how does 7aa compare? I know in 8aa, 8a is similar. Deep in teams? Or deep teams themselves?

[Wise Old Man]

First (and again) to "nu2hockey": you still haven't answered my question about whether or not you agree that Hermantown has a distinct advantage that no other Class "A" team has in our state? I await your response...

"defense", you're simply flat out wrong regarding your opinion about the "A" teams being as competitive as the "AA" if we just redrew the sections in Class "A". Also, to be clear, the initial rationale for the MSHSL moving to a two class system was to provide the opportunity for teams that literally had no chance to make it to state in a single class system to get there. At the moment, outside of Greenway's upset in 2019, Hermantown has been to the state tournament 10 of the last 11 years!! And, they've reached the championship game 9 of those 10 years as well as an 11th championship game in the last 14 years!! In Section 7A, the MSHSL's goal of giving schools who'd normally never have a shot to get to state in a one-class system is failing miserably because we have a school who would be ranked in the top 5 of "AA" in almost every year the last 15 seasons continuing to play in Class "A". Despite the fact that a majority of their regular season games are against not just any "AA" teams but the TOP "AA" teams. Along with all of their top youth teams in Pee Wee and Bantams playing in "AA" as well.

"Defense", you made another comment/argument a few posts back about the fact Hermantown had only won two championships in their most recent run. My response to that is, that's not how most truly knowledgeable hockey people measure Hermantown's success. Trust me, for the vast majority of the programs in our state, just getting to state is the main goal. Mainly because, for every other program besides Hermantown -- including even East and Edina -- it's a rare enough occurrence that just getting there means so much to the average program. AND, it provides a significant boost to the energy and interest in that community's youth program. That's why you need to judge Hermantown on the number of state tournament appearances, versus how many championships they've won.

"hunters", although the Hermantown school district certainly gains financially from every transfer, I wouldn't focus so much on that in your argument. For myself and people like Scott Pionk, this is all about doing what's best for the game. We understand how much Hermantown's selfishness and desire to "tourney chase" -- I wouldn't even call it "trophy chasing" as just getting there almost every year is what's motivating players from outside their youth and high school programs to open-enroll there -- is what is destroying the other 7A teams piece by piece right in front of our eyes. Again, Minnesota Hockey is just as, if not even more responsible for the monster Hermantown has become so we need to work on that at the same time as well.

[Doc Holliday]

Would it ever be possible for the MSHSL & Minnesota Hockey to come to a combined decision regarding level of play in terms of AA & A?

If you play at the AA level in youth, you must play at the AA level for MSHSL?
You are allowed to play at the A level in youth and opt up to the AA level for MSHSL, but the reverse is not allowed....

Would this ever be a realistic possibility?

Hermantown has a lot of advantages, but this seems to be one of the main issues that seems completely within their control.

[Hunters1993]

You are a 100% wrong. Class AA overall is more difficult, much more. There is less depth in class A. You will never convince me that class A is just as difficult to compete in. Look at your resume listed above and answer me this, how many c-chip games will it take before Hermantown will submit to class A, 10,20,30? If you make 14 out of 16, 16 out of 18, 18 out of 20. Then would you agree you belong in class AA?

When was the last time Hermantown lost to a class A team during the regular season?

Accept for the top 2, how does 7aa compare? I know in 8aa, 8a is similar. Deep in teams? Or deep teams themselves?

Still haven’t answered my question defense. How many will it take 20,30? How long do you need to be on top of the class A hill before Hermantown will submit to class AA hockey?

Deep individual teams. Hermantown has two lines tgat would be first lines anywhere else in class A, no other program had that in class A. How many class A c-chip games before you would move up?

[Hunters1993]

. But it is not the place for a team with a resume like Hermantowns

9 out of 11 c-chip games
8 straight c-chip games
Talent rolling in from all over section 7

Be proud of your resume and move up to where you belong!

[Hunters1993]

Here is the point. Hermantown has climbed to the top of this class A mountain 2 times in 11 years. Have comb one step from the top 8 times. The other times they got very close to the top! What is left to prove on this class A mountain? Nothing!

The only proof here is that Hermantown is a 7a problem...9 out 11 times someone else wins state.......the best route here is for the other 7a schools to drop to junior gold since all the forum crybabies feel they can't compete...

your buzzword phrases:integrity, donkey ride...used numerous times..

suck it up buttercup or have your team(s) drop to junior gold.
.

With the resume Hermantown has what I’d there left to prove in class A hockey

9 out of 11 c-chip games
8 straight c-chip games
Talent rolling in from all over section 7

Be proud of your resume and move up to where you belong!

[defense]

You are a 100% wrong. Class AA overall is more difficult, much more. There is less depth in class A. You will never convince me that class A is just as difficult to compete in. Look at your resume listed above and answer me this, how many c-chip games will it take before Hermantown will submit to class A, 10,20,30? If you make 14 out of 16, 16 out of 18, 18 out of 20. Then would you agree you belong in class AA?

When was the last time Hermantown lost to a class A team during the regular season?

Accept for the top 2, how does 7aa compare? I know in 8aa, 8a is similar. Deep in teams? Or deep teams themselves?

Still haven’t answered my question defense. How many will it take 20,30? How long do you need to be on top of the class A hill before Hermantown will submit to class AA hockey?

Deep individual teams. Hermantown has two lines tgat would be first lines anywhere else in class A, no other program had that in class A. How many class A c-chip games before you would move up?

As a class A fan, Hermantown can win all they want. What I want is someone to beat them. If I was a Hermantown fan, I would want them to go 5 years ago.

[Hunters1993]

And that is why class A hockey is dead! They will continue to make C-chips for 10 out of 12, 11 out of 13, 12 out of 14, and 13 out of 15. Kids will continue to hop on this old ugly donkey(hawk) so they can go to the X. And no one will beat them and they will triumph stand on top of that class A hill screaming saying we are the best hockey program in the state. No one can beat OUR LITTLE COMMUNITY HOCKEY TEAM. And they will collect the c-chips for many years. Hockey in the range towns up north will continue to die out. Congratulations Hermantown hockey.

RIP range hockey

ELY hockey
Virginia hockey( now cooping with Eveleth)
Eveleth hockey
North Shore Hockey
Greenway hockey

[defense]

Tell me. I don't know. Almost lost to SCC this year I guess. What i hear is they don't really play a lot of them.

[Hunters1993]

Last time they lost in regular season to clsss A? take a look on my hockey hub.

Hint 2013.........

[Hunters1993]

And that is why class A hockey is dead! They will continue to make C-chips for 10 out of 12, 11 out of 13, 12 out of 14, and 13 out of 15. Kids will continue to hop on this old ugly donkey(hawk) so they can go to the X. And no one will beat them and they will triumph stand on top of that class A hill screaming saying we are the best hockey program in the state. No one can beat OUR LITTLE COMMUNITY HOCKEY TEAM. And they will collect the c-chips for many years. Hockey in the range towns up north will continue to die out. Congratulations Hermantown hockey.

RIP range hockey programs

ELY hockey
Virginia hockey( now cooping with Eveleth)
Eveleth hockey
North Shore Hockey
Greenway hockey