STA is an Overrated team based on Elite League performance.

Shinbone_News · Post by **Shinbone_News** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:15 pm

DannyCalifornia wrote:
Shinbone_News wrote:I keep saying it and no one seems to listen: STA plays plenty of AA teams in the regular season. This year: BSM, Edina, Minnetonka, Hill-Murray, Cretin-Derham, Holy Family. If you really hate 'em, go see 'em get beat by the AA teams you love.

You guys get so exercised about this just because of the state tourney. You need to get out and see some games before March. I for one will say I'm not sure they CAN compete with the big boys. Hill Murray is a case in point: they never seem to be able to get by them.

Last year, they lost to every AA team they played except Roseau -- Edina, East, H-M (twice).

OK, they beat Cretin-Derham and Holy Angels while no was watching. Down year for both of those programs.

The question is: If they DID go AA, would you suddenly love them? I doubt it.

On a related note, where's the hate for Totino-Grace? They're OK because they don't get to state as often?

Best games I saw last year, any class, were the STA-TG games that were barn-burners, both of them. And I have no love for the privates.

Why would their be hate for TG?
If anything, we should feel bad for these kids.
Its not the players fault that they have marginal to poor coaching.
Everyone that knows anything about hockey in Minny knows TG gets some really good players and does nothing with them year after year after year after year,etc.....atleast the Breck's and St Thomas's go to the tourney(albeit jv tourney)everyone once in awhile.

Um. Totino Grace played STA to within one OT goal of going to state last year. They won it all in 2002, and lost in the state 'ship in 2005. That's hardly "doing nothing with them year after year after year."

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:57 am

There were a lot of complaints about the number of St. Thomas players in the Elite League. I'm not close enough to the situation to have an opinion, but I did wonder if maybe the kids deserved to be there.

So I went looking for a thread on the subject and stumbled across this one. St. Thomas overrated! (It seems hard to overrate them. They were a lock to be #1 in Class A this year and a clear favorite to win another state title.)

Interesting if nothing else.

Shinbone_News · Post by **Shinbone_News** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:51 am

I admit I was a naysayer - and I really like STA and support them. It just seemed way disproprotionate that they had, if I remember, 7 players in the elite league, and there were significant powerhouse programs that had NONE or very few. I still think STA coaches probably had disproportionate sway with the scouts. But that probably just means that the team -- especially many of its second-line stars -- were under-rated. I remember seeing a tryout scrimmage and thinking that Henry Hart, for example, was a really nice (but small) player I'd never heard of before. He scored one of their goals last night against SSM. And sophomore Tom Novak -- on virtually no one's radar until this season -- scored the OT winner. He's done that more than once this year.

Just Checking · Post by **Just Checking** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:12 pm

O-town,
Be Kind Rewind makes me chuckle every time.

I Just Checked the Hub and the SSM team went 10-2-3 last year. STA was without their second leading scorer and arguably their best D last night. Jack Dougherty. I think he was the only STA kid voted to the E league All Star game.
The question on the thread was implying that STA was overrated becuase they didn't score much in the E league. They had 4 defenseman and a goalie out of the 9 kids taken. D are not going to score much. The 4 forwards are all 2 way guys with way more attributes than just scoring. Maybe the question of this thread should be changed to "In Hockey, is Scoring Overrated?"

minnscout · Post by **minnscout** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:19 pm

I believe what they are saying is St Thomas does not have many Elite players but rather a deep team made up of many good not great players. 2-3 D1 players?

Nostalgic Nerd · Post by **Nostalgic Nerd** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:50 pm

Bruce Plante of Hermantown pointed out that this was the big difference between STA and his team; whatever you think of his decision to make those comments, they were accurate.

Plante's comment was shallow. It felt like he had a built-in excuse in case his team lost in the final. A more genuine approach would have been to accept the loss and move on.

PuckU126 · Post by **PuckU126** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:30 pm

Nostalgic Nerd wrote:Plante's comment was shallow. It felt like he had a built-in excuse in case his team lost in the final. A more genuine approach would have been to accept the loss and move on.

That would have indeed been a better approach; however, I don't blame the guy for blowing off some frustration. I assume most people and myself don't hold it against him.

salol44 · Post by **salol44** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:30 pm

Nostalgic Nerd wrote:
Bruce Plante of Hermantown pointed out that this was the big difference between STA and his team; whatever you think of his decision to make those comments, they were accurate.
Plante's comment was shallow. It felt like he had a built-in excuse in case his team lost in the final. A more genuine approach would have been to accept the loss and move on.

Hermantown- no recruits. Sta- all recruits. The most genuine quote from Bruce Plante was when he said the championship game was when they played Thief River in the semis.....100% genuine. He has accepted the loss, he has not accepted the fact they lost to a team that cheats....teams that recruit need to leave the mshl.

PuckU126 · Post by **PuckU126** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:49 pm

salol44 wrote:Hermantown- no recruits. Sta- all recruits.

Public schools have been known to recruit as well.

thestickler07 · Post by **thestickler07** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:49 pm

salol44 wrote:Hermantown- no recruits. Sta- all recruits. The most genuine quote from Bruce Plante was when he said the championship game was when they played Thief River in the semis.....100% genuine. He has accepted the loss, he has not accepted the fact they lost to a team that cheats....teams that recruit need to leave the mshl.

I'm playing the world's saddest song, on the world's smallest violin for you right now.

thestickler07 · Post by **thestickler07** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:50 pm

PuckU126 wrote:
salol44 wrote:Hermantown- no recruits. Sta- all recruits.
Public schools have been known to recruit as well.

PuckU, you know factual information has no place in this discussion! Shame on you!

PuckU126 · Post by **PuckU126** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:52 pm

salol44 wrote:he has not accepted the fact they lost to a team that cheats....teams that recruit need to leave the mshl.

The MSHL better call off the season right now. Many teams would be found guilty of "recruiting."

PuckU126 · Post by **PuckU126** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:56 pm

thestickler07 wrote:PuckU, you know factual information has no place in this discussion! Shame on you!

I tend to pay attention too often. Its a horrible gift.

salol44 · Post by **salol44** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:25 pm

MNHockeyFan · Post by **MNHockeyFan** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:44 pm

Bruce Plante = Class A Whiner

If he should lose to Duluth Marshall next year, he will have graduated to the ranks of being a Double A whiner!

Nuts&Bolts · Post by **Nuts&Bolts** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:07 pm

9 kids in the Elite league was a joke and no way do they have four D that belonged. Don't care what anybody says but the political forces and Elite's SE coaches closeness to the STA(A) program had the sniff of heavy political influence. At some point, an "Elite" League D needs to get a couple of points. Daugherty is the real deal as is Novak who wasn't one of the 9. What St. Thomas has is depth, good coaching, discipline, TEAM play and a consistent goalie playing very well. There stars playing lights out are underclassmen that just play and don't think they need to do it all by being selfish. Not many other teams AA or A have the chemistry of STA(A) at this point.

Nostalgic Nerd · Post by **Nostalgic Nerd** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:47 pm

salol44 wrote:
Nostalgic Nerd wrote:
Bruce Plante of Hermantown pointed out that this was the big difference between STA and his team; whatever you think of his decision to make those comments, they were accurate.
Plante's comment was shallow. It felt like he had a built-in excuse in case his team lost in the final. A more genuine approach would have been to accept the loss and move on.
Hermantown- no recruits. Sta- all recruits. The most genuine quote from Bruce Plante was when he said the championship game was when they played Thief River in the semis.....100% genuine. He has accepted the loss, he has not accepted the fact they lost to a team that cheats....teams that recruit need to leave the mshl.

The reason I'm not buying it is because we already know privates recruit. To add the comment live right before or after the game seems odd. The classier thing would have been to congratulate them and move on.

Post by **karl(east)** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:12 am

Nostalgic Nerd wrote:
salol44 wrote:
Nostalgic Nerd wrote: Plante's comment was shallow. It felt like he had a built-in excuse in case his team lost in the final. A more genuine approach would have been to accept the loss and move on.
Hermantown- no recruits. Sta- all recruits. The most genuine quote from Bruce Plante was when he said the championship game was when they played Thief River in the semis.....100% genuine. He has accepted the loss, he has not accepted the fact they lost to a team that cheats....teams that recruit need to leave the mshl.
The reason I'm not buying it is because we already know privates recruit. To add the comment live right before or after the game seems odd. The classier thing would have been to congratulate them and move on.

I think this quote is being taken out of context. The one I cited on this thread was after the championship game, when he was analyzing the difference between his team and STA (that is, their depth) without making any reference to recruiting or talent pool. He was just saying that Hermantown lost because STA was deeper, and went on to add some praise of STA's playing style.

His rant about STA's ability to draw from a large population (not once did he mention "recruiting") came the day before. Having been there to hear his tone, I am still pretty sure he was trying to play a mind game with his team, and set it up as "us against the world." Obviously it didn't work, and one could criticize the decision to try to use that approach, but I wouldn't say he was trying to make excuses, or whining simply for the sake of whining.

Details here, in my first post and another one 2/3 of the way down the second page: http://www.ushsho.com/forums/viewtopic. ... te&start=0

Just Checking · Post by **Just Checking** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:21 am

OK, I have been trying to figure out how to put this in the most basic form. The point is they just beat SSM. After tying #1 HM and beating HM, BSM, Edina. That does not happen with a group of good but not great skaters.

SSM = 18 bonafide legit elite league players. They won the elite league championship with a 14-2-3 record. Then went 21-1-0 over the next 22 games only losing to some team from the Czech Republic in an Austrian tourney.
STA= 1 legit elite league player for sure, maybe 2-4 depending upon who you ask on this forum. BTW the one elite league guy NandB says is the real deal was watching from home.
Hummmm, that adds up.... I guess the thread title does make sense.. Overrated for sure.

puckster15 · Post by **puckster15** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:27 am

Elite league showcases individual talent to scouts. It is not about who plays the best team hockey.

Appears most of the STA elite players do not possess the great individual talent like a Justin Kloos, but may possess enough good talent that when leveraged in a team environment with a pretty good coach in Vanelli that they win.

MNHockeyFan · Post by **MNHockeyFan** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:50 pm

Really some conflicting opinions on STA on this board. So many complain about their recruiting and that they're an "all star team", yet from others we hear that they have just "good" players that aren't as talented as others because they didn't score that much in the Elite League. If it's possible that both sides are right, I can only conclude that they must have some of the best coaching in the state! They know how to "attract" the RIGHT players that, even if they're not the most talented players out there, they still beat teams that should be better than they are.

Or what am I missing?

HShockeywatcher · Post by **HShockeywatcher** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:27 pm

puckster15 wrote:Elite league showcases individual talent to scouts. It is not about who plays the best team hockey.

Huh? So, an individual who is talented and plays good team hockey isn't something scouts would want to see...they don't want team players?

salol44 wrote:Hermantown- no recruits. Sta- all recruits. The most genuine quote from Bruce Plante was when he said the championship game was when they played Thief River in the semis.....100% genuine. He has accepted the loss, he has not accepted the fact they lost to a team that cheats....teams that recruit need to leave the mshl.

Karl responded to one part of the post, I'll respond to the other [although it will likely fall on deaf ears].

The difference between private schools and public schools now is ONLY that you cannot attend a public school if they do not have room for you. Open enrollment exists (and is an active force currently being used) and the only reason you cannot transfer to another school/district [as I understand it] is if they are at capacity.
There may be others, but Hermantown is the only district I have known that did not accept an OE.

Private schools, in general, "recruit" for their programs by having a good program, facilities, coaches and similar, in the same way public schools do. I have heard about parents in associations trying to get other families to go there, I have also heard about and witnesses this first hand at public schools as well.
If you are claiming that every single family whose children play for Hermantown (or any public school) all grew up in the community and none of them moved in because of the school district or the hockey community, you are incorrect. Public schools attract families to the community by their program and their school.

I also think it's interesting to know that these comments we are referring to would have been much different had they won the game. When they beat private schools, it was an amazing accomplishment, when they lose to them, they're cheating

Gems · Post by **Gems** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:34 pm

HShockeywatcher wrote:
puckster15 wrote:Elite league showcases individual talent to scouts. It is not about who plays the best team hockey.
Huh? So, an individual who is talented and plays good team hockey isn't something scouts would want to see...they don't want team players?

salol44 wrote:Hermantown- no recruits. Sta- all recruits. The most genuine quote from Bruce Plante was when he said the championship game was when they played Thief River in the semis.....100% genuine. He has accepted the loss, he has not accepted the fact they lost to a team that cheats....teams that recruit need to leave the mshl.
Karl responded to one part of the post, I'll respond to the other [although it will likely fall on deaf ears].

The difference between private schools and public schools now is ONLY that you cannot attend a public school if they do not have room for you. Open enrollment exists (and is an active force currently being used) and the only reason you cannot transfer to another school/district [as I understand it] is if they are at capacity.
There may be others, but Hermantown is the only district I have known that did not accept an OE.

Private schools, in general, "recruit" for their programs by having a good program, facilities, coaches and similar, in the same way public schools do. I have heard about parents in associations trying to get other families to go there, I have also heard about and witnesses this first hand at public schools as well.
If you are claiming that every single family whose children play for Hermantown (or any public school) all grew up in the community and none of them moved in because of the school district or the hockey community, you are incorrect. Public schools attract families to the community by their program and their school.

I also think it's interesting to know that these comments we are referring to would have been much different had they won the game. When they beat private schools, it was an amazing accomplishment, when they lose to them, they're cheating