ELITE TRYOUTS - ROSTERS

Older Topics, Not the current discussion

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rudy
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Post by rudy » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:09 pm

No sarcasm below:

Let's name who has left that would be still playing HS hockey this coming season and then see how many we are talking about.

Osterberg
Fasching
Wood
Hartley
Pilot

Someone pick it up here.

Jimbo99
Posts: 149
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 3:15 pm

Post by Jimbo99 » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:38 pm

rudy wrote:No sarcasm below:

Let's name who has left that would be still playing HS hockey this coming season and then see how many we are talking about.

Osterberg
Fasching
Wood
Hartley
Pilot

Someone pick it up here.
Kautz
Lindgren
Michaelson?

keepyourheadup
Posts: 1100
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:07 pm

Post by keepyourheadup » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:52 pm

Josh Erickson from Roseau is leaving as well. From those listed so far it looks like team southeast lost a bunch of high end guys, and still they have a very nice group of forwards.

karl(east)
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Contact:

Post by karl(east) » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:57 pm

We already have a thread on players leaving early: http://www.ushsho.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=26392

Slap Shot
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Post by Slap Shot » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:45 pm

Of course there are players leaving early. My point was has it been 'worse' on average the past few years?

Jimbo99
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Post by Jimbo99 » Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:16 am

It may be becoming a more accepted thing to do, but it's awfully hard to prove anything with 10, 15, or 20 names. And harder still to connect it to the Elite league. - Talent drain? I don't see it. Bad picks by the league? They do a good bit of that every year but really, that just leaves a lot of hope for those guys they pass up. Some of them may even end up as NHL draft picks in a year or so! oops. :wink:

MN93
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Post by MN93 » Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:42 pm

It was clear to anyone that was able to attend the 'try-outs' that they were merely a show and a way to generate revenue for the league.
#1: No coaches on the bench.
#2: No referee's on the ice.
#3: No whistles for pucks off the net.
#4: A one day pond hockey scrimmage

The league can claim that their goal is to have the best players participate, but their actions do not back this up.

#1: Players are granted automatic spots without having to tryout.
This is simply indefensible, no player deserves an automatic roster spot. The team selection process will never be legitimate until this practice is eliminated.

#2: Returning players are automatically on the team.
The USHL and NAHL require all of their returning players to attend tryouts and can be cut if new players perform better. Just because a player made the team one year does not mean that others aren't better the following year.

#3: There is absolutely no relation to the players being actively scouted by USHL/NAHL/College scouts and the players invited to participate in the elite league. Look at how many MN players made a USHL or NAHL team, but weren't 'good enough' to play in the elite league. And vice versa, look at how many players played in the elite league and weren't even invited to attend a USHL or NAHL try-out camp?

#4: If the Elite League was legitimately trying to have fair try-outs, the process would be clear and transparent, which it is not. It is never publicly known how many spots have already been reserved for players that don't have to try-out or if there are even any open spots at all.

#5: Interesting how the big name schools with the coaches with the most political power have 4 or 5 players represented in the elite league, while most teams have no one represented or even invited to 'try-out'. How is it that a 4th line player from a big name school with 8 points in 24 games 'earned' a roster spot?

While I acknowledge that it would be challenging to evaluate the hundreds of players across the whole state, the elite league makes no attempt to do so in any kind of systematic and fair way. If they did, there would be players represented from a much broader range of schools and geographic regions.
Fair tryouts would be held in locations across the state and would be similar in format to the way high school teams are selected.
A series of try-outs starting out with a large number of kids, with cuts after each session, until the final team is selected. Their current political system of player selection is easier and cheaper but certainly makes no attempt at fairness.

deeksquade
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Post by deeksquade » Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:54 pm

Filling these teams open spots is no easy task, with so many talented kids a tryout (game) format works best. Evaluators can observe and rate the skaters they feel "stick out" among a very talented pool. These 31 players chosen must have done something different to get the evaluators eye. Most of these skaters I've watched and followed through the years, they might not get the press or have a big name, but their skill level is very high.

keepyourheadup
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Post by keepyourheadup » Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:46 pm

While I can only speak for one pair of coaches in the elite league I know for a fact that they scout dozens of games during the High School season and are using this as the criterea for picking those kids that get automatic bids. All kids should realize that by high school you never know who might be watching. That said, just like last year most of the kids that should be there are and likely a few that should be are not.

Jimbo99
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Post by Jimbo99 » Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:26 pm

MN93 wrote:It was clear to anyone that was able to attend the 'try-outs' that they were merely a show and a way to generate revenue for the league.
#1: No coaches on the bench.
#2: No referee's on the ice.
#3: No whistles for pucks off the net.
#4: A one day pond hockey scrimmage

The league can claim that their goal is to have the best players participate, but their actions do not back this up.

#1: Players are granted automatic spots without having to tryout.
This is simply indefensible, no player deserves an automatic roster spot. The team selection process will never be legitimate until this practice is eliminated.

#2: Returning players are automatically on the team.
The USHL and NAHL require all of their returning players to attend tryouts and can be cut if new players perform better. Just because a player made the team one year does not mean that others aren't better the following year.

#3: There is absolutely no relation to the players being actively scouted by USHL/NAHL/College scouts and the players invited to participate in the elite league. Look at how many MN players made a USHL or NAHL team, but weren't 'good enough' to play in the elite league. And vice versa, look at how many players played in the elite league and weren't even invited to attend a USHL or NAHL try-out camp?

#4: If the Elite League was legitimately trying to have fair try-outs, the process would be clear and transparent, which it is not. It is never publicly known how many spots have already been reserved for players that don't have to try-out or if there are even any open spots at all.

#5: Interesting how the big name schools with the coaches with the most political power have 4 or 5 players represented in the elite league, while most teams have no one represented or even invited to 'try-out'. How is it that a 4th line player from a big name school with 8 points in 24 games 'earned' a roster spot?

While I acknowledge that it would be challenging to evaluate the hundreds of players across the whole state, the elite league makes no attempt to do so in any kind of systematic and fair way. If they did, there would be players represented from a much broader range of schools and geographic regions.
Fair tryouts would be held in locations across the state and would be similar in format to the way high school teams are selected.
A series of try-outs starting out with a large number of kids, with cuts after each session, until the final team is selected. Their current political system of player selection is easier and cheaper but certainly makes no attempt at fairness.
"93" makes many good points - No doubt it is a talented league, but it's poorly named and whether or not they get more right than wrong or vice-versa is just in the eye of the beholder. No question though, it was a terribly run "try-out".

keepyourheadup
Posts: 1100
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:07 pm

Post by keepyourheadup » Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:43 pm

On that I do agree, likely less than 10 players in the metro made it based solely on the tryout. A poor system at best.

jackstraw
Posts: 316
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?

Post by jackstraw » Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:54 pm

If you are a forward anywhere geographically close to SE or SW, only 2 forwards taken out of tryout, very sad. Unless of course you can transfer to BSM!

keepyourheadup
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Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:07 pm

Post by keepyourheadup » Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:16 pm

Fair enough Jack, hard to figure how a kid with over 60 goals in High school (in the Metro) gets passed up for one with 4. Like I said there will be a few each year that are tough to understand.

council member retired
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Post by council member retired » Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:24 pm

[quote="keepyourheadup"]Fair enough Jack, hard to figure how a kid with over 60 goals in High school (in the Metro) gets passed up for one with 4. Like I said there will be a few each year that are tough to understand.[/quote]

i agree the Lakeville South wingman belongs in the elite league

BodyShots
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Post by BodyShots » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:36 am

If you didn't make the Elite league, my advice to you is not to give up. Kevin Schultze (the top Def on HM) didn't make it last year and ended up being an early draft pick in the USHL this past year!

I wonder how many Elite league defensemen last year didn't even get a sniff from the USHL?

Vapor
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Post by Vapor » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:13 pm

I agree with MN93 regarding the way the tryout was run. With no coaches on the bench, some kids would stay out for 2 min, while some shifts lasted only 30 secs. Coaches on bench/locker room are needed.

bstarr15
Posts: 142
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:56 am

Post by bstarr15 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:06 pm

MN93 your observations are what I've heard about the tryout.
Seems much like Jr. tryouts, money maker. You invite 100+ kids and you know there are only so many spots. An honor to be invited to tryout.........not.
This is the 3rd year now that not one kid south of the Metro has been selected to play on the SE team or any team for that matter. There has to be some players capable to play in the league south of the cities,please.
I assume lots of politics come into play. Congrates to those in the league.
It is good hockey or at least it has been but, being south of the Metro I have not attended games in awhile.

seek & destroy
Posts: 328
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:38 pm

Post by seek & destroy » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:30 pm

Vapor wrote:I agree with MN93 regarding the way the tryout was run. With no coaches on the bench, some kids would stay out for 2 min, while some shifts lasted only 30 secs. Coaches on bench/locker room are needed.
I have paid attention to their tryout process over the last 4 years...it has always been a cluster. Poorly run with little or no attention being paid to the pressure the kids feel (as well as the amount of $$$ flowing into the league from the tryout). At a minimum, there should be an attempt to at least make it look like they are trying to have a legitimate tryout and not just collecting money.

This year I was impressed that they had 1 in 4 from the tryout make a team and stated so. I also think that more often than not, they pick the right players. However, there is no reason that the league can not do a better job with the process itself and take away some of the politics. They love to talk about how important getting into their league is and I think it is a huge thing for a player who wants to be scouted. Yet, the process of selection amounts to 3 - short scrimmages across an 8 hour span. That final scrimmage is pretty much a joke because the time for rest between skates is only 2-3 hours and the kids are getting tired.

Suggestions to improve things:

1) Why not use a model similar to Select 16 or 17? Local section tryouts that gradually work up to a statewide final tryout. This allows it to be open to more kids to start and allows #2 below.

2) Require that ALL players tryout including returning players (who may have lost a step) and the so called 'locks' that are mysteriously chosen. There is no better way to create a sense of fairness then to have all spots on every team up for grabs.

or 2b) If they are not willing to do #2 above, then post the number of open spots that they have available prior to the tryouts. This is not the Junior hockey league where fundraising is the primary objective...this is suppose to be a benefit to the MSHSL and its teams by helping to retain players in Minnesota. At least a posting will allow parents to know what the chances are of a return for their investment and the players can have a realistic idea going into the tryout.

3) Spread the tryout over 2 days - Saturday & Sunday. It is ridiculous to pile 3 tryout skates into such a short time span and, in my opinion, proves that the primary goal for the tryout is to make money and make things more convenient for the league administrators and coaches...not find the best talent. Adding a final skate (or two) on Sunday and maybe cutting some players after the first two (or 3) skates would make for a better tryout and allow players to show their best at each skate.

4) Run the tryout in a more professional manner. Have an actual ref to monitor the ice, get check-in people there early, make sure to have pucks (2 years ago they were scrambling to find pucks), have 'coaches' on a bench to limit players shifts to relatively equal lengths etc.. It seems silly that you can have such an important tryout and have such a poor excuse for staffing and operations.

5) Consider limiting the number of players who have never played a shift of H.S. hockey from making teams. It seems like the players who make an elite team as a sophomore are the ones most likely to leave the MSHSL before their senior year. The purpose of the league is to retain players in H.S. hockey. They also recently added the 'Development' league for younger players so there is less need to put them on Elite teams. Obviously there are some that you simply must take based on their tryout here or performance at Select 16 or 17 camps but the emphasis should be on providing an outlet for seniors to get noticed.

The Elite league is a HUGE deal for kids and their parents. The creators of the league have done a great job of making sure people know how much getting into their league can help you get seen at a higher level. On a regular basis they have articles talking about how many of their players got drafted by the NHL, recruited by a D1 school or picked up by the USHL league. The Hockey Hub has given them a prominent spot on their site as well as the LPH magazine giving them special exposure that no other league gets. There is no question that their games are well attended by scouts and it can really add to a players chances to get noticed.

The league administrators should go out of their way to treat the team selection process with the respect and thoughtfulness that it deserves given how important making this league can be to a player and his family.

muckandgrind
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Post by muckandgrind » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:46 pm

MN93 wrote:It was clear to anyone that was able to attend the 'try-outs' that they were merely a show and a way to generate revenue for the league.
#1: No coaches on the bench.
#2: No referee's on the ice.
#3: No whistles for pucks off the net.
#4: A one day pond hockey scrimmage

The league can claim that their goal is to have the best players participate, but their actions do not back this up.
Not to defend this league, but I don't see why a tryout needs coaches, refs, and whistles. I've been an evaluator countless times at all levels, and I've never needed those things to help me determine a player's skill level. I'm looking for skating, passing, shooting, rink awareness, and hustle. NONE of those skills require a referee or a whistle to make apparent to the people evaluating.

As a matter of fact, a "pond hockey scrimmage" is a very good way to judge a kid's talent.

No cones, no whistles, just play.....

nickel slots
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Location: Northern Southern Minnesota

Post by nickel slots » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:19 pm

If the league posted how many spots were actually available, I would be willing to bet that there would be a lot of kids & their families that would find something better to do with their tryout fee. For instance, if I was a forward from the southern part of the state (metro & south), I would look at the number of positions available (2), roll my eyes, shake my head and cuss a little. Then I'd take that tryout fee to buy a buttload of leeches and head out to the lake with my family and/or friends.

Which is precisely why the scam artists that run the league would never EVER publicize how many spots are actually available. They rely on that $ to offset their costs to run the league.

Even so, I don't think anybody in their right mind would ever argue if the veterans were granted an exemption. Same goes for the kids that advance to the national level of the 16 & 17 programs. Outside of those kids (somebody could easily figure out how many spots they take up), the rest of the spots should be filled through a tryout.

Think about it... if they played their cards right, they'd have a lot more kids trying out. They could have open tryouts one weekend in the metro, another the next weekend up north, then have an "invite only" tryout based solely on kids that attended one of the two previous camps. From there, the coaches pick their teams. The metro kids that can't make the metro tryout (baseball, family vacation, etc) go up north the next weekend, and vice versa.

Rather than getting one fee from 6 teams worth of kids, they could at least double that amount for the open camps only... then charge another amount (I think they would have to cut the fee in half for the 2nd weekend) for the kids that get to the invite level. Everybody wins.

If an 8th grader is good enough to make it through these tryouts, sign him up. If you're a senior and you get don't make one of the teams, you have nobody to blame but yourself. Or you can blame your parents because they only spent $30,000 to get you to that point.

Geez... maybe I should just start my own league?
Don't sweat the small stuff.
It's all small stuff.

northwoods oldtimer
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:01 pm

Agree

Post by northwoods oldtimer » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:34 pm

Consider limiting the number of players who have never played a shift of H.S. hockey from making teams. It seems like the players who make an elite team as a sophomore are the ones most likely to leave the MSHSL before their senior year. The purpose of the league is to retain players in H.S. hockey. They also recently added the 'Development' league for younger players so there is less need to put them on Elite teams. Obviously there are some that you simply must take based on their tryout here or performance at Select 16 or 17 camps but the emphasis should be on providing an outlet for seniors to get noticed.
S&D very well stated. The younger kids SHOULD go to Elite D league. A newbie from bantam does not need to play in this league at all.
The Elite league is a HUGE deal for kids and their parents. The creators of the league have done a great job of making sure people know how much getting into their league can help you get seen at a higher level. On a regular basis they have articles talking about how many of their players got drafted by the NHL, recruited by a D1 school or picked up by the USHL league. The Hockey Hub has given them a prominent spot on their site as well as the LPH magazine giving them special exposure that no other league gets. There is no question that their games are well attended by scouts and it can really add to a players chances to get noticed.

The league administrators should go out of their way to treat the team selection process with the respect and thoughtfulness that it deserves given how important making this league can be to a player and his family.

Your assessment is absolutely correct! Great comments Seek & Destroy

Jimbo99
Posts: 149
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 3:15 pm

Post by Jimbo99 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:34 pm

muckandgrind wrote:
MN93 wrote:It was clear to anyone that was able to attend the 'try-outs' that they were merely a show and a way to generate revenue for the league.
#1: No coaches on the bench.
#2: No referee's on the ice.
#3: No whistles for pucks off the net.
#4: A one day pond hockey scrimmage

The league can claim that their goal is to have the best players participate, but their actions do not back this up.
Not to defend this league, but I don't see why a tryout needs coaches, refs, and whistles. I've been an evaluator countless times at all levels, and I've never needed those things to help me determine a player's skill level. I'm looking for skating, passing, shooting, rink awareness, and hustle. NONE of those skills require a referee or a whistle to make apparent to the people evaluating.

As a matter of fact, a "pond hockey scrimmage" is a very good way to judge a kid's talent.

No cones, no whistles, just play.....
Because coaches on bench can help evaluate. More importantly, they can ensure some measure of parity in shift length. Kid's left on their own tend to abuse that. Refs on ice keep guys from getting too cheap and/or ignoring offsides etc... Enforced rules help players know what to expect.
It should be run like they give a damn.

bstarr15
Posts: 142
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:56 am

Post by bstarr15 » Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:57 am

I know that part of the process goes back to xposure camp at SSM which is run by this same group. As well the Selects or Advanced 16's and 17's is really a big part of the evaluations for this league. They make the automatic pick decisions at the end of the final 54 as well as some of those that are locks but had other hockey commitments and probably they are the correct picks for those kids.
S&D you make very good points and must agree. A one day tryout to fill the unknown # of slots is crazy and many teams had summer Tourney's that same weekend. I just think it's biased that not one southern kid can make the Elite league and if they ran the tryout as described then all I can see is it making money to support the league. It needs some better direction and selection process as they do promote the league and it's a big deal to the kids but not fair when it's handled as such.
Still very good hockey and chance for those that get to play to showcase there stuff. Good luck to all that made it.

rudy
Posts: 358
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 7:25 am

elite

Post by rudy » Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:08 pm

So, if what's stated above is true -- the selections have some implicit connection to tournaments starting with the Xposure event -- let's add up what kind of expense is needed from beginning to end. Probably looking at about $1K just in registration, on top of travel costs (maybe hotel for farflung participants).

old goalie85
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Post by old goalie85 » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:36 pm

Both the Forest Lake kids "made it" without trying out. Both are very good players and should be there in my opinion. C.J. has a broken ankle from baseball season,& can't skate untill next week. Kohls played last year.

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