The Hermantown Thread

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Jeffy95
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Jeffy95 » Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:11 pm

Hunters1993 wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:36 pm
Stated by poster previously.

I’m not wining. I’m jealous that kids grow up in other youth programs dreaming of playing for Hermantown. It’s just a fact. Hermantown isn’t going anywhere. No reason too.


The misperception that Hermantown fans and others from other programs aren’t getting from this whole thing.

NONHERMANTOWN parents are not jealous of Hermantown hockey program!!!!!!!! They are not jealous of the youth programs, Not jealous of the coaching staff, not jealous of the kids that lose spots when the get to play Hermantown hockey. They see a free ride to the state tourney and a chance to play for a c-chip almost every year. Hermantown is just the old ugly donkey(Hawk) that these parents see as the transport to get them there. They see an all star team and are honored to be asked to play on this all star team and jump at the chance to play on an all star team all the way to the X.

I’ll tell you what they probably are jealous of. The kids who get to play their whole hockey career with the same kids. Jealous of those who get to have the same coaching program all the way through. Jealous of succeeding with the same kids. Not nessacarily making it to the x but improving together, going through losses together, winning rival games together, ending seasons and sharing sorrows together. That is what kids should be jealous of!

Stay in school or better yet stay in your school!
No, they want the guaranteed trip to the X. They don’t care about that other stuff. It’s the world we’re living in. As long as Pat Andrews sends the message that if you’re a good player and you come here, I will cut lifelong Hermantown kids and put you on the top line, it’s not gonna change. It is what it is. My advice is to steer your grandkids to a different sport. That’s what I’m doing with mine.

kniven
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by kniven » Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:22 pm

I totally agree. Boys hockey is a nightmare, really. It has gotten to complicated and the coaches and what they go through with parents and etc. girls hockey is much cleaner and less complicated.

I do sill love boys high school hockey and youth boys the best. It’s just complicated. I keep my focus on the kids though and that helps a lot :)
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PuckOff
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by PuckOff » Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:20 am

Hunters1993 wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:34 pm
Here are the players who would be on roster with stats from 2019.
Name-goals-assists
Blake Biondi 37-39
Aaron Pionk 9-20
Adyn Dowd. 12-5
Jackson Lucia. 2-11
Beau Janzig. 4-5
Matt Erickson 4-4
Caden Sunde 4-3

Goalie
David Rutka
At what age is it acceptable for a family to move to a community and be considered as being "from" there? Do they have to be born there? Start playing youth hockey there? I agree that players coming from other HS teams aren't "community" players. And kids coming in as Jr & Sr is bad. But where do you draw the line of what is considered a community based player? And if you apply that same criteria to other schools, how many transfer/ moved ins do other A teams have?

Hunters1993
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Hunters1993 » Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:22 am

Great questions. I don’t have all the answers.

But there was a list posted back on phone 49 I think that had a pretty solid story for nine of the kids. Can you refute anything said on that post.

Open enroll and never moved?

Chasing a A class(little boy trophy)

Recruited to fill need at goalie.

Parents of Hermantown kids recruiting for need.

AD and coach aware that rule being Brocken but let it ride.


Those all sound pretty fishy...........

Like I said before no one is jealous of Hermantown hockeys program. All theses kids see is a old, ugly, donkey(hawk) that can get them to the x to play for a c-chip. Sorry that’s what’s happening Hawk community. Enjoy your new arena, new facilities that are being built because the old, ugly donkey will get the kids to where they want to go!
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Hunters1993
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Hunters1993 » Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:24 am

Sorry Hermantown community. No one is jealous of your community hockey. They just want the free ride. Hope you guys are aware of this!
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Wise Old Man
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Wise Old Man » Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:17 pm

"PuckOff", this is just my personal opinion but, specifically regarding youth level players, my definition of a player who is considered an "original" part of any "hockey community", is one that either starts their youth "career" in that community or, that of a family who chooses to physically move into that community to play at any point in their "youth career". Any kid/family who chooses to open-enroll into a different community but, continues to live in the community they started playing youth hockey in, should never be considered as a player "from the community" they open-enrolled into. I don't care if they only played one year of Mites before moving in. Heck, I don't care if they never actually played for the youth association of the area they live in.

Example: if the parents of a kid who would normally go to school in Proctor, decide to open-enroll their son or daughter into Hermantown as a kindergartner AND starts playing youth hockey in Hermantown's youth association as a first year Mite player, I will still NEVER consider that player as being "from Hermantown" because that player's family didn't have to physically move into the Hermantown boundary. Now, can I accept the argument that a player who open-enrolls to Hermantown as a Kindergartner and starts his youth "career" at Hermantown is slightly less egregious than a player who plays a few years in his "home" youth association but then open-enrolls to Hermantown after his parents see he might be an advanced player for his age group? Sure, I can accept that. I'm still never going to consider that player as being from Hermantown. As for high school players that open-enroll at Hermantown after the start of their 9th grade year but whose families actually move into Hermantown? I'll never criticize those folks as they're playing according to the rules set forth by the MSHSL.

The ability of parents to open-enroll their child/parents to Hermantown without having to physically move into the Hermantown school boundary, gets to the heart of the distinct advantage that Hermantown has compared to any other non-metro Class "A" team. The only reason the vast, vast majority of these parents are able to open-enroll into Hermantown and play youth hockey there after starting in a different youth association is the fact it's less than a 30 minute drive to get to Hermantown. Versus having to go through the obviously far more challenging process of actually moving into the Hermantown boundary. The reason I separate the two situations is that the original rule at both the youth and high school levels required a family to physically move into the new school district/youth association's boundary to be immediately eligible for either the varsity (at high school) or highest level team (youth hockey). And, the fact that their are 6 different high schools/youth associations in a metro area of 150,000 people within a 30 minute drive of Hermantown is what gives them the unique advantage they have compared to any other non-Twin Cities area, Class "A" program.

Again, I'll emphasize that between 2013 and 2017, about 20-25 youth hockey players chose to open-enroll to Hermantown's schools -- mainly from Proctor and Duluth's youth hockey associations -- and, obviously, play in Hermantown's youth hockey association. And, that only ONE family of those youth players actually moved into Hermantown. The rest continued to live where they were and just do the 5-30 minute daily commute to Hermantown. The most glaring example of how this affected Hermantown's youth teams was when half of their 12 player Squirt "A" team was made up of players who had started at other youth associations but had open-enrolled to Hermantown. Obviously, at the youth level that's a Minnesota Hockey issue. However, there is some momentum at the state wide level to try and get that ruled changed back to "play where you live" only. I'm not saying it's going to change tomorrow, or even next year. But, it's definitely become a topic of conversation among individual association leaders in youth hockey around our state.

Of course, at the high school level, there are numerous reports of families who buy a house or rent an apartment and the whole family never fully moves into it as the MSHSL rules require. I personally know of one very talented player who played at a Duluth high school recently that lived in an apartment in town and neither of his divorced parents were ever there. And, as I also stated previously, there is chatter that the families of a couple of this year's Hermantown kids who open-enrolled didn't actually fully move to/live in Hermantown as required. Again, I don't have any direct knowledge of that so, I'm not saying it's true. Still, not only is that on the families that choose to break that rule but, I put even more responsibility on the head coaches, athletic directors, and principals for allowing those situations to occur. Why you ask? Because there is no way in hell that those coaches and administrators haven't heard the rumors that those families aren't fully following the rules. And, if they do hear those rumors, they absolutely have an obligation to uphold the integrity of the rule and, more importantly, the integrity of the proper competitive balance of the game itself. Especially since the MSHSL puts it on the schools to police themselves.

Seriously, is it really that difficult if an AD or coach that hears rumors or direct input that the family of a player that has "moved in" might not have actually fully moved the entire family in as the rule requires, to have a meeting with that player's parents to have them prove they've actually completely moved the entire family into the district? I realize those can often be difficult conversations. But, isn't having/dealing with those difficult conversations a large part of being a coach/AD/principal? Isn't that why they get paid extra money for those positions? (granted, not nearly enough but hey, they choose to take them so...). Unfortunately, my experience in dealing directly with a number of ADs is that they actually seem to be even more conflict-averse than others who aren't in those positions. Meaning, even though being in those positions usually means dealing with more than the average amounts of inter-personal conflict on a day to day basis, they tend to try to avoid those situations as much as possible. That speaks directly to the level of leadership those individuals actually provide. They are obligated to do the right thing, no matter how much negative reaction that might bring upon themselves. Unfortunately, it has become obvious the last 20 years or so how very few of the people in those leadership positions actually have the personal integrity and courage to make the difficult decisions they are supposedly being paid to make.

defense
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by defense » Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:48 pm

I think part of it from an administrative perspective is that they are not going to turn a student down. Students are their business. Digging in to some of those things may lead to something etc and get to slippery slope type of thing. Where do they draw the line? I'm not opining anything here, just asking the question. Regardless of my stance on the current situation in Hermantown and greater Duluth, I actually am against transfers and that type of thing I just realize it happens and it is sad.
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Hunters1993
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Hunters1993 » Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:59 pm

Yes and teaching the students the idea of integrity when they are crossing that line. Isn’t that the goal or reason for teachers, administrators etc. if rules are being broken or gray areas are being entered isn’t it anvadministrators job to investigate. How about protecting the kids already in a district of high school. Is he/she paid to protect their opportunities and chance to participate if someone moves in when rules are broken or gray areas are crossed. Ir teaching them the idea that winning is not everything or that the friends they are leaving behind might be a regret they have later in life.

Stay in school
Stay in your school!
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defense
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by defense » Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:06 pm

I just don't know how as an administrator you could shut it down.
Similar things happened at my HS when o was a student, not to the level of Hermantown of course, but I look at two situations back then and I'm not sure anyone could do anything about it. They cam to town, got an apartment and played.
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Hunters1993
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Hunters1993 » Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:08 pm

It’s called integrity. When parents speak up or you here you investigate. Integrity! You’re not going to stop all cheaters but you should be able to make examples of ones caught and that would deter others. ADs are supposed to have integrity. Coaches are supposed to have integrity. When players parents recruit you have a heart to heart. You investigate. Integrity!
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defense
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by defense » Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:09 pm

Yes, ideally. But if no rules are broken what can be done?
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Hunters1993
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Hunters1993 » Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:12 pm

No rules broken? Integrity

Coaches make promises to possible transfers. Parents recruiting kids. Transfers not following moving rules ? Integrity........
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defense
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by defense » Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:19 pm

I guess my point is that integrity is good and great, but is there rules against parents recruiting? Pretty sure there isn't. Its ugly, but it happens. Is there rules against a coach talking to a player? I honestly don't know, but I don't think there is. Aren't you allowed to transfer once in high school without being penalized?? Pretty sure they wrote that rule because of some ball players 20 years ago. Before that it was crazy
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Wise Old Man
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Wise Old Man » Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:29 pm

The MSHSL actually does have very clear rules about recruiting, to include even parents doing it. Obviously, the challenge as an AD is trying to definitively prove it occurred. To be honest, since proving any parent of a player from one school actually tried or did recruit a player from another school is so difficult, I believe that the MSHSL shouldn't try to make that illegal. I certainly agree in preventing coaches from recruiting. Yes, proving a coach actually did it is difficult as well but, you need to draw a line somewhere and it's a lot more obvious if a coach is talking to a player at a summer camp or summer league game or AAA tournament.

The other question it raises is in regards to the private schools as they obviously have to "recruit" even non-athlete students. And, for many of those schools, word of mouth is a significant part of their recruiting process. And yes, once you enter 9th grade you are allowed to transfer/open-enroll. However, unless your family actually moves into the new school's geographic boundary, you can't play varsity sports for a calendar year. If your family moves into the new school district, you are immediately eligible for varsity participation. And yes, coaches, ADs, and principals can do something about it -- if they have the strength/integrity to do so. Especially in today's world of social media. The MSHSL has listed a number of ways that coaches and administrators can use to prove proper residency but, it's also pretty easy to look at kids and/or parents social media accounts to determine if a family has truly changed residency in accordance with the rule.

An example is the question of proper eligibility regarding one of the kids that open-enrolled into St. Thomas Academy this year from the Chicago area. The player had younger siblings who were also involved in athletics and apparently, even though the whole family had supposedly moved to the Twin Cities, there were still social media posts being made well into the high school hockey season by the parents about their younger children's athletic accomplishments on teams in the Chicago area. :roll: Pretty substantial proof that the family hadn't completely moved to Minnesota. Not to mention the fact that, every senior at St. Thomas is required to give a "senior speech" to the entire school that is required for graduation. Apparently, the kid from Chicago specifically mentioned in his speech he was very thankful that St. Thomas' head hockey coach came to visit him in Chicago last summer to talk him into (recruit) going to St. Thomas. Even more damning was his acknowledgment that it had been a challenging year since his family was back in Chicago and he couldn't see them very often.

My understanding is that this speech was given at least a couple weeks before the playoffs, if not earlier. Obviously, even if the AD or principal didn't know the details of the situation yet, they certainly had enough evidence after hearing (or hearing of) the speech to begin an investigation. As far as anyone can tell, that didn't happen. Even after a formal complaint was filed against the school through the MSHSL and the AD was "officially" notified by the person who filed the MSHSL complaint. Despite the fairly obvious evidence of two significant rules violations, when the AD was informed of the possible violations, all he could say was "no comment" and there wouldn't be any further public comment. Nor would the MSHSL commit to any type of investigation. All the MSHSL said in response was that they leave it up to the schools to "self-report" in potential eligibility questions . No indication was given by the MSHSL as to whether they would conduct their own investigation or not.

The point to all of this is that, despite pretty convincing evidence which all of the appropriate administrative entities are aware of, nothing has been done to this point. At least, nothing that has come out publicly. This is a violation of the very ethics of our sport and, as the late Jack Welch said in his book "Winning", when you have an ethics violation in an organization, you should shout who it was and what the punishment was from the mountaintop as that type of public humiliation is what prevents others from doing the same thing. Yet, especially in high school sports, the public -- often including even the players and parents directly involved -- don't ever get the full story. Obviously, due to the fact many of those involved are underage, I understand the particular involvement of any underage individual needs to be protected. However, the degree to which today's privacy laws supposedly prevent organizations from divulging the details of a given situation, especially when a coach is found to have broken the rules is, in my opinion, directly responsible for why the same violations continue to be attempted.

defense
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by defense » Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:52 pm

Well with lots of time on my hands I found a read the eligibility rules. They are pretty black and white. I was confused before but it spells it out well. I did not find anything on boarding schools though. Not sure how they fit in. I know boarding students have competed in the past.
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Hunters1993
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Hunters1993 » Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:18 pm

The expectation when dealing with kids is to be above reproach. If I had a school system I would want people in the position of AD and coach that have great Ethics, and Integrity. I would want them to model to the kids and the parents appropriate behavior. I have teacher friends tgat every day try to show ethics and integrity everyday to the kids. It is one of their most important jobs they have told me, if they had any question about gray area stuff they would be all over it,

But this old, ugly donkey will take the income, increased property values, better facilities.

Remember No one is jealous of your program! No one. They just need that old, ugly donkey to get to the X,

Not Herman(Ely,Proctor,Virginia, Denfeld)town
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Hunters1993
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Hunters1993 » Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:36 pm

Here’s another interesting idea. What would happen if the kids who transfer in have to wear the a helmet that shows the logo of where they were before they entered. Like all star teams were a Jersey for all stars and a patch of the team they play the season on. Maybe they could do that for the kids.

So Ely kid could wear a Hermantown Jersey with a patch with a Ely on it and a patch on theie helmet. Then everyone in the arena through the whole season would know the kid was originally from somewhere else. Then the school they came from would get credit for the players skill and abilities and get rocognized as well. Not just the school they transferred to.

Would be interesting to see a team like Hermantown with half the kids wearing alternative helmets and recognizing those schools. Wonder how the Hermantown parents would feel showing everyone in the arena that they weren’t home grown or community based.

And that there was no magic Hermantown fairy dust sprinkled on these kids that made them great players but was just where they decided to play. On the old ugly donkey ride to the X.
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defense
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by defense » Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:40 pm

Interesting, kind of related but in youth hockey a team advancing beyond districts is allowed to draft players from a different team in the tournament they advanced from. This player wears his original team's uniform. I've always thought that was kinda cool
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Hunters1993
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Hunters1993 » Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:46 pm

Yes then the mighty all star team of Hermantown would be recognized as such. Not community based but an all star team that was built from all corners of section 7.


And about the recruiting. When parents of Hermantown kids try recruiting and can list all the c-chip games, the coaches willingness to drop kids who are homegrown, and the old ugly donkey ride to the X will continue. It’s probably an easy job to recruit from there. Close that free trip to the X every year and then see how the recruiting goes!
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Hunters1993
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Hunters1993 » Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:58 pm

Previous post

Those state tournament teams every year in AA. They are Hermantown on steroids.

Really that’s interesting cause they beat Hill Murray during the season and played BSM and EP and held their own. I would contend that Hermantown is a class AA school playing class A in the playoffs. I would also contend that Hermantown is many class AA schools on steroids! They beat class A schools 19 out of 20 games. They even have a good record against the AA schools. In c-chip game 9 out of 11 years. 8 straight c-chip games. Come on!

You are a AA quality team playing A hockey!
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nu2hockey
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by nu2hockey » Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:55 am

Hunters1993 wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:46 pm
Yes then the mighty all star team of Hermantown would be recognized as such. Not community based but an all star team that was built from all corners of section 7.


And about the recruiting. When parents of Hermantown kids try recruiting and can list all the c-chip games, the coaches willingness to drop kids who are homegrown, and the old ugly donkey ride to the X will continue. It’s probably an easy job to recruit from there. Close that free trip to the X every year and then see how the recruiting goes!

Hermantown is the gift that keeps on giving....year after year the same complaints ,yet, nothing changes...

h93 is one in a long line of people affected by 7a hockey... they rant, they cry, they stomp their feet while throwing a fit...soon, another takes their place...oh my

All this whining, because Goliath resides in 7a..they moan because they want to take the "donkey"(?) trip to st paul...

If they are breaking rules, just prove it

Until then embrace the underdog role..

Hunters1993
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Hunters1993 » Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:40 am

It has been proven. By people involved in the program even. There has been proven. Take your head out of the sand.
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by Hunters1993 » Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:02 pm

Hermantown you are not a Goliath. You are an all star team of section 7 hockey. Let’s call it what it is
Herman(Ely,Virginia,Proctor, Denfeld)town. It’s a collection of the best players from all corners of section 7 all wearing a Hermantown Jersey. Let’s have the kids wear their hometown jerseys. Let’s show the state what you really have their. A triple AAA team playing high school kids. And playing the lowest class they can. Class A.

Any comments on maybe University of Minnesota should move down because of the Goliath in the form of UMD. University of Minnesota could drop down to D3 and win every year just like Hermantown. Oh the publicity. Think about it.

Just a FYI, I have no kids in hockey, I have no financial investment, no horse in the race. I live an hour from hockey but drive to see twenty games a year and take a yearly trip to the X since 1993.

But Hermantown parents sure do have an investment in increased property values, better school buildings, and a free trip on the old ugly donkey that is Hermantown a Hockey. No one is jealous of your old ugly donkey they just want the free ride to the X!
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nu2hockey
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by nu2hockey » Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:29 pm

Hunters1993 wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:40 am
It has been proven. By people involved in the program even. There has been proven. Take your head out of the sand.
Nothing against the rules has been proven...lots of conjecture....if any thing is proven the forum will blow up..lots of fun to be had at that point

Look, pull you thumb out of your mouth, change your diaper and suck it up, buttercup..."there's no crying in hockey"...(unless you're in 7a, apparently)

kniven
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Re: The Hermantown Thread

Post by kniven » Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:50 pm

nu2hockey wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:29 pm
Hunters1993 wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:40 am
It has been proven. By people involved in the program even. There has been proven. Take your head out of the sand.
Nothing against the rules has been proven...lots of conjecture....if any thing is proven the forum will blow up..lots of fun to be had at that point

Look, pull you thumb out of your mouth, change your diaper and suck it up, buttercup..."there's no crying in hockey"...(unless you're in 7a, apparently)
Lots of crying and crab ass in 7A. That’s all 7A is good for anymore. Crab ass and crying. Poor me.
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