Best program ever?

centerman · Post by **centerman** » Wed Jul 24, 2002 6:55 am

Of these who would you put as the best? Edina, Eveleth, Int'l Falls, Jefferson, or Roseau. I would personally lean towards Edina and Roseau because of Consistency. Jefferson may well be in another 10 to 20 years.

Sparlimb · Post by **Sparlimb** » Wed Jul 24, 2002 1:36 pm

How can you judge best program ever? You would have to set credible types of criteria. We know who has the most championships. We know who has the most appearances. But could you have South St. Paul in your list? I don't see why not, they have been to the tournament throughout it's history, probably more consistantly then any other team. About Hill-Murray, they are a constant going 19 times in the 28 years they have been eligible. Not a great record in championshpi games but better then South St. Paul. Jefferson certainly had the best program in the 90's and you can't argue with their record in championship games. So, while it's a nice quesiton to ponder, it would be hard to get anyone to agree how to judge such a question.

petey1321 · Post by **petey1321** » Wed Jul 24, 2002 5:14 pm

Judging performance based on appearances in the state tournament is not the best way to do it, in my opinion. Just look at this year, for example. Would anyone--ANYONE--have said that Lakeville's state tournament team was better than Duluth East's non-tourney team? Of course not. It all depends on your section. I think you have to look at how they've done over their program's duration. Hill-Murray, Jefferson, and Edina are contenders almost every single year (and an "off year" by any of those teams would gladly be taken by about 80% of the teams in the state as a good year), and that's how I think you should judge a program.

jr · Post by jr » Wed Jul 24, 2002 8:12 pm

That is a tough question. If I had to guess I would say Edina if you include Edina East. Roseau has also been very impressive. Jefferson will probably be the choice down the road because they have built a wonderful program. The word ever keeps them out of being #1. I falls has had a lot of good years but they are class A now so that pretty much eliminates them. Eveleth has not been a factor for decades.

hubbaa · Post by **hubbaa** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 8:52 am

Tough question that would have to have qualifiers placed on it. One qualifier I would insist would be the consistent greatness with longevity. Roseau would be probably on top, Edina (including East and West) would be there. I think SSP would have to be mentioned somewhere, even though the past ten years they have had very little.

Videoscout · Post by **Videoscout** » Fri Jul 26, 2002 12:15 pm

No doubt in my mind. The answer is  Roseau. You have to look at the whole picture historically ... and appearances at the State Tournament is the best criteria I can think of (over other ones presented). You also have to consider what kind of competition a team faced  to get to the state tournament; Roseau had to beat the Warroads, the Thief River Falls (historically TRF was a powerhouse), the Eveleths, the Greenways (and other Section 7 powerhouses back in the "back door" days).  Jefferson is clearly the program of today ... but they cannot stake claim to the title of "best program" simply because they haven't had enough history ... ala Tiger Woods cannot claim best golfer ever until he surpasses Jacks feats. We are talking 1945-present, not 1990-present. Just like the best team ever: how do you define it? How do you compare it from one era to the next? If you're talking biggest, fastest, most-talented in depth, and toughest competition throughout the year I would have to believe Bloomington Jefferson would take the cake. Just like  Mike Tyson would have whooped  Joe Louis in both of their primes. Just like todays  Detroit Red Wings would have whooped the 1980's Gretzky-led  Edmonton Oilers. Point is ... you can't really compare  era to era because the competition has evolved to higher levels in recent times. So you have to look at overall history and factor in all variables underlying and linking the past to present. Roseau has my vote. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... s/pimp.gif ALT=":hat"> - "But hey ... it's only my opinion ... I want to hear other arguments as well!"

petey1321 · Post by **petey1321** » Fri Jul 26, 2002 11:35 pm

Well, like I say, I don't know how to judge this properly. But, I think you have to give some sort of thought to whether a program even existed over a certain period. I mean, Jefferson wasn't even a school until 1970. I would say that, within reason (read: excluding very, very new schools like Eastview), you should judge a program from the time it started, not simply judging from how it did since 1945 (or whenever) onwards.

hubbaa · Post by **hubbaa** » Mon Jul 29, 2002 10:32 am

Petey, Even if we look at 1970 and on Jefferson still wouldn't rate on top. I think we would be looking at Edina and possibly Hill. But one has to look at the entire picture which certainly includes before 1970. Which is why Roseau wins by a landslide. A team has to have greatness over a long period of time to prove that in every decade it played in, regardless of the economic situation, wars, tragedies, and all unforeseen circumstances it still somehow was considered among the best. I think most of us could look to Roseau and see this. If Jefferson can have another good 30 years I would have to consider them, but not now. They were the team of the 90's. My question is, who do you think the team of the 2000-09 will be? My early indications tell me AHA...

joe lulic · Post by **joe lulic** » Mon Jul 29, 2002 1:30 pm

Roseau has to be it. They have won 6 titles and have 29 appearances. The kicker is they have a recent title(1999). Edina is a close second. Jefferson hasnt had enough time. International Falls has 6 titles too but they are only a memeory. Even I dont remember Eveleth. Roseau has the stats and the longevity.

OleGreenway · Post by **OleGreenway** » Mon Jul 29, 2002 2:48 pm

1. Roseau - Number of state titles, section titles, and the quality of the program from day one makes it an easy choice as the best. 2. Edina - Had decent teams even in the late 50's and early 60's even though they did not make state. A dominant powerhouse in the late 60's and the 70's. 3. Bloomington Jefferson - Team of the 90's. 4. Hill-Murray - Lot of state appearances from a weak section, but almost always performed as a quality team at state. Good in the 70's, 80's, and 90's. Sorry, South St. Paul doesn't make my list. Poor showings in the state tournament is more of a statement about the weak competition in their region and section than about their success in making the state tournament.

petey1321 · Post by **petey1321** » Mon Jul 29, 2002 5:14 pm

I certainly won't argue with Roseau being up there on top. I might have a few years ago until they won the state tourney again, but they've shown their program can still be a powerhouse even with lower numbers than many teams that play Class A. All I was saying is that it's silly to compare how teams like Jefferson or any other relatively new metro program like EP or whatever have done since 1946 to teams that actually existed in 1946. As for the team of the next decade, it's quite hard to say. There were rumblings around Bloomington that much of the very talented Jefferson PeeWee A team was leaning towards Holy Angels instead of JHS, which would certainly raise AHA's chances and seriously diminish Jefferson's. Then again, I have no idea how long Trebil is planning on staying around, and when he leaves or retires, who knows? I'd have to say that, based on recent history and the performance of their youth teams (and again, depending on how well these private schools do in recruiting--or is it attracting?--the best players to their high schools), Duluth East has a very good shot at being the team of the 00-09 decade.

centerman · Post by **centerman** » Mon Jul 29, 2002 9:35 pm

If we go by what the youth programs do there are a few teams that stick out the past few years in pee wees and bantams. Moorhead, Duluth East, White Bear, Centennial,and Jefferson. Problem is so many kids move around that upstart programs like Centennial may never be able to reach elite status. I would look for the power to stay with East, Moorhead and Jefferson. White Bear just has trouble getting it done at the high school level.

hubbaa · Post by **hubbaa** » Tue Jul 30, 2002 10:04 am

I guess the reason why I choose AHA for possible team of this decade is because once a private school establishes themselves as an elite program they will continue to attract good players from around the metro. I think AHA has established itself, and like Hill, they will begin to draw from much of the metro regardless of who the coach is.

baderisapunk · Post by **baderisapunk** » Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:54 am

To set the record straight, I. Falls actually has 7 titles and is the only team to ever win 6 (one)tournament titles. That record unfortunately can never be matched with the two class system.

petey1321 · Post by **petey1321** » Tue Jul 30, 2002 7:30 pm

7 titles, maybe, but 7 state titles, I think not. We can all agree--at least I sure hope we can all agree--that winning the Class A "State" tournament is not nearly the same thing as winning the Class AA tourney, and I can't imagine any reason why we should start talking about I Falls having "7" state championships. I mean, let's not get ridiculous.

BDPP · Post by **BDPP** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 12:34 am

looking back on previous posts...Jefferson's peewee a team 2 years was 65-0 (something close to that but undefeated noetheless)and one would think state title their senior year forsure. but when was the last time a team who won the peewee a or bantam a titles won the state tourney? I don't knwo the answer so whoever does... secondly, all of jeffersons players in that age group most likely will go to AHA, Blake, or H-M. Which is REAL gay. Their best player, an 7th grader called JHS's new coach and said if he isn't on the team as an 8th grader he is transferring and the coach wisely said leave our program. That play is peter mueller, i believe he avergaed over 2.5 points a game as a peewee adn 2 or so as a bantam, could be wrong not up to date on their stats but that is an overview of jeffersons young talent.

centerman · Post by **centerman** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 7:11 am

BDPP: I agree with you about teams that win at the youth level. That's why I listed teams that have been solid for a few years. I didn't list Wayzata this years Bantam champs because for all I know they may just have a handfull of real good 9th graders, which doesn't equate to success at the high school level. Moorhead, East, Centennial, Jefferson, White Bear have been solid for a number of years at the youth level now. Centennial is the unknown quanity in the bunch. I believe they have been in the state pee wee tourney 4 years in a row and their bantams were state champs two years ago and last year they were VFW champs. I would say that says they have talent throughout the program.

Videoscout · Post by **Videoscout** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 11:19 am

You all have valid points. I would also like to mention that  Hill-Murray is a very worthy candidate and probably the best candidate if you consider 1975-present.  1975 was when the State High School league finally  wised up and allowed private schools to compete in the State High School Tournament (which made the field that much stronger).  Hill-Murray was  second to none during that stretch as far as state hockey tournment appearances. If they had been allowed to compete since the onset of their program ... they could have indeed taken the "overall" picture title away from  Roseau. (But I am not sure how long  St. Paul Hill's history goes back). Also ... petey has a strong argument with  Jefferson being the "current program" champion of programeers. If "current program" is defined as 1990-present ... then  Jefferson would be the winner. However ... looking at all things considered ... I would still have to believe  Roseau to be the program to carry that reputation. Many older programs like  Itn'l Falls, Edina, Eveleth, So. St. Paul and St. Paul Johnson had their opportunities to stake claim to that title at certain points throughout their histories, but it was Roseau that emerged as the choice, through what they've accomplished throughout the ages. Another trivia question for you history buffs .... <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... s/pimp.gif ALT=":hat"> - "Which hockey program (existing or not) is/was the  oldest program in Minnesota High School Hockey?"

joe lulic · Post by **joe lulic** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 2:29 pm

Another reason for Roseau is they have 5 Runner up trophies. That means in 29 trips they have been to the game 11 times and have won it as recently as 1999. If there was a program that won 12 times but hadnt done anything for the last 20 years , you would have a difficult time and more discussion but the other programs mentioned just cant put up the numbers, except Edina, who is a close second. SSP has never won it (the Vikings of High School Hockey). Falls hasnt won it for 30 years and is now class A. Johnson has the same issues. Hill - Murray has won it twice. Who knows how they would have done if allowed to play before 1975. Jefferson has won 5 times but it has been 8 years and guys like Crowley etc. that were responsible for that kind of success dont come along that often, even in a program as great as Jefferson. With all of the player movement that goes on, it is really hard to predict who will be a great program going forward. It will be a program that has got the numbers and can keep their best kids. Maybe look at Roseville.

goldy313 · Post by **goldy313** » Wed Jul 31, 2002 9:54 pm

After much thinking, I rate the greatest programs this way: 1)Roseau, the shear number and quality of appearances along with the longevity of the program make it number 1. 2)South St. Paul, although they haven't one the big one, through the years they have been consistently winning. While social and economic conditions moved people away from SSP, they maintained a quality program. The working class community has persevered through the decades. 3)International Falls, while success has been fleeting for 30 years they were a top notch program. Unfortunately the 2 class system has lowered their future prestige. 4)Edina, what Jefferson is trying to obtain, namely the consistency over 20 years. 5)Bloomington (as a school district) since it was a largely rural community in the early '60's until now you can't go more than a couple of years without a team from Bloomington in the Tourney. Jefferson has had the most success, but growing from 1 to 3 high schools in a relatively short time and maintained quality throughout.

centerman · Post by **centerman** » Thu Aug 01, 2002 7:48 am

After further research here is my list. 1. Roseau: The titles in the 90's secure this. Almost always have a solid team. 2. International Falls: 6 titles in one class. I believe no losing seasons under legend Larry Ross (retired in late 80's). Class A keeps them from #1 3. Edina/Edina East: Great Program but not around as long as the two above. Probably will be #1 in the future unless Jefferson goes on another roll. 4. Tie: Jefferson and Hill Murray. The two best programs in the past 20 years. Hill is somewhat of a dissappointment only winning two titles. Jefferson is the best of the 90's for sure. I cannot include Eveleth since they did most of their damage in the 40's and 50's. This team was decent in the 70's but still had trouble competing for titles in the IRC. So. St. Paul is a wonderful program, but came out of a weak section many years. If they had a few titles they would be listed. Over the years many of the teams above would have appeared in the tourney more often, had they been playing in So.St. Paul's section. An example is a number of twin cities teams that are ranked in the top ten all year yet don't make it out of their section, because the competition is so stiff. Section 7 was this way for many years as well when the IRC had numerous teams near the top of the state rankings.

hubbaa · Post by **hubbaa** » Thu Aug 01, 2002 8:30 am

Just to be considered for this is an honor for any community and especially for the many coaches, volunteers etc... A couple people above mentioned about the weak section SSP comes out of. It has been terrible for the past 15 years excluding this year and probably forward. How many times has SSP made the tourney during that stretch? It isn't as though they padded its tourney appearances during this stretch of time. We can look at the past 15 years and assume it was always this bad, but the facts will not bear that out over the long haul. I don't think it has ever been the best, usually it averaged about in the middle. We forget how many times the region alignments have changed and who used to be in them and who wasn't. Just like Jefferson last year, they still were in a decent region, but had they remained in the previous one they wouldn't have made the tourney last year. So it goes with all teams, it is kind of cyclical and appears to be coming around again for the SSP region. Based on what that program has done over the course of time is something to be proud of for the folks in Cowtown. Do they deserve #1 ranking? NOWAY! Top five ranking? Possibly. Top ten ranking? Absolutely, with no apologies...

joe lulic · Post by **joe lulic** » Thu Aug 01, 2002 9:21 am

It is hard to include SSP on the list and ignore Johnson. Johnson won 4 times in 22 appearances. Why HM instead of Johnson on the list? Johnson carried the water for the metro schools for years until Edina came along. If it wasnt for Johnson, we wouldnt have had a champion from the twin cities until Edina won it in 1969!! They arent at the top but I cant include SSP and not Johnson.

hubbaa · Post by **hubbaa** » Thu Aug 01, 2002 9:55 am

I agree Joe. Both are top ten, and probably closer to 4-7 spots in my book. It is sad to see what has happened to Johnson. I wonder how much longer it will have a team...

joe lulic · Post by **joe lulic** » Thu Aug 01, 2002 10:24 am

I dont know hubbaa. There is talk of combining with Harding. It is sad that there isnt a St Paul public school that can put a competitive team on the ice. And of course it snowballs with open enrollment. Innercity hockey around here has really taken a dive.

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