For what it's worth, I don't think anyone broke the rules with the transfers that have been discussed. Bent them? Violated the spirit? Maybe. But the MSHSL transfer rule gives an absolute free pass to transfers during high school if you move your primary residence. Most of the families I'm aware of either sold a house and bought a new one, or rented an apartment and at least went through the motions of living there full time (and proving otherwise is outside the MSHSL budget). Moving is one of the exceptions to the rule that I think was pretty well intentioned (like getting bullied at your school, or you can't afford a private school that you attend anymore). Mom gets a new job and the family moves from Eagan to White Bear Lake to be closer? Probably shouldn't punish the kid. Like any rule, though, it has to be defined precisely, and people start looking for ways to game those specifics. There's merit to a clear and absolute one year penalty, but it would be punitive and unfair in some situations. Whatever loopholes get left in, people jump through (especially those with the resources to do so). The gaming of the rules ebb and flow, though, and for whatever reason, the '04 and '05 group seems to have been particularly invested in gaming the rules.
As to the last Slap Shot comment - I'm sorry you were so offended by my analysis. It wasn't intended to be mean spirited to kids or the Tonka community. To recapitulate my argument:
- Fantastic team, clearly second best in the state,
- Nevertheless, overrated, in spite of the very high level of achievement, because of how much talent moved in (they should have been better), and because of birth month effects around individual players (the kids aren't as good as their reputation),
- That was reflected in a 7 loss season, but also in the championship game which was fantastic from a fan perspective - GWG scored with less than two minutes, come from behind, close game - but which was close because of excess puck luck on Tonka's part and poor officiating, along with a bad penalty taken late. All in all Andover out-skilled and out-played Tonka. Those factors meant it could have been lopsided, which is how I perceived the quality of opportunities net of officiating, and how I perceive the relative quality of the two teams.
- Admiration for a leadership gesture after the game - which was intended to highlight a positive about one kid, not denigrate every other kid on the team.
I heard loud and clear that you disagreed. That's great! Discussions are more productive and interesting when there are opposing points of view. Your argument consisted of calling me biased. Yes, I am. I have experiences and perspectives that have shaped my thinking that are different than yours. Those have biased me to observe things in a certain way. You are biased, too, for the same reason. We all have biases. That's why discussions should be rooted, in my opinion, in laying out arguments, and listening respectfully to opposing points of view. In an ideal world, I would want to follow the precepts laid out by Dan Dennett about respectful debate:
- You should attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly, and fairly that your target says, “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way.”
- You should list any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
- You should mention anything you have learned from your target.
- Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
That's a high bar, but it's what I try to live up to, even on an anonymous message board. I probably succeed rarely, at best. But it's my goal. I included it here because of how highly I think of it as an approach to debate, especially in light of the times in which we live.
Finally, the subject matter at hand include chidren and young adults. I hope I haven't offended anyone with negative comments about kids (including even any of my pretty mild ones about hockey play). Kids are works in progress, so I try to avoid anything along the lines of "this kid is..." I try to focus on actions, rather than individuals, including with respect to hockey plays. Kids make bad choices (or bad plays) sometimes - they aren't defined by them. If I have erred by making a comment someone saw as critical of a kid, I apologize - it wasn't my intention. I acknowledge that I engage in snark a bit here ("message board police," etc), but I believe it to be solely targeted at posters, not the kids. If I've gone over the line in that regard, or if you are a kid posting and I've been snarky towards you, I apologize.
I love the game, like having an outlet to disucss it, and wish nothing but the best for all kids on their paths towards their goals. Thanks to those of you who read this far!
2022 Class AA State Tournament
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
Re: 2022 Class AA State Tournament
Great post j4241. I appreciate the time it probably took you to address a couple of individual posters and had not heard the Dan Dennett thing...that is good stuff!
I have a kid who graduated a couple seasons ago but I still love girls hockey, still attend many games each year, miss it along with my kid being/playing at home, and love reading this board when it is active!
I hope that all of you can enjoy every minute you can of your kid playing in the greatest place to train and play girls hockey! I do NOT think it would have been fun to do the things that my daughters college teammates and families did in Canada and other parts of the country!
I have a kid who graduated a couple seasons ago but I still love girls hockey, still attend many games each year, miss it along with my kid being/playing at home, and love reading this board when it is active!
I hope that all of you can enjoy every minute you can of your kid playing in the greatest place to train and play girls hockey! I do NOT think it would have been fun to do the things that my daughters college teammates and families did in Canada and other parts of the country!
Re: 2022 Class AA State Tournament
Thank you! In fairness, those rules of polite discourse are ones I learned from Dennett in Intuition Pumps and Other Tools for Thinking, but are actually from Anatol Rapaport (which Dennett cited but I forgot when posting earlier), an American mathematician and developer of the tit-for-tat strategy in the iterated prisoners dilmena contest from the early 80s (a whole other interesting topic). The world would be a better place if we all tried to follow them. It is a nearly iron-clad antidote to the strawmen argument style that dominates modern discussion.
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PhunnsieMcHockeyDad
- Posts: 119
- Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:02 am
Re: 2022 Class AA State Tournament
Appreciate this discussion - a couple of thoughts...
Tonka Talent - from the get-go there were questions about how all that individual talent would work together. Clearly they can play and I agree that they're the second best team in the state. They'll be more seasoned when we reconvene in November and I suspect maturity and some lessons learned will make them that much better.
Sadura - My daughter has played with her and I have spent a little time on the bench with her during games and around the rink. She marches to the beat of her own drum for sure, but I have not met a kid that loves the game more and works harder at it. She is what she is, and that's a huge part of the appeal. Crazy skills, hammer shot, giant compete level..she will learn from the mistakes made during this tournament and I suspect she's right there with Boerger as a strong favorite for Ms. Hockey next Spring. She's a really good kid too....
Also - there was mention of a top Skipper Skater consorting with the Andover kids after the game. Sorry, that's girls hockey and there's nothing wrong with it. I saw it too, Sadura and Goettl skate together all summer and I assume they're pals. The top girls spend alot of time together and grow close. It doesn't mean they don't compete when they're on opposite benches, but go to any girls HS game anywhere and you'll see that happen. Every kid handles those situations differently - when my daughter's team got knocked out she was pissed/crushed and couldn't do the post game meetup....but I wouldn't have had a problem either way.
Transfers, etc - It's really not as bad as it's being portrayed. I don't know the full story on all of the Tonka girls but Lindsay came home to her public school and Hemps moved in after leaving a program they played a huge part in building. Andover is also a community that is investing in their schools and facilities and you can still get a nice home and some green space for a decent price. It's mostly about hockey but not the entire equation. The are also plenty of stories about transfers that did spend a year playing JV (Anecdotally - Maddie Kaiser at Holy Family, Ellie Saurauer was WBL's leading scorer and spent last season playing JV at Gentry, two girls came to CDH in December and are JV bound until December 2022....there are probably more) so I think the MSHSL does a pretty good job of applying the rule of law.
I thought the title game was as good as you'll find in Girls' Hockey. Two great teams with different styles of play...my gosh Andover is going to be tough to beat next season too, hats off to them for what they've built. Here in MN we're so fortunate to have a community that gives our girls a chance to play the game at this level. As a parent I wouldn't change anything about it.
Tonka Talent - from the get-go there were questions about how all that individual talent would work together. Clearly they can play and I agree that they're the second best team in the state. They'll be more seasoned when we reconvene in November and I suspect maturity and some lessons learned will make them that much better.
Sadura - My daughter has played with her and I have spent a little time on the bench with her during games and around the rink. She marches to the beat of her own drum for sure, but I have not met a kid that loves the game more and works harder at it. She is what she is, and that's a huge part of the appeal. Crazy skills, hammer shot, giant compete level..she will learn from the mistakes made during this tournament and I suspect she's right there with Boerger as a strong favorite for Ms. Hockey next Spring. She's a really good kid too....
Also - there was mention of a top Skipper Skater consorting with the Andover kids after the game. Sorry, that's girls hockey and there's nothing wrong with it. I saw it too, Sadura and Goettl skate together all summer and I assume they're pals. The top girls spend alot of time together and grow close. It doesn't mean they don't compete when they're on opposite benches, but go to any girls HS game anywhere and you'll see that happen. Every kid handles those situations differently - when my daughter's team got knocked out she was pissed/crushed and couldn't do the post game meetup....but I wouldn't have had a problem either way.
Transfers, etc - It's really not as bad as it's being portrayed. I don't know the full story on all of the Tonka girls but Lindsay came home to her public school and Hemps moved in after leaving a program they played a huge part in building. Andover is also a community that is investing in their schools and facilities and you can still get a nice home and some green space for a decent price. It's mostly about hockey but not the entire equation. The are also plenty of stories about transfers that did spend a year playing JV (Anecdotally - Maddie Kaiser at Holy Family, Ellie Saurauer was WBL's leading scorer and spent last season playing JV at Gentry, two girls came to CDH in December and are JV bound until December 2022....there are probably more) so I think the MSHSL does a pretty good job of applying the rule of law.
I thought the title game was as good as you'll find in Girls' Hockey. Two great teams with different styles of play...my gosh Andover is going to be tough to beat next season too, hats off to them for what they've built. Here in MN we're so fortunate to have a community that gives our girls a chance to play the game at this level. As a parent I wouldn't change anything about it.
Re: 2022 Class AA State Tournament
Good additions to the discussion!
Tonka - Not sure if "working together" was the issue - disjointedness doesn't seem like it was to me - they just weren't as good as they and others thought they would be (though they were very, very good!).
Sadura - Interesting additional color - appreciate that it was very positive. I hope my response is perceived that way, too. She's a great player, and it's a bit early for 2023 Ms. Hockey prognostication, but it made me think about how I would build a team from available talent. Not a perfect proxy for Ms. Hockey, but if my opinions are on target it should certainly correlate. I'd start with a goalie or D, but at forward I would likely take six '23s before her in building a high school team (Boerger, Morrison, Lindsay, Retrum, Sajevic and Broz - 5 centers and a wing) and would consider Higuchi (a wing). The centers are more valuable because of the position they can play, and the wings because they are equal or better offensively. She's an impact scorer - that's her role, but even in selecting a likely impact scorer at the college level there are two I would pick over her (Boerger and Morrison) and I would also consider several more (Lindsay, Sajevic and Retrum) - I think Higuchi and Broz will be good college players, but less likely in a role as an impact scorer). That's not a knock on anything specific about Sadura - clearly in the vicinity of the top 5 or 6 in the '23 class and I think she will be good for UMD and play a role early - just a belief there are more talented forwards. In terms of Ms. Hockey, she has a huge reputational tailwind - two years as all state (some of those I mentioned not recognized at all yet) and two years playing in the state tournament - which makes her a shoe-in as a semi-finalist/top 10 (even considering there will be 2 D, at least, and likely spots for one of the Warroad kids and VanBatavia). But I think the competing talent makes puts her outside of "strong favorite," at least in my opinion.
Fraternizing - I agree about post-game socializing - that's a feature not a bug of girls hockey.
Transfers - agree to disagree, partly because of what you said - some kids play JV because they can't afford the shenanigans to skirt the rule. It shouldn't be something only available to the wealthy.
Title Game - agreed!
Tonka - Not sure if "working together" was the issue - disjointedness doesn't seem like it was to me - they just weren't as good as they and others thought they would be (though they were very, very good!).
Sadura - Interesting additional color - appreciate that it was very positive. I hope my response is perceived that way, too. She's a great player, and it's a bit early for 2023 Ms. Hockey prognostication, but it made me think about how I would build a team from available talent. Not a perfect proxy for Ms. Hockey, but if my opinions are on target it should certainly correlate. I'd start with a goalie or D, but at forward I would likely take six '23s before her in building a high school team (Boerger, Morrison, Lindsay, Retrum, Sajevic and Broz - 5 centers and a wing) and would consider Higuchi (a wing). The centers are more valuable because of the position they can play, and the wings because they are equal or better offensively. She's an impact scorer - that's her role, but even in selecting a likely impact scorer at the college level there are two I would pick over her (Boerger and Morrison) and I would also consider several more (Lindsay, Sajevic and Retrum) - I think Higuchi and Broz will be good college players, but less likely in a role as an impact scorer). That's not a knock on anything specific about Sadura - clearly in the vicinity of the top 5 or 6 in the '23 class and I think she will be good for UMD and play a role early - just a belief there are more talented forwards. In terms of Ms. Hockey, she has a huge reputational tailwind - two years as all state (some of those I mentioned not recognized at all yet) and two years playing in the state tournament - which makes her a shoe-in as a semi-finalist/top 10 (even considering there will be 2 D, at least, and likely spots for one of the Warroad kids and VanBatavia). But I think the competing talent makes puts her outside of "strong favorite," at least in my opinion.
Fraternizing - I agree about post-game socializing - that's a feature not a bug of girls hockey.
Transfers - agree to disagree, partly because of what you said - some kids play JV because they can't afford the shenanigans to skirt the rule. It shouldn't be something only available to the wealthy.
Title Game - agreed!
Re: 2022 Class AA State Tournament
Good discussion guys -
Phunn - You are probably more knowledgeable than I on the Minnetonka situation but the way I saw it of the top goalie, top 4 d and top 3 lines; half of them didn't wear a Tonka jersey last season. I heard only a few girls on the team played 10u at Tonka so if thats true, 75-80% have come in from middle school on. If this is close to true, I think its actually much worse than its being portrayed. Tonka has to have one of the largest and you could probably say one of the best youth girls programs in the state, midwest, or country. It's crap like this year that will cause up and comers in the program to see what could happen to them and start looking at alternatives.
At what point do we just go like Michigan does and have the girls team up and play little ceasears, belle tire and honeybaked? Why not? Polaris vs United Healthcare at Ritter for the state title. 3m vs medtronic in the 3rd place game? This way girls that do everything right and are loyal to their town/community at least are not led down a dead end or told 2 months before their senior year that some girls from 40 miles away are coming in and you don't have a spot.
As far as the after game consorting. Not a huge deal and i know its pretty common but given the context of the situation I thought it was absurd. Here you have 19 girls who left the ice and some are in the lockerroom balling their eyes out and then you have one on the ice bs'ing with an Andover player. The same player who put the kabosh on tonkas chances of going 4-0 to the end the season vs Holy Fam, B'ville, Edina and Andover by taking an absolutely ridiculous penalty. Talk about spring break or some all star tournnament with the girl another time. As a captain you have teammates in there that might be taking off their skates for the last time and don't have a next year. You have a goalie who got hung out to dry with 1:40 due to a selfish play. Talking to a friend on the ice after after a tuesday game in December is a little different than this one. Again just my opinion but I just cant comprehend it.
Phunn - You are probably more knowledgeable than I on the Minnetonka situation but the way I saw it of the top goalie, top 4 d and top 3 lines; half of them didn't wear a Tonka jersey last season. I heard only a few girls on the team played 10u at Tonka so if thats true, 75-80% have come in from middle school on. If this is close to true, I think its actually much worse than its being portrayed. Tonka has to have one of the largest and you could probably say one of the best youth girls programs in the state, midwest, or country. It's crap like this year that will cause up and comers in the program to see what could happen to them and start looking at alternatives.
At what point do we just go like Michigan does and have the girls team up and play little ceasears, belle tire and honeybaked? Why not? Polaris vs United Healthcare at Ritter for the state title. 3m vs medtronic in the 3rd place game? This way girls that do everything right and are loyal to their town/community at least are not led down a dead end or told 2 months before their senior year that some girls from 40 miles away are coming in and you don't have a spot.
As far as the after game consorting. Not a huge deal and i know its pretty common but given the context of the situation I thought it was absurd. Here you have 19 girls who left the ice and some are in the lockerroom balling their eyes out and then you have one on the ice bs'ing with an Andover player. The same player who put the kabosh on tonkas chances of going 4-0 to the end the season vs Holy Fam, B'ville, Edina and Andover by taking an absolutely ridiculous penalty. Talk about spring break or some all star tournnament with the girl another time. As a captain you have teammates in there that might be taking off their skates for the last time and don't have a next year. You have a goalie who got hung out to dry with 1:40 due to a selfish play. Talking to a friend on the ice after after a tuesday game in December is a little different than this one. Again just my opinion but I just cant comprehend it.
Re: 2022 Class AA State Tournament
What you're proposing is basically Tier 1 (or Tier II) hockey. MN Hockey controls who's granted Tier 1 or Tier II status. As a means to preserve the association and HS hockey structure in this state, they do not grant any clubs or schools Tier 1 or Tier II status. On the girls side, the only teams that have Tier I or Tier II status are the Elite and Premier Prep Leagues, along with the District teams formed at the youth levels. All those entities have lose/strong/direct ties to MNH. The only club/school that has Tier 1 status on the girls side is SSM through a signed/grandfathered agreement with MNH.hwkfan wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 9:22 am At what point do we just go like Michigan does and have the girls team up and play little ceasears, belle tire and honeybaked? Why not? Polaris vs United Healthcare at Ritter for the state title. 3m vs medtronic in the 3rd place game? This way girls that do everything right and are loyal to their town/community at least are not led down a dead end or told 2 months before their senior year that some girls from 40 miles away are coming in and you don't have a spot.
Thus, "Team 3M" or "Team Medtronic" could form their own AAA teams (like OS or others) but there would be no sanctioning body to hold a state tournament under (or in this case, be able to play in the MN District Playoffs). The state tournament would have to be run independently, by a group like OS, or YYH. You would basically have teams like the old Revolution from a years ago, or even Gentry from a couple years ago, where they played a club schedule around the country for 8 months, but have no state or national championship to play for.
Re: 2022 Class AA State Tournament
I've never been a fan of the after game hugs/chit chats with opponents. Not the end of the world and maybe I'm old school, but you're there that night with your team, you shouldn't be fraternizing with the opponent. It's not like they haven't seen each other in months, you know they were chatting/snap'ing/DM'ing/tik tok'ing each other for three days leading up to the game. Win/lose, shake hands, get back to the locker room with your team. And not to pile on, but as others have said well, after a season ending game? Yikes.
A mom that asks her teenager to uproot her life to save 20 minutes on mom's morning commute is a special kind of evil.
Re: 2022 Class AA State Tournament
A true hockey mom wouldn’t ask for permission or beg for forgiveness.
Whatever she decides is absolutely right
Whatever she decides is absolutely right
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girlshockey4ever
- Posts: 147
- Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:53 am
Re: 2022 Class AA State Tournament
Being the south suburban guy that I am I went to Rochester last night for South vs North boys. I couldn't help but notice all the celebrating after goals. I've read lots on this post about girls celebrating excessively and being flashy. Kids have fun. I don't hear anyone complaining about the boys. Also after the loss the South Captain went around and hugged North kids individually. I can't believe I read posts on here ripping girls for talking to each other after the game. What do you want? Do you want them to all be stone cold killers? They are not. They 14-18 year old girls. They spend how many hours with these other girls in OS and HP. So what if they want to hug them? So what if the South Captain wants to hug his buddies on the other team?
Re: 2022 Class AA State Tournament
Who was complaining about celebrations? I thought Sadura's selfie celebration was awesome.girlshockey4ever wrote: ↑Fri Mar 04, 2022 8:28 am I've read lots on this post about girls celebrating excessively and being flashy.
Re: 2022 Class AA State Tournament
I guess I was by saying Sadura should focus on not taking dumb penalties as much as she does pre-rehearsed cellys. Call me crazy or just say blasting some someone in the numbers 3' from the boards and 187' from your net is normal behavior with the game tied 4-4 and the state title on the line; 'hey kids' will be kids.'
Who drives to Rochester to watch a section 1 game anyway?
Who drives to Rochester to watch a section 1 game anyway?