MN Lakers 14U to Nationals

[elliott70]

I don't think the Blades really desire to play in the National tournament.
And I don't think not 'being allowed' has hurt their organization.

If they desired it why have they never appeared at a BOD meeting and requested it.

The few people that come on this board (anonymously) and argue the Blades case are hardly the majority of hockey people in Minnesota.

[The51]

Can’t community based hockey still exist with the Blades being allowed to play for Nationals? Just make them have to end the same time the current high performance leagues end.

Blocking them from nationals IMO doesn’t seem to have accomplished anything because it doesn’t prevent them from existing and taking talented kids, it just seems spiteful

[elliott70]

Any national bound team has to make the request by a given time.
If denied, they can come to the full BOD.

[elliott70]

Can’t community based hockey still exist with the Blades being allowed to play for Nationals? Just make them have to end the same time the current high performance leagues end.

Seems easy so why have they not requested an opportunity.

Blocking them from nationals IMO doesn’t seem to have accomplished anything because it doesn’t prevent them from existing and taking talented kids, it just seems spiteful

The ball is in their court.

[The51]

Can’t community based hockey still exist with the Blades being allowed to play for Nationals? Just make them have to end the same time the current high performance leagues end.

Seems easy so why have they not requested an opportunity.

Blocking them from nationals IMO doesn’t seem to have accomplished anything because it doesn’t prevent them from existing and taking talented kids, it just seems spiteful

The ball is in their court.

Interesting, so your educated guess/belief based on your time spent inside MN Hockey is, if a team was willing to follow MN rules and guidelines MN Hockey would approve them as tier 1?

[elliott70]

THEY WOULD CONSIDER IT.
It is not automatic.
But for years (along time ago) Just about all were approved.
Then because of bad reviews of the USAH tourney all were discontinued.
Now USAH and MH have worked it out to send teams again.
So I would think if someone came forward with a legitimite request it would be considered.
Not all of the board is closed minded (if any).


Sorry for the typing but ma trying to work and respond here on a timely basis.

[HockeyTalk2020]

I don't think the Blades really desire to play in the National tournament.
And I don't think not 'being allowed' has hurt their organization.

If they desired it why have they never appeared at a BOD meeting and requested it.

The few people that come on this board (anonymously) and argue the Blades case are hardly the majority of hockey people in Minnesota.

Elliot, this is one I agree with you on. Mn has the best model up to high school, then all bets are off with only a 3 month season with many cons to counter the many pros.

I know for a fact 2-3 yrs ago blades were at mn hockey meetings to try keep the sept 30th date to allow their 14s and some 15s aged kids to play. But mn hockey wanted nothing to do with them playing thinking it would beef up their relatively new mn tier 1 hockey program. Which I have seen those tryouts and often there are zero evaluators.

Reality is Blades, BA, etc don’t want to be national tournament eligible. They just want to play when there is a gap in mn hockey season, which doesn’t start until essentially early to mid Oct for bantams. The move to sept 1 was a bad decision by mn hockey. It is was self serving and at the expense of all kids who want options to get better and have different experiences. Blades isn’t for everyone just like mn fall tier 1 teams isn’t either. So why make it only 1 way or nothing? If we are honest, follow the money on that decision.

Allowing kids to play fall programs outside of mn tier 1 as they prepare for their bantam season is all families want.

[skatez]

Allowing the Blades to play at Nationals would not end association hockey.

Why not let kids play wherever they want until their high school or association season starts?

The only teams that Minnesota Hockey designates Tier 1 status for (outside of SSM) are their own HP teams. Another way this could be said is the only teams that are designated Tier 1 in Minnesota (outside of SSM) are teams where all the money goes to Minnesota Hockey. If this wasn't the case, Minnesota Hockey would let the Blades, Blue Army, etc. play OUTSIDE of the high school and association season and grant them Tier 1 status. They won't grant these teams Tier 1 status because it would decimate their HP program, one of their biggest money makers.

[The51]

I don't think the Blades really desire to play in the National tournament.
And I don't think not 'being allowed' has hurt their organization.

If they desired it why have they never appeared at a BOD meeting and requested it.

The few people that come on this board (anonymously) and argue the Blades case are hardly the majority of hockey people in Minnesota.

Elliot, this is one I agree with you on. Mn has the best model up to high school, then all bets are off with only a 3 month season with many cons to counter the many pros.

I know for a fact 2-3 yrs ago blades were at mn hockey meetings to try keep the sept 30th date to allow their 14s and some 15s aged kids to play. But mn hockey wanted nothing to do with them playing thinking it would beef up their relatively new mn tier 1 hockey program. Which I have seen those tryouts and often there are zero evaluators.

Reality is Blades, BA, etc don’t want to be national tournament eligible. They just want to play when there is a gap in mn hockey season, which doesn’t start until essentially early to mid Oct for bantams. The move to sept 1 was a bad decision by mn hockey. It is was self serving and at the expense of all kids who want options to get better and have different experiences. Blades isn’t for everyone just like mn fall tier 1 teams isn’t either. So why make it only 1 way or nothing? If we are honest, follow the money on that decision.

Allowing kids to play fall programs outside of mn tier 1 as they prepare for their bantam season is all families want.

What’s the background on the Sep 1 v Sep 30 conversation? I’ve heard it mentioned a couple times but am unaware of what it’s about

[elliott70]

I don't think the Blades really desire to play in the National tournament.
And I don't think not 'being allowed' has hurt their organization.

If they desired it why have they never appeared at a BOD meeting and requested it.

The few people that come on this board (anonymously) and argue the Blades case are hardly the majority of hockey people in Minnesota.

Elliot, this is one I agree with you on. Mn has the best model up to high school, then all bets are off with only a 3 month season with many cons to counter the many pros.

I know for a fact 2-3 yrs ago blades were at mn hockey meetings to try keep the sept 30th date to allow their 14s and some 15s aged kids to play. But mn hockey wanted nothing to do with them playing thinking it would beef up their relatively new mn tier 1 hockey program. Which I have seen those tryouts and often there are zero evaluators.

Reality is Blades, BA, etc don’t want to be national tournament eligible. They just want to play when there is a gap in mn hockey season, which doesn’t start until essentially early to mid Oct for bantams. The move to sept 1 was a bad decision by mn hockey. It is was self serving and at the expense of all kids who want options to get better and have different experiences. Blades isn’t for everyone just like mn fall tier 1 teams isn’t either. So why make it only 1 way or nothing? If we are honest, follow the money on that decision.

Allowing kids to play fall programs outside of mn tier 1 as they prepare for their bantam season is all families want.

What’s the background on the Sep 1 v Sep 30 conversation? I’ve heard it mentioned a couple times but am unaware of what it’s about

Moving the start date of youth hockey up...
I thought it was presented and voted on to quickly, so I abstained.

[HockeyTalk2020]

Someone keep me honest but 3 years ago mn hockey defined the season starting Oct 1 ending after youth state tournaments. Per USA hockey guidelines you cannot be dual rostered so once oct 1 hit if you are playing association hockey you can’t do both. This gave tier 1 programs about 6 weeks of training and opportunities to play in showcases with many high end programs lije Ceasars, SSM, LI Gulls, etc…

2 years ago they moved the start of mn hockey to sept 15th so you can’t be rostered on tier 1 team (i.e. blades, BA). Last year they moved it again to sept 1.


Keep in mind, nearly all bantam programs don’t even start tryouts until Oct. So there was ZERO reason to make this move other then…cough, cough…money. Also once kids are not bantam eligible mn hockey rules don’t apply as kids are under mnhsl rules that don’t care.

Another classic mn hockey move is a 8th grader may play high school and be eligible for 14u tier 1 as a 9th grader and mnhock has deemed them okay to go play blades/BA after their cutoff start date since they played high school. But a different 8th grader plays 1st yr bantams and is going to play mnhsl as 9th grader, mnhock has deemed them ineligible to play blades/BA after the cutoff.

Correct where I have made any errors

[The51]

Someone keep me honest but 3 years ago mn hockey defined the season starting Oct 1 ending after youth state tournaments. Per USA hockey guidelines you cannot be dual rostered so once oct 1 hit if you are playing association hockey you can’t do both. This gave tier 1 programs about 6 weeks of training and opportunities to play in showcases with many high end programs lije Ceasars, SSM, LI Gulls, etc…

2 years ago they moved the start of mn hockey to sept 15th so you can’t be rostered on tier 1 team (i.e. blades, BA). Last year they moved it again to sept 1.


Keep in mind, nearly all bantam programs don’t even start tryouts until Oct. So there was ZERO reason to make this move other then…cough, cough…money. Also once kids are not bantam eligible mn hockey rules don’t apply as kids are under mnhsl rules that don’t care.

Another classic mn hockey move is a 8th grader may play high school and be eligible for 14u tier 1 as a 9th grader and mnhock has deemed them okay to go play blades/BA after their cutoff start date since they played high school. But a different 8th grader plays 1st yr bantams and is going to play mnhsl as 9th grader, mnhock has deemed them ineligible to play blades/BA after the cutoff.

Correct where I have made any errors

So then how are 14U Lakers, Polars etc able to play into Oct? Per myhockeyrankings website there were games being played as late as Oct 8

[InThePipes]

Someone keep me honest but 3 years ago mn hockey defined the season starting Oct 1 ending after youth state tournaments. Per USA hockey guidelines you cannot be dual rostered so once oct 1 hit if you are playing association hockey you can’t do both. This gave tier 1 programs about 6 weeks of training and opportunities to play in showcases with many high end programs lije Ceasars, SSM, LI Gulls, etc…

2 years ago they moved the start of mn hockey to sept 15th so you can’t be rostered on tier 1 team (i.e. blades, BA). Last year they moved it again to sept 1.


Keep in mind, nearly all bantam programs don’t even start tryouts until Oct. So there was ZERO reason to make this move other then…cough, cough…money. Also once kids are not bantam eligible mn hockey rules don’t apply as kids are under mnhsl rules that don’t care.

Another classic mn hockey move is a 8th grader may play high school and be eligible for 14u tier 1 as a 9th grader and mnhock has deemed them okay to go play blades/BA after their cutoff start date since they played high school. But a different 8th grader plays 1st yr bantams and is going to play mnhsl as 9th grader, mnhock has deemed them ineligible to play blades/BA after the cutoff.

Correct where I have made any errors

So then how are 14U Lakers, Polars etc able to play into Oct? Per myhockeyrankings website there were games being played as late as Oct 8

Those are MN Hockey Tier 1 teams along with the Loons, Walleye, Blue Ox, etc., etc. and they are allowed to play.

[The51]

Someone keep me honest but 3 years ago mn hockey defined the season starting Oct 1 ending after youth state tournaments. Per USA hockey guidelines you cannot be dual rostered so once oct 1 hit if you are playing association hockey you can’t do both. This gave tier 1 programs about 6 weeks of training and opportunities to play in showcases with many high end programs lije Ceasars, SSM, LI Gulls, etc…

2 years ago they moved the start of mn hockey to sept 15th so you can’t be rostered on tier 1 team (i.e. blades, BA). Last year they moved it again to sept 1.


Keep in mind, nearly all bantam programs don’t even start tryouts until Oct. So there was ZERO reason to make this move other then…cough, cough…money. Also once kids are not bantam eligible mn hockey rules don’t apply as kids are under mnhsl rules that don’t care.

Another classic mn hockey move is a 8th grader may play high school and be eligible for 14u tier 1 as a 9th grader and mnhock has deemed them okay to go play blades/BA after their cutoff start date since they played high school. But a different 8th grader plays 1st yr bantams and is going to play mnhsl as 9th grader, mnhock has deemed them ineligible to play blades/BA after the cutoff.

Correct where I have made any errors

So then how are 14U Lakers, Polars etc able to play into Oct? Per myhockeyrankings website there were games being played as late as Oct 8

Those are MN Hockey Tier 1 teams along with the Loons, Walleye, Blue Ox, etc., etc. and they are allowed to play.

So MN hockey made an exception to allow double rostering for the teams they run?

[skatez]

If you are paying Minnesota Hockey its ok and you are doing things for the right reason. If you are paying the Blades or Blue Army its not ok and you are paying a "for profit" entity. Its pretty black and white.

[greybeard58]

Since it's been a while since I was familiar with Tier 1 and Tier 2 levels. Mn hockey registration follows the rules set by USA Hockey and they have to approve any changes their Affiliates request. In the past I know that the Tier 1 teams from Massachusetts did what at the time was called before and after. The teams were registered with MASS./USA Hockey for the fall season then the roster was suspended and the players participated with their High School teams and then after the High School season they would reform and continue with their Tier 1 teams. I believe Mn Hockey might be using the same format with their Tier 1 teams. I hope Mr. Elliott will correct me if their have been changes in the registration procedure.
BTW if I remember correctly if a player that is registered with their local association rostered team youth and girls and want to try out for their high school team, the MSHSL used to have a rule that any player trying out could not be on another roster for the same sport during the same High School season.

Like stated on the top it's been a few years.

[The51]

Since it's been a while since I was familiar with Tier 1 and Tier 2 levels. Mn hockey registration follows the rules set by USA Hockey and they have to approve any changes their Affiliates request. In the past I know that the Tier 1 teams from Massachusetts did what at the time was called before and after. The teams were registered with MASS./USA Hockey for the fall season then the roster was suspended and the players participated with their High School teams and then after the High School season they would reform and continue with their Tier 1 teams. I believe Mn Hockey might be using the same format with their Tier 1 teams. I hope Mr. Elliott will correct me if their have been changes in the registration procedure.
BTW if I remember correctly if a player that is registered with their local association rostered team youth and girls and want to try out for their high school team, the MSHSL used to have a rule that any player trying out could not be on another roster for the same sport during the same High School season.

Like stated on the top it's been a few years.

MA and other New England area teams & prep schools do still do some sort of before and after. Not sure exactly how it works but there are 2 teams at 18U nationals, Boston Jr. Eagles and Yale Jr. Bulldogs that paused in mid Nov

[HockeyTalk2020]

If you are paying Minnesota Hockey its ok and you are doing things for the right reason. If you are paying the Blades or Blue Army its not ok and you are paying a "for profit" entity. Its pretty black and white.

Well blades are a nonprofit organization…same as mnhockey so whats your point here?

[skatez]

My point is Minnesota Hockey refers to any non-Minnesota Hockey program as "for profit" even though, as you point out, some aren't for profit.

The bigger question is why is Minnesota Hockey preventing kids opportunities in the fall? My thought is self-preservation for HP, but I'd love to hear other reasons.

[elliott70]

My point is Minnesota Hockey refers to any non-Minnesota Hockey program as "for profit" even though, as you point out, some aren't for profit.

The bigger question is why is Minnesota Hockey preventing kids opportunities in the fall? My thought is self-preservation for HP, but I'd love to hear other reasons.

You (everyone posting here) refer to non-profit as if all are the same.
To be a registered organization with USAH in MN an organization needs to be 'non-profit'.
Being non-profit does not mean you do not make a profit.
Bein non-profit does not mean no one is paid nor does it mean that they do not get paid big salaries.
There is a world of difference between may non-profits.
Compare Goodwill with many non-profits.

If MN Hockey is making a ton of money off its Tier 1 program what happens with all that money - what is it used for?

[HockeyTalk2020]

Elliot, fair points and agreed.

The spirit of “non profit” is different. And MN Hockey does have a “spirit” of not getting rich and trying to do what they feel is best for youth hockey. I think they get it right the vast majority of times. Lots of great people who are working hard and not getting nearly the equitable salary for their efforts.

Unfortunately, their fall tier 1 rollout and continued strategy is a massive miss. And thats what I am critical of.

I think MN hockey is as good as it is and players dominate the college, jr, pro ranks because of the good mn hockey does from Mites to Bantams.

[elliott70]

I have requested the financial records regarding tier 1 and plan on reviewing it to determine if it is a money grab.

[The51]

Elliot, fair points and agreed.

The spirit of “non profit” is different. And MN Hockey does have a “spirit” of not getting rich and trying to do what they feel is best for youth hockey. I think they get it right the vast majority of times. Lots of great people who are working hard and not getting nearly the equitable salary for their efforts.

Unfortunately, their fall tier 1 rollout and continued strategy is a massive miss. And thats what I am critical of.

I think MN hockey is as good as it is and players dominate the college, jr, pro ranks because of the good mn hockey does from Mites to Bantams.

This feels like a great summary as to how I feel about the topic now with what I have learned throughout my questions on this thread and the entire discussion.

I believe MN Hockey has honest intentions when it comes to Tier 1 and I think the community-based system they have implemented is largely the reason MN produces players the way it does.

My pushback to them when it comes to Tier 1 is, [assuming their motives are pure and are not influenced by anything financial] if they believe their method is the best for the continued development of players... what evidence do they have, beyond simply their belief it's the best method? Since it is so new to the state, why not let teams likes Blue Army, Blades etc compete against them to a) give kids more options & b) see what is the best method. If their method wins out then great, the Blades & BA will either fade or completely disappear.

Additionally, if I could push back on one thing you said directly Elliott, why does being competitive and developmental have to be at odds with each other? I feel like not only can they coexist but often enhance each other.

Just some thoughts on the topic, love the discussion

[The51]

5-3 loss at the hands of the Jr. Eagles

Uphill battle for the boys from here on out

[westsidescout]

5-3 loss at the hands of the Jr. Eagles

Uphill battle for the boys from here on out

Jr Eagles used their size to have their way with the smaller Lakers the first two periods. Lakers did get feisty in the 3rd but it was too little, too late.

Shattuck u14's started slow but imposed their will late in 2nd and 3rd en route to 9-1 win with 9 different scorers.